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Old 07-21-2012   #1
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Default Iss NFLPA Really Resisting "Beefing up" DUI Punishments?

Now, who would that benefit?

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League, union need to find better ways to deter crime
July 21, 2012, 12:09 PM EDT

On June 24, we explained that coaches who finally had gotten a chance to relax after months of hard work wouldn’t be completely relaxed, given that players left to their own devices inevitably will be arrested in the down time between the end of the offseason and the launch of training camp.

Since then, more than a third of the league’s coaches have had to deal with a member of the roster getting arrested. Specifically, 11 players have been arrested since June 24 — and with one weekend remaining until camps start to opening it’s more likely than not that the list will continue to grow.

The rash of arrests proves that the league’s current procedures for deterring bad behavior aren’t working. Now that the NFLPA has a direct financial incentive for ensuring that the game continues to thrive, the union needs to be more willing than it ever has been to support efforts to discipline the handful of players who make all of them look bad.

The NFL has indicated that the union is resisting efforts to beef up the penalties for drunk driving. But with the substance-abuse and steroids policies still not finalized in the wake of last year’s labor deal, given the ongoing HGH tug-o-war, an opportunity remains to increase the punishments, especially if the NFL would be willing to use a third party to review appeals of the sanctions imposed.

Regardless, something different needs to be done.

The good news is that, once players report to training camp, chances are that the crime spree will end. Or at least it will get better.

It definitely can’t get much worse.


As an aside, it's interesting to follow the NFL Police Blotter back to 2007
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Old 07-21-2012   #2
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Default Re: Iss NFLPA Really Resisting "Beefing up" DUI Punishments?

I think the NFLPA needs to decide what their job is, to protect the interest of the players as a group against influences that may be detrimental to the group (be it owners, the league, or other players), or to protect each and every player in every situation, no matter how stupid the player's behavior is. I'm not a lawyer, but these two things seem to be in conflict with each other on a very fundamental level.
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Old 07-21-2012   #3
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Default Re: Iss NFLPA Really Resisting "Beefing up" DUI Punishments?

Problem is "due process" pushes any penalties out, sometimes significantly. Connected, crafty lawyers can push trial dates out for many many months. How much deterrence is felt when a player is suspended one game in 2013 for a 2011 arrest?

In my fantasy football league, for fun, teams are fined $50 each time a player on their roster gets arrested for anything, regardless of the final outcome. Money goes into the prize pot.

I'd say, if you blow you go. Zero tolerance. Blow/test over the legal limit anywhere and you get 1 game suspension for first offense, 2 games for second, 3 games for 3rd. NFLPA would never do that, though.
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Old 07-21-2012   #4
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Default Re: Iss NFLPA Really Resisting "Beefing up" DUI Punishments?

FYI. David Diehl was charged in Queens mid June for driving under the influence of alcohol after crashing his BMW into parked cars. The officers detected "a strong odor of alcohol on his breath, bloodshot and watery eyes, slurred speech and to be unsteady on his feet.” Diehl blew a .182 on a breathalyzer test, more than double the legal limit. According to FPT, his rescheduled court date is September 7.
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Old 07-21-2012   #5
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Default Re: Iss NFLPA Really Resisting "Beefing up" DUI Punishments?

Why did they drop the legal limit in Texas from .10 to .08? There's no data that I know of that supports that dropping the legal limit has detered DWI's.

As far as players getting DWI's, football is a diversion. I could care less what players do in their private lives. (Excluding Carruth/Sandusky type crimes and the law deals with those situations.) I do care about players playing to the best of their abilities on Sundays.

I dont understand why fans want to serve as morality police. (Same with the govt serving as morality police.)
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Old 07-21-2012   #6
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Default Re: Iss NFLPA Really Resisting "Beefing up" DUI Punishments?

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Why did they drop the legal limit in Texas from .10 to .08? There's no data that I know of that supports that dropping the legal limit has detered DWI's.

As far as players getting DWI's, football is a diversion. I could care less what players do in their private lives. (Excluding Carruth/Sandusky type crimes and the law deals with those situations.) I do care about players playing to the best of their abilities on Sundays.

I dont understand why fans want to serve as morality police. (Same with the govt serving as morality police.)
I don't think it should be about deterrent, its about impairment and at that level, your pretty much impaired.
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Old 07-21-2012   #7
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Default Re: Iss NFLPA Really Resisting "Beefing up" DUI Punishments?

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I don't think it should be about deterrent, its about impairment and at that level, your pretty much impaired.
Or it could be about the govt being able to collect more $$$$.
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Old 07-22-2012   #8
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Default Re: Iss NFLPA Really Resisting "Beefing up" DUI Punishments?

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Or it could be about the govt being able to collect more $$$$.
The .08 BAC limit is set as studies have conclusively demonstrated that by that level there is significant cognitive and coordination impairment to the point that it will lead to 11 times the risk of being involved in a crash than a non-drinking driver, and ~7 times the risk of being involved in a fatal crash. By the time you reach the .08 BAC level, these studies have shown that your reactions and driving skills can be seriously impaired. Muscle coordination becomes poor (balance, speech, vision, reaction time). Hearing is impaired. It becomes harder to detect danger. Judgment, sef-control, reasoning and memory are impaired. Concentration is impaired. Ability to judge speed and control speed is impaired. Your brain essentially ceases to accurately process and perceive (signal detection, visual search).

Steelbtexan, feel fortunate that you live in the US. In many other countries, you would need to forget you owned a car on weekends.


Quote:

Drunk Driving: Is the Blood-Alcohol Limit Too Liberal?

By Andrew Clark Saturday, Oct. 16, 2010


It's a typical busy summer night at Banken, the most popular nightclub in Kristianstad, Sweden. The patio outside is uncomfortably crowded and breathing room is hard to come by. Nearly everyone at the club is holding some sort of drink and soon a group of teenagers by the bar begin taking body shots of tequila. Around 12:30 in the morning, throngs of cabs begin to line up along the sidewalk outside. Chances are that very few — if any people at all — drive home tonight. After all, this is Sweden, where the Blood Alcohol Content (BAC) limit for drives is a stringently low .02 g/100 ml.

Compare that to America, where the BAC limit remains at a practically libertine .08. How much is that exactly? According University of Oklahoma Police Department's BAC Calculator, a 180-lb male registers a .08 after consuming six 12 oz. beers or five gin-and-tonics in a span of two hours. Still, having the .08 standard is a legislative improvement. In previous years some states had their limit set at .15. That would be more than eight beers within two hours.
(See the E.R. costs of treating drunk drivers.)

Or look at it this way. In June, a Massachusetts state trooper and father of four was killed after pulling over a driver who reportedly registered a .20 during a breathalyzer exam. Another driver then slammed into the pulled-over car, instantly killing the trooper who was standing next to it. The lawyer for driver of the second car says his client's BAC tested at .07, which is within the legal limit. Nevertheless, both men have been charged with drunk driving, with the second driver receiving the additional charges of vehicular homicide and speeding. Both men have pleaded not guilty to the charges. According to the International Center for Alcohol Policies, only 15 other countries (including Canada and New Zealand) have the same threshold as the United States. Most European nations carry a standard of .05 or lower and a few countries, such as the Czech Republic, have zero tolerance policies.
(Why are more young women involved in deadly drunk-driving crashes?)

According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), 11,773 people died in drunk driving related accidents in the United States in 2008. As these kinds of unnecessary deaths continue happening roughly every 45 minutes, the United States has maintained its .08 standard even as other countries across the world are attempting to lower the permitted BAC for drivers.

In Sweden, which changed its BAC threshold from .05 to .02 in 1990, the results have been dramatic. According to the World Health Organization and European Commission, of road fatalities in Sweden, roughly 16% were alcohol related. In the U.S., 31.7% of traffic fatalities were alcohol related in 2007. Other countries around the world have continued to modify their standards for "drink-driving." In Switzerland, where the limit was reduced from .08 to .05 in 2005, drunk driving deaths instantly declined. France saw similar results when it lowered its limit to .05 in 1995. Changes appear to be on the horizon in other countries as well. For example, in the past few years Denmark has discussed reducing the BAC threshold to .02.

Attitudes toward drunk driving appear to oscillate between countries. People in Sweden take drunk driving laws very seriously, says Eric Larsson, 34, a Stockholm native who moved to London five years ago. Larsson said that he found the laws in England — which allows a .08 BAC — to be far less sensible. "I could never drink two pints of beer then drive home like other people go ahead and do in England," says Larsson, who believes that more countries should adopt the Swedish standard.

There have been some U.S. attempts to toughen the drunk driving laws. Senators Tom Udall, a Democrat from New Mexico, and Bob Corker, a Republican from Tennessee, introduced the ROADS SAFE Act earlier this year. The name of the proposed legislation is an acronym for "Research of Alcohol Detection Systems for Stopping Alcohol-related Fatalities Everywhere." If enacted, it would authorize $12 million annual funding for five years to the NHTSA Driver Alcohol Detection System for Safety (DADSS) program in order to develop technology within vehicles to keep intoxicated individuals from driving (pegged to the current .08 limit). What type of impact would this have? It is estimated that this technology could prevent 8,000 deaths yearly. Based on American averages, that would mean there would be roughly three hours between every drunk driving death, which is better than the current 45 minutes. However, the numbers will always be better in Sweden.
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Old 07-22-2012   #9
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Default Re: Iss NFLPA Really Resisting "Beefing up" DUI Punishments?

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
The .08 BAC limit is set as studies have conclusively demonstrated that by that level there is significant cognitive and coordination impairment to the point that it will lead to 11 times the risk of being involved in a crash than a non-drinking driver, and ~7 times the risk of being involved in a fatal crash. By the time you reach the .08 BAC level, these studies have shown that your reactions and driving skills can be seriously impaired. Muscle coordination becomes poor (balance, speech, vision, reaction time). Hearing is impaired. It becomes harder to detect danger. Judgment, sef-control, reasoning and memory are impaired. Concentration is impaired. Ability to judge speed and control speed is impaired. Your brain essentially ceases to accurately process and perceive (signal detection, visual search).

Steelbtexan, feel fortunate that you live in the US. In many other countries, you would need to forget you owned a car on weekends.
And that matters how? I'm not really getting how not hearing affects driving these days. If anything, it's the other way around.
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Old 07-22-2012   #10
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Default Re: Iss NFLPA Really Resisting "Beefing up" DUI Punishments?

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And that matters how? I'm not really getting how not hearing affects driving these days. If anything, it's the other way around.
Well as you have pointed out it is kind of what you are used to. You don't need it but if you have it you use it.
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Old 07-22-2012   #11
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Default Re: Iss NFLPA Really Resisting "Beefing up" DUI Punishments?

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Well as you have pointed out it is kind of what you are used to. You don't need it but if you have it you use it.
Sure but not what I was referring to. What I'm trying to ask are what kind of dangers are we talking about? Sirens? Ambulances? They're the distractions by alerting the drivers of them. When I said these days...people don't drive by listening anymore with the radios being standard in most cars. Cars are quieter overall. Car horns also aren't as loud as they used to be from back in the day. I'm saying that... impaired hearing... shouldn't be much of a consideration anymore, drunk or not.

Back to what you were referring to... I'm wearing hearing aids and... man... driving with all these sounds around you is just downright dangerous to me. I have to turn it off to focus on the road. Y'all are crazy. Lol.
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Old 07-22-2012   #12
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Default Re: Iss NFLPA Really Resisting "Beefing up" DUI Punishments?

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When I said these days...people don't drive by listening anymore with the radios being standard in most cars. Cars are quieter overall. Car horns also aren't as loud as they used to be from back in the day. I'm saying that... impaired hearing... shouldn't be much of a consideration anymore, drunk or not.
Honestly because the discussion was between you and I, I was thinking motorcycles and I definitely notice bikes coming up under my back wheel. But I hear you, so to speak. Hearing in a car is almost useless now days.
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Old 07-22-2012   #13
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Default Re: Iss NFLPA Really Resisting "Beefing up" DUI Punishments?

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Honestly because the discussion was between you and I, I was thinking motorcycles and I definitely notice bikes coming up under my back wheel. But I hear you, so to speak. Hearing in a car is almost useless now days.
Especially if trying to claim impaired hearing in determining a form of punishment. It should not apply at all.

A lot of my trackday supporters firmly believe that I have an advantage in being Deaf when on the track because all I do is completely focus on my line. I do not easily give way to those trying to creep up on me. I do not have that distraction. Remember, the first to enter takes the turn. You cannot take me until you are in my line of sight unless you go outside but even then... I still own the line being inside in the first place. Racing's all about being aggressive and I have the ability to be more aggressive by not being distracted by the rider behind me. I don't know if I personally agree as I feel entering my line of sight is a distraction but it definitely makes sense to me overall.
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Old 07-22-2012   #14
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Default Re: Iss NFLPA Really Resisting "Beefing up" DUI Punishments?

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A lot of my trackday supporters firmly believe that I have an advantage in being Deaf when on the track because all I do is completely focus on my line. I do not easily give way to those trying to creep up on me. I do not have that distraction.
Interesting perspective. I rely on being obstinate.

But you're right - when someone starts putting their tire under your knee it can grow into a distraction either sound or visual.
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Old 07-22-2012   #15
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Default Re: Iss NFLPA Really Resisting "Beefing up" DUI Punishments?

Nitro, I whole-heartedly agree with you re. the multiple scenarios (quiet car, loud radio, etc.) where hearing in a non hearing-impaired driver can affect the advantage of this sense. Certainly, music sound levels are a variable controllable by the driver. But I don't really want to try to get into the various arguments to these specific scenarios. That said, Nitro, it is ultimately commendable how you have in so many ways learned so well to compensate for your hearing impairment. You have heightened the use of your other senses, and in so doing have heightened "awareness" of your surroundings in such a way that many of us can only dream of. It has become so natural to you, that you may not even be aware of it or fully appreciate how important it has become for you. But for us without significant hearing deficits, we are used to relying on the combination of all of our senses. When we roll up our windows in a quiet car or crank up the radio or become affected by alcohol........well, we don't have the ability to acutely switch into an unfamiliar hypercompensation mode.......especially when our other senses may be distorted.

BTW, most hearing aids many times can be more annoying than being hearing-impaired. This is because, even though many profess to be able to enhance important sounds over background sounds, they do a poor job of doing so. They act more like a and amplifier unequipped with an equalizer. It can drive a person crazy to be able to hear birds tweeting or fans running or restaurant background noises at the same level of the voice of the person talking to you and sitting right next to you.
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Old 07-22-2012   #16
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Default Re: Iss NFLPA Really Resisting "Beefing up" DUI Punishments?

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Nitro, I whole-heartedly agree with you re. the multiple scenarios (quiet car, loud radio, etc.) where hearing in a non hearing-impaired driver can affect the advantage of this sense. Certainly, music sound levels are a variable controllable by the driver. But I don't really want to try to get into the various arguments to these specific scenarios. That said, Nitro, it is ultimately commendable how you have in so many ways learned so well to compensate for your hearing impairment. You have heightened the use of your other senses, and in so doing have heightened "awareness" of your surroundings in such a way that many of us can only dream of. It has become so natural to you, that you may not even be aware of it or fully appreciate how important it has become for you. But for us without significant hearing deficits, we are used to relying on the combination of all of our senses. When we roll up our windows in a quiet car or crank up the radio or become affected by alcohol........well, we don't have the ability to acutely switch into an unfamiliar hypercompensation mode.......especially when our other senses may be distorted.

BTW, most hearing aids many times can be more annoying than being hearing-impaired. This is because, even though many profess to be able to enhance important sounds over background sounds, they do a poor job of doing so. They act more like a and amplifier unequipped with an equalizer. It can drive a person crazy to be able to hear birds tweeting or fans running or restaurant background noises at the same level of the voice of the person talking to you and sitting right next to you.
That's fine. No need to get into it but I will respond anyway...



Deaf people don't have the ability to switch into hyper-compensation mode while drunk either. Regardless, this isn't a hearing vs Deaf thing... this is about wanting to have more legal considerations and using impaired hearing as a legal defense. Do note that I did not say hearing impaired but impaired hearing. I can't get behind that because I do not see how it applies. How can someone legally prove it affected their driving? Detecting what danger? Obviously for the Deaf, it would set a bad precedent if impaired hearing were to be a defense in a drunk driving case.

Spot on regarding hearing aids although they are much much much better than they used to be. I have the Widex Super 440 and it uses RITE technology which seems to really help with the equalizing. I like them but at the same time what I love the most about them is that on/off switch. Having the ability to turn them off is everything. I honestly feel bad for hearies.

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Old 07-22-2012   #17
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Default Re: Iss NFLPA Really Resisting "Beefing up" DUI Punishments?

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
The .08 BAC limit is set as studies have conclusively demonstrated that by that level there is significant cognitive and coordination impairment to the point that it will lead to 11 times the risk of being involved in a crash than a non-drinking driver, and ~7 times the risk of being involved in a fatal crash. By the time you reach the .08 BAC level, these studies have shown that your reactions and driving skills can be seriously impaired. Muscle coordination becomes poor (balance, speech, vision, reaction time). Hearing is impaired. It becomes harder to detect danger. Judgment, sef-control, reasoning and memory are impaired. Concentration is impaired. Ability to judge speed and control speed is impaired. Your brain essentially ceases to accurately process and perceive (signal detection, visual search).

Steelbtexan, feel fortunate that you live in the US. In many other countries, you would need to forget you owned a car on weekends.
I do feel fortunate to live in the US. But that has nothing to do with DWI laws. It has more to do with freedom. These articles are good examples of US citizens having more freedoms than other countries.

Right now it seems as though Barry is leading us down a path that European countries are currently suffering through. The DWI/Guns etc... laws will be just another example of the many many freedoms that the govt is doing a power of its citizens rights. I'm pretty sure this isn't what the founding fathers had in mind. IE.. 2nd amendment.
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Old 07-22-2012   #18
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Default Re: Iss NFLPA Really Resisting "Beefing up" DUI Punishments?

After Leonard Little and Donte Stallworth you would think players would be more aware of consequences of a DWI.
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Old 07-22-2012   #19
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Default Re: Iss NFLPA Really Resisting "Beefing up" DUI Punishments?

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That's fine. No need to get into it but I will respond anyway...



Deaf people don't have the ability to switch into hyper-compensation mode while drunk either. Regardless, this isn't a hearing vs Deaf thing... this is about wanting to have more legal considerations and using impaired hearing as a legal defense. Do note that I did not say hearing impaired but impaired hearing. I can't get behind that because I do not see how it applies. How can someone legally prove it affected their driving? Detecting what danger? Obviously for the Deaf, it would set a bad precedent if impaired hearing were to be a defense in a drunk driving case.

Spot on regarding hearing aids although they are much much much better than they used to be. I have the Widex Super 440 and it uses RITE technology which seems to really help with the equalizing. I like them but at the same time what I love the most about them is that on/off switch. Having the ability to turn them off is everything. I honestly feel bad for hearies.

Nitro, you may be interested in reading this article that covers and supports some of your points. HEARING LOSS AND DRIVING CARS

Now if one were blind, I feel very confident in saying that there would be more liikelihood of success in an auto liability case if one were to use the "twinky defense."
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Old 07-22-2012   #20
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Default Re: Iss NFLPA Really Resisting "Beefing up" DUI Punishments?

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Now if one were blind, I feel very confident in saying that there would be more liikelihood of success in an auto liability case if one were to use the "twinky defense."
Not so fast...

http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_new...or-a-spin?lite

I would love to see the look on a trooper's face if one were to pull him over.
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