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Old 06-30-2012   #61
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Default Re: Schaub leading players-only throwing sessions

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Originally Posted by ckhouston View Post
Watch the games.

If you cant see it, there is nothing I can do to educate you.
Or maybe you're hallucinating and/or over-estimating your abilities and knowledge?
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Old 06-30-2012   #62
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Default Re: Schaub leading players-only throwing sessions

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Originally Posted by BullBlitz View Post
Agree. In sports, not only is leadership visible, it is apparent. There is one natural leader on our team in my opinion, and that is Brian Cushing.
There are many different types of leaders. There are guys who yell and scream like Cushing that is the leadership you can see on the field. Then there are guys who are quiet maybe point out some mistakes but generally quiet just be there when they are needed and set an example of hard work intensity and competency. They are the people who keep the team running. Leadership is not all about yelling and screaming and cursing.
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Old 06-30-2012   #63
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You guys are cracking me up with this leadership argument that neither side can win.

It turned into the same things over and over...

I'm just glad Shaub is trying to get more reps to make this team better.... and if the team shows up that is leading....
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Old 06-30-2012   #64
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Default Re: Schaub leading players-only throwing sessions

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Originally Posted by The Medic01 View Post
There are many different types of leaders. There are guys who yell and scream like Cushing that is the leadership you can see on the field. Then there are guys who are quiet maybe point out some mistakes but generally quiet just be there when they are needed and set an example of hard work intensity and competency. They are the people who keep the team running. Leadership is not all about yelling and screaming and cursing.
Did you say that it was? Or did someone else? I didn't.
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Old 06-30-2012   #65
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Default Re: Schaub leading players-only throwing sessions

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Did you say that it was? Or did someone else? I didn't.
Really? You said:

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In sports, not only is leadership visible, it is apparent. There is one natural leader on our team in my opinion, and that is Brian Cushing.
What The Medic01, ICak, and myself are saying is that not all leadership is visible or apparent. You are saying that it is and then you're saying that you didn't say that. Like you, CKHouston is saying you can see leadership by watching someone from a distance.

If I'm not mistaken, CKHouston is also saying that Schaub is not a leader. Or at least he's said as much in the past.
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Old 06-30-2012   #66
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Default Re: Schaub leading players-only throwing sessions

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CKHouston is saying you can see leadership by watching someone from a distance.
Is your contention that you have to be in the huddle to know if he is a leader?

My contention is that if that is the case, then he isnt.
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Old 06-30-2012   #67
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Default Re: Schaub leading players-only throwing sessions

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Is your contention that you have to be in the huddle to know if he is a leader?

My contention is that if that is the case, then he isnt.
Depends on the player. And you would be wrong.

Schaub shagged your dog and made him happier than you did. Just admit it.
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Old 06-30-2012   #68
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Default Re: Schaub leading players-only throwing sessions

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Originally Posted by ckhouston View Post
Is your contention that you have to be in the huddle to know if he is a leader?

My contention is that if that is the case, then he isnt.
My contention is that you have to be part of the team and you have to interact with him. If you aren't part of the team, you're not seeing or hearing the things he says and does. If you're watching from TV, then all you're seeing is what the camera shows you. If you're at the game, you're only seeing things from a long way away.

Leadership isn't just something that happens on Game Day. Leadership is something that happens in team meetings, in the film room, on the practice field in addition to what happens on the field on Game Day.
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Old 06-30-2012   #69
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Default Re: Schaub leading players-only throwing sessions

I remember we had this same discussion about our last QB.

For some reason, I believe if he is truly the leader he needs to be, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.
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Old 06-30-2012   #70
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Default Re: Schaub leading players-only throwing sessions

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
My contention is that you have to be part of the team and you have to interact with him. If you aren't part of the team, you're not seeing or hearing the things he says and does. If you're watching from TV, then all you're seeing is what the camera shows you. If you're at the game, you're only seeing things from a long way away.

Leadership isn't just something that happens on Game Day. Leadership is something that happens in team meetings, in the film room, on the practice field in addition to what happens on the field on Game Day.
Agreed. Even when it happens on game day it doesn't mean you will see it on the boob tube. Tons of stuff happens on the sidelines and in the huddle which is never seen or heard. This is just people who want a foot stomper. I guess Tom Landry was never a leader because he was seldom demonstrative.

There are all sorts of moments we never see or hear. You get glimpses at best - things like Schaub mic'd up walking into the huddle his first year here down 14-0 in the first quarter against Carolina saying "OK, we've got them right where we want them."

This is beyond one or two players playing nice with the media about their QB. Every single player who has spoken on the subject for six years now has said he is unquestionably a leader.

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I remember we had this same discussion about our last QB.

For some reason, I believe if he is truly the leader he needs to be, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.
It is foolishness to even bring up Carr in reference to Schaub. Make a cogent argument he isn't a leader.
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Old 06-30-2012   #71
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Default Re: Schaub leading players-only throwing sessions

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It is foolishness to even bring up Carr in reference to Schaub. Make a cogent argument he isn't a leader.
If you have to ask the question, chances are he isn't the leader we want him to be. Doesn't mean that he's not a leader, I know. But at the very least, it means he is not the leader we would like him to be.

No one questions Andre's leadership, why not? No one questioned Demeco's leadership. Why not?

Peyton Manning. Anyone question if he was the leader of his team? Sure, there were some who didn't appreciate his leadership style, but no one questioned if he was the leader of that team.

& no, it is not foolish to bring up our last QB because the same arguments were being made for him, by some of the same people arguing that Schaub is the leader of this team.
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Old 06-30-2012   #72
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Default Re: Schaub leading players-only throwing sessions

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If you have to ask the question, chances are he isn't the leader we want him to be. Doesn't mean that he's not a leader, I know. But at the very least, it means he is not the leader we would like him to be.

No one questions Andre's leadership, why not? No one questioned Demeco's leadership. Why not?

& no, it is not foolish to bring up our last QB because the same arguments were being made for him, by some of the same people arguing that Schaub is the leader of this team.
You don't have to ask the question. We have thousands of members, people listening to the radio, etc. The fact a couple knuckleheads, one who in particular doesn't think Schaub can't pee and hit the ground, raise the issue means nothing.

Nobody question's Andre's leadership? - seriously? Use the same criteria expressed in this thread - if you can't see it on TV it means jack. Now where has AJ done something more than play well? When has AJ been the demonstrative leader? When have you seen AJ in Schaub's face or another WR? The dude is a baller but he is one of the least demonstrative, least vocal people around. Do you see AJ on the sideline hand gesturing routes? No. Now Aaron Glenn was on the sideline after almost every series talking about coverage to Dunta. You'd never see it on TV but he was.

But I'll bail you out a little on AJ. He occasionally approaches Kubiak. It looks like a 6 year old approaching their dad. He's all, "um, coach, um I think if you call something I can double move the safety is um more to the middle and I can beat the CB to the sideline - um just a thought." Still doesn't make him a team leader other than the team knows he is damn good.

And yes it is foolish to bring up Carr. One guy was known as spending the least amount of time required at the facility - the other the most of any player. One guy never took his OL out to dinner - the other regularly does. Trying to remember the time Carr set up any voluntary practices with anyone - Schaub did last off-season and this one. I'm trying to remember all the glowing comments Carr received from his teammates - maybe you can remind me. Schaub is beloved by his teammates by every report. Care for more?
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Old 07-01-2012   #73
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Default Re: Schaub leading players-only throwing sessions

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Originally Posted by Premier View Post
good for schaub taking initiative, but leaders are born on the field. organizing team workouts makes him a team manager, not a leader..

It's called team building and it takes leaders to put together and execute things like this in a fashion where everybody advances themselves.
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Old 07-01-2012   #74
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Default Re: Schaub leading players-only throwing sessions

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And yes it is foolish to bring up Carr. One guy was known as spending the least amount of time required at the facility - the other the most of any player. One guy never took his OL out to dinner - the other regularly does. Trying to remember the time Carr set up any voluntary practices with anyone - Schaub did last off-season and this one. I'm trying to remember all the glowing comments Carr received from his teammates - maybe you can remind me. Schaub is beloved by his teammates by every report. Care for more?
I think Schaub gives up too early on plays, more often than not. 3rd down, instead of chucking it into the stands, or running out of bounds, when their isn't imminent, I'd like to see him put forth a little effort, try to buy a little more time, make something happen. I know he's athletically limited...... but I've seen Peyton Manning pick up first downs, juke defenders, & avoid contact with less athleticism.

Maybe that's not leadership. Maybe that's just knowing that the guy throwing the ball will do that little bit of extra to make sure we win, then I'm going to do a little more as well. I'm not going to let good enough be good enough.

IMO, that's the leadership we're missing. The field general.

Remember Andre..... 2009. Bowling in Arizona? Andre did that all year long in 2009. He's big, strong, he's a freak, but that was a different level for Andre. He hadn't played that way up til that point.

2009 was also the year I say was Schaub's best. He was that guy, he was the field general. He earned the right to demand the rest of the team give him 110% on the field.

Yes, I think if you're expecting Jacoby Jones to dive for a ball, focus & catch a ball knowing he's about to get smashed..... then the team leader...... has to convince me he would do the same thing. Not throw it away too early as often as Matt does.

Now if I need someone to organize a birthday party, someone dependable to give me a ride to work at 7am, someone to turn off the lights if they're last to leave the facility..... then yeah, Schaub's your man.

But if you want to win football games & Matt's your QB, we'll continue to remind each other that Brad Johnson & Trent Dilfer have rings.
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Old 07-01-2012   #75
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Default Re: Schaub leading players-only throwing sessions

I can remember a couple of games we lost with Rosenfels at QB where he tried to the do the exact things you're asking for, scrambling around extending plays. They ended with QB errors that cost us the game. Given the fact the turnover battle has such an important effect on the game, I'm OK with protecting the FB. Also, I would bet money that Kubiak would prefer a ball throw into the stands then a turnover due to the QB trying to extend the play.
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Old 07-01-2012   #76
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Default Re: Schaub leading players-only throwing sessions

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I can remember a couple of games we lost with Rosenfels at QB where he tried to the do the exact things you're asking for, scrambling around extending plays. They ended with QB errors that cost us the game. Given the fact the turnover battle has such an important effect on the game, I'm OK with protecting the FB. Also, I would bet money that Kubiak would prefer a ball throw into the stands then a turnover due to the QB trying to extend the play.
I'm not saying that Matt Schaub should try to hurdle Terrell Suggs. But you look at the best QBs in the game today & they all can and have bought time to extend plays with more consistency than Schaub. They refuse to accept failure. IMO, that's the only thing stopping Schaub from being Great.

3rd down means something to them. It's time to go sit on the bench if they don't convert. They don't want to be on the bench, they want the ball in their hands. Not that Matt wants to be on the bench.

Go back & watch last year's Oakland game. There's two Matt Schaub's in that game. Through the first half of the third qtr, there's the guy that I think gives up too easy. After mid-way through the third, there's the Matt I like to see. Making things happen, not accepting what the defense will "allow" him to do. Extending plays. He extended more plays in that short time than he did in the four games prior.

Two things you should note.
  1. I'm not hating on Matt. I know he can play like I want, I've seen him do it. In 2009, he did much more consistently than he has since. I'm telling you now how he did it in Oakland.
  2. I'm not complaining or blaming him for the way that game ended in Oakland. I'm not saying he should've did this, or he should have done that.. he tried to give us a chance to win, he did his best. That's all I ask. If he'd have chucked it into the stands, then I'd be upset.
  3. I felt the same way about Sage. I know other people think it was stupid, & I know he didn't "need" to do it... we were in the lead. But, I'd rather have a guy like that & try to slow him down, than having the guy you've got to tell to "turn it on"

Okay, so that's three things. I'm not saying that he needs to do it all the time. But if we don't have the lead... he needs to make every effort to convert, to get into scoring position. & if we have the lead, he should make every effort to extend the lead. If he's going to try to hurdle three defenders, put two hands on the ball.
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Old 07-01-2012   #77
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Default Re: Schaub leading players-only throwing sessions

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Now where has AJ done something more than play well? When has AJ been the demonstrative leader?
Doesnt need to do anything other than play well.

Andre Johnson is not the QB for the Houston Texans.

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One guy never took his OL out to dinner - the other regularly does.
Wow! Then by all means I stand corrected.


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Care for more?
No, but I am sure your Schaub fetish will lend itself to us getting more nevertheless.
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Old 07-01-2012   #78
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Default Re: Schaub leading players-only throwing sessions

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I'm not saying that Matt Schaub should try to hurdle Terrell Suggs. But you look at the best QBs in the game today & they all can and have bought time to extend plays with more consistency than Schaub. They refuse to accept failure. IMO, that's the only thing stopping Schaub from being Great.

3rd down means something to them. It's time to go sit on the bench if they don't convert. They don't want to be on the bench, they want the ball in their hands. Not that Matt wants to be on the bench.

Go back & watch last year's Oakland game. There's two Matt Schaub's in that game. Through the first half of the third qtr, there's the guy that I think gives up too easy. After mid-way through the third, there's the Matt I like to see. Making things happen, not accepting what the defense will "allow" him to do. Extending plays. He extended more plays in that short time than he did in the four games prior.

Two things you should note.
  1. I'm not hating on Matt. I know he can play like I want, I've seen him do it. In 2009, he did much more consistently than he has since. I'm telling you now how he did it in Oakland.
  2. I'm not complaining or blaming him for the way that game ended in Oakland. I'm not saying he should've did this, or he should have done that.. he tried to give us a chance to win, he did his best. That's all I ask. If he'd have chucked it into the stands, then I'd be upset.
  3. I felt the same way about Sage. I know other people think it was stupid, & I know he didn't "need" to do it... we were in the lead. But, I'd rather have a guy like that & try to slow him down, than having the guy you've got to tell to "turn it on"

Okay, so that's three things. I'm not saying that he needs to do it all the time. But if we don't have the lead... he needs to make every effort to convert, to get into scoring position. & if we have the lead, he should make every effort to extend the lead. If he's going to try to hurdle three defenders, put two hands on the ball.
I don't see it, TK.
I went back and rewatched the Raiders game (specifically, the third and fourth down plays.)
I think you're being too hard on Schaub.
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Old 07-01-2012   #79
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Default Re: Schaub leading players-only throwing sessions

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
I think Schaub gives up too early on plays, more often than not. 3rd down, instead of chucking it into the stands, or running out of bounds, when their isn't imminent, I'd like to see him put forth a little effort, try to buy a little more time, make something happen. I know he's athletically limited...... but I've seen Peyton Manning pick up first downs, juke defenders, & avoid contact with less athleticism.
You are totally blind to football if you are making this assertion or comparison. #1 Schaub has if anything been considered to hang onto the ball too long and take unnecessary hits. #2 Manning is the quintessential hit the ground like a sack of potatoes QB - half his sacks come from people touching him as he is curled up in the fetal position on the ground. Mario sacked him more than anyone else and it usually was with one finger.
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Old 07-01-2012   #80
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Default Re: Schaub leading players-only throwing sessions

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
3rd down means something to them. It's time to go sit on the bench if they don't convert.
Funny how the Texans have been in the top 10 in 3rd down conversions in 4 of the 5 seasons Schaub has been here.
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