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Old 07-03-2012   #21
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Default Re: PFF Three Years of Drop Rate for Wide Receivers - Sticky Fingers

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Originally Posted by disaacks3 View Post
Gaff was the first player the Texans released that I truly had an issue with. The man was money over the middle.
He wasn't released - he signed a four year contract with the Texans and played out all of it. The Texans chose not to re-sign him, but he wasn't released.
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Old 07-03-2012   #22
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Default Re: PFF Three Years of Drop Rate for Wide Receivers - Sticky Fingers

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I think the routes he is asked to run are by design not open. It's his job to confuse the defense and drag a couple of defenders a couple yards off their spot while AJ or the TE goes up the seam or on a deep in route.
Thats what I mean when I say "bi-product of design".

Traditionally, Schaub has been pretty good about spreading the ball around and not forcing plays...Aj, Od, Foster, Tate, hell even Casey have had big games. Just never seems to be the case for Walter.

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I'm looking forward to the All-22 to see if that's true. We shall see.
I dont know how much i'm really arguing the point, I like Walter. But it would be nice to have a more informed opinion.
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Old 07-03-2012   #23
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Default Re: PFF Three Years of Drop Rate for Wide Receivers - Sticky Fingers

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He wasn't released - he signed a four year contract with the Texans and played out all of it. The Texans chose not to re-sign him, but he wasn't released.
PotAto, PotAHto... His services weren't retained and he didn't sign a huge contract elsewhere. If the Texans wanted him, he'd have stayed.
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Old 07-03-2012   #24
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Default Re: PFF Three Years of Drop Rate for Wide Receivers - Sticky Fingers

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I think the Oilers cut him after his first training camp
Oilers were going to cut him after camp in '76 but actually got a late round '77 draft pick for him from Seattle. As to El Tejano's question about Giles...I don't believe he was a later rounder...maybe the Oilers moved up using that Seattle late rounder to get him I don't know, but think Giles was in there with Tim Wilson and Rob Carpenter, maybe a 3 or 4th rounder. Earl was the following draft.
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Old 07-03-2012   #25
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Default Re: PFF Three Years of Drop Rate for Wide Receivers - Sticky Fingers

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Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
I think the routes he is asked to run are by design not open. It's his job to confuse the defense and drag a couple of defenders a couple yards off their spot while AJ or the TE goes up the seam or on a deep in route. The first game that AJ was out, for instance, Walter was targeted only once, while JJ was targeted 11 times. That tells me they weren't even trying to use Walter as their #1 WR in AJ's absence.

I'm looking forward to the All-22 to see if that's true. We shall see.


I don't agree with that.

Not counting his very first year here, his receptions have decreased every year since he's been a starter. in 08 He could have been a 1000 yard receiver with maybe 6-10 more catches.

There is a reason they gave him the contract they did....And then came back later and asked him to take a pay cut...

Also, if you're talking about the Oakland game Walter was targeted 6 times according to this.

It just doesn't make any sense that they'd use KW, a guy with great hands and great route running ability, mostly as a decoy...Even when you have Jacoby Jones and ???? on the field with him.
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Old 07-03-2012   #26
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Default Re: PFF Three Years of Drop Rate for Wide Receivers - Sticky Fingers

But the thing about this offense is that it's about the reads. You don't go in with "this guy is my number 1 option" mentality. You go in with "I read the defense and based on that, I decide where I'm supposed to go." You make your pre-snap reads to get a general idea, and then generally, you follow your feet. You go through your dropback and you make specific reads with each step. And based on that information, you make your decision about who's supposed to be open and you throw it to the spot where that receiver is supposed to be.

You don't go in saying, "I'm going to target Jacoby more than KW." You target the guy that's supposed to be open based on what the defense is giving you. If you've got Jacoby and KW out there and Jacoby's getting the targets, it's because Jacoby's the one they're not covering right.

If a team decides they're going to shut down AJ, that's fine. The ball will go somewhere else and Kubes will call plays to take advantage of how you're playing AJ.

That was part of TJ's problem at times. He didn't know the reads as well as Matt does. And so he made up his mind that if he didn't know what was going on, he was going to throw it to AJ. Which isn't a bad strategy overall when AJ is healthy.
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Old 07-03-2012   #27
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Default Re: PFF Three Years of Drop Rate for Wide Receivers - Sticky Fingers

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You don't go in saying, "I'm going to target Jacoby more than KW." You target the guy that's supposed to be open based on what the defense is giving you. If you've got Jacoby and KW out there and Jacoby's getting the targets, it's because Jacoby's the one they're not covering right.
Well, that's certainly a Texans centric way of looking at things.

Maybe Jacoby is the one they're "not covering right" sometimes because he's doing a better job of getting open.

Maybe defenses consistently do a better job covering Walter because he's easier to cover...

At the end of the day though, it's apparent that neither Jacoby nor Walter lived up to the Texans' expectations. They cut Jacoby and asked Walter to reduce his salary.
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Old 07-03-2012   #28
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Default Re: PFF Three Years of Drop Rate for Wide Receivers - Sticky Fingers

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Maybe Jacoby is the one they're "not covering right" sometimes because he's doing a better job of getting open.

Maybe defenses consistently do a better job covering Walter because he's easier to cover...
We've had this discussion before. Sure, there are some plays were you drop back and look for someone to be open and there are some offenses that are supposed to work that way. But from everything I've read and heard, that's not the fundamental way the Texan's offense is supposed to work. It's not about looking for someone to get open, it's about looking at where the defense isn't and going to the guy who's supposed to be there. The routes are set up so that someone should always be open.
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Old 07-03-2012   #29
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Default Re: PFF Three Years of Drop Rate for Wide Receivers - Sticky Fingers

Anybody see where "Dropcoby Jones" was on that list?
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Old 07-03-2012   #30
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Default Re: PFF Three Years of Drop Rate for Wide Receivers - Sticky Fingers

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It's funny. All anyone ever seems to remember are two plays - the one that hit him in the back of the shoulder (which I believe was on Carr) and the one drop he had in or near the end zone. My memory is getting fuzzy on the early years, thankfully. But I do remember posting a statistical breakdown that showed Gaffney was a very good WR for the Texans. I believe it was after the '04 season, he had the highest catch percentage of anyone on the team, the fewest drops, and the most yards per catch, considerably ahead of AJ in the latter category. The gist of it was basically when he was targeted, Gaffney was a very productive receiver. Of course back then, DD was the primary target of every play LOL.
I liked Gaffney & thought he got the raw end from the fans.

Never thought he was a "very" good receiver, but thought he was as good or better than the bunch we've brought in since.

& he was young at the time.... upside, room to grow, yadda, yadda...
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Old 07-03-2012   #31
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Default Re: PFF Three Years of Drop Rate for Wide Receivers - Sticky Fingers

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I don't agree with that.

Not counting his very first year here, his receptions have decreased every year since he's been a starter. in 08 He could have been a 1000 yard receiver with maybe 6-10 more catches.
I think his production came down, because he's been splitting time with Jacoby Jones. Kubiak couldn't (wouldn't) make up his mind who was #2 on this team.

They probably took an equal number of snaps, when there should be a clear difference between the #2 & #3. I don't know if we can fault Kubiak (but I will in a minute), he had Jacoby who was pretty talented.

If it were me, I'd have made Jacoby my number 2, clearly giving him significantly more snaps & see how he responds. After two weeks & a few practices, the experiment should have been over & he should have went one way or the other.

Knowing what we know now about how Jacoby turned out, I know this isn't going to be a popular idea. But I'm talking back there after Jacoby had his "breakout" year & before signing him to a $10M contract.
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Old 07-03-2012   #32
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Default Re: PFF Three Years of Drop Rate for Wide Receivers - Sticky Fingers

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Well, that's certainly a Texans centric way of looking at things.

Maybe Jacoby is the one they're "not covering right" sometimes because he's doing a better job of getting open.

Maybe defenses consistently do a better job covering Walter because he's easier to cover...
Or maybe they knew Jacoby wasn't going to catch it.

Kinda like leaving Garnet open on the three point line until he drains a couple.

I'm being facetious here, because I thought Jacoby was more dangerous than KDub on any given play. He might not catch the ball, but if he does, & you're playing off, he just might score on you too.
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Old 07-03-2012   #33
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Default Re: PFF Three Years of Drop Rate for Wide Receivers - Sticky Fingers

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Or maybe they knew Jacoby wasn't going to catch it.

Kinda like leaving Garnet open on the three point line until he drains a couple.

I'm being facetious here, because I thought Jacoby was more dangerous than KDub on any given play. He might not catch the ball, but if he does, & you're playing off, he just might score on you too.
Probably why Andre got more catches and targets than KW too...


Maybe they didn't think he'd catch it either....
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Old 07-03-2012   #34
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Default Re: PFF Three Years of Drop Rate for Wide Receivers - Sticky Fingers

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We've had this discussion before. Sure, there are some plays were you drop back and look for someone to be open and there are some offenses that are supposed to work that way. But from everything I've read and heard, that's not the fundamental way the Texan's offense is supposed to work. It's not about looking for someone to get open, it's about looking at where the defense isn't and going to the guy who's supposed to be there. The routes are set up so that someone should always be open.
Well, I just completely disagree with you.

Every offense is designed to read defenses. If you think that the QB's are just throwing to open holes in the defense based on where they think a WR is supposed to be then you are wrong.

It's not JUST about looking for guys to get open, but at times that's part of it. Some plays are designed to get the ball into other guys' hands more but this is football. Defenses react differently to things and that is where a QB's reads come into play. You can design a play to get Andre open all you want, but if the CB and safety don't bite and he is bracketed in coverage you have to move your eyes and go somewhere else with the ball even if that was your first read.

Different QB's and different offenses go through their progressions differently.

I honestly don't think you know what you are talking about here and I'm not trying to be offensive. It's not cut and dry and this stuff changes on every play.

Some of it is just flat out personal preference of the QB...If a QB really trust a guy they may go to him...If they feel rushed they may go to the dump off...If they have a fast guy going deep they may say screw it and throw it up and see if they can go get it.

KW's production was down because he didn't get passes his way. You can believe whatever reason for that you want to, but the team decided to reduce his salary. That is not debatable.
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Old 07-03-2012   #35
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Default Re: PFF Three Years of Drop Rate for Wide Receivers - Sticky Fingers

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Probably why Andre got more catches and targets than KW too...


Maybe they didn't think he'd catch it either....
You think people roll coverage to AJ on every play? They should. But they don't.
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Old 07-03-2012   #36
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Default Re: PFF Three Years of Drop Rate for Wide Receivers - Sticky Fingers

Walter was open as all get out on the only play I care about.

TJ Yates steps back...FIRES to the right, Walter is open! TOUCHDOWN!

And then the Texans made the playoffs for the first time ever.
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Old 07-03-2012   #37
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Default Re: PFF Three Years of Drop Rate for Wide Receivers - Sticky Fingers

Owen Daniels has sticky fingers, too...

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog...te-tight-ends/
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Old 07-03-2012   #38
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Default Re: PFF Three Years of Drop Rate for Wide Receivers - Sticky Fingers

Let's use basically the least athletic receiving option we had - now look at how wide open he is and tell me this is not primarily play design - Link

The only times he catches a ball close to a defender are timing routes. The others the coverage has been manipulated.
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Old 07-06-2012   #39
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Default Re: PFF Three Years of Drop Rate for Wide Receivers - Sticky Fingers

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I think some of it is a bi-product of design. I'm willing to say its unreasonable to expect 70 reception seasons because of how he's used ,but he should be in the 50-60 reception range. I just dont see enough production or homerun ability.

I think hes not targeted more often because he's not open. Feel free to post screen shots ala 76 because the TV view sucks.
Four straight seasons of 50-65 receptions from '08-'11. Seems he met your expectations and yet you still say he doesn't produce enough.
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Old 07-06-2012   #40
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Default Re: PFF Three Years of Drop Rate for Wide Receivers - Sticky Fingers

Ah but how many receptions last year after a pay raise? You wont find post from me complaining about his production in previous years.
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