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Old 07-18-2012   #81
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Default Re: Some Offseason Love for TJ Yates

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On the bolded, I do not see anyone advocating a position that TJ is like Luck, Newton, RG3.

But, I got news for ya', pal, unless you want to endure another 2-14 season for a top pick in the draft, we ain't getting a Luck, Newton, RG3, etc., any time soon.

So we either trade for value (i.e. Schaub) or we try to find a gem the rock pile (hopefully TJ).

I think it's delusional and a little shallow to even bring those names into the conversation, simply because it's unrealistic scenarios. Almost like bringing Manning and Brady into a conversation about Schaub. It is pointless.
Those names were only used as an example to clarify my response to TK, not to suggest we should have gone after a top ten pick. Remember, TK's question was; is Yates a starting-caliber, franchise QB? ...like Luck or RG3 (or Dalton) were drafted to be. I actually agree with what your saying. Yates shouldn't be in the conversation with those guys.

Remember when we picked up Yates, we were sitting in pretty fair shape at QB. Schaub had just completed two full seasons without missing a single game and we had a freshly rehabilitated & refocused Hot Tub boy as our experienced backup. Yates, at that time, was just what you referred to, a potential "gem in the rock pile"; someone who Kubiak could possibly take a year or two to develop to step in for Hot Tub Boy as the #2 or, if we're really lucky, to be the number one if Schaub went nuts and wanted top-five QB money next year.


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I always thought you liked and respected Kubiak.

This statement tells me that you are questioning his analytical skills and coaching choices at a position that is his known strength (QBs).

Like Rey mentioned, I think Kubiak would have found someone for the #2 spot if he did not believe in TJ. Schaub's health is unknown quantity for a 16+ game schedule right now. That's not a knock on the guy, but just the reality of a QB coming off a severe injury that has been known to end careers.

You cannot have it both ways. You either believe Kubiak's judgment on QBs, or you don't.
I do believe in Kubiak's ability to assess and coach up QBs.

And Kubiak DID bring in someone to press Yates for the #2 spot - see John Beck; I think he's here to be more than just a "camp arm". If Yates doesn't show sufficient progress and Beck shows he has something left, look for Beck to move up to #2. Before you descend upon me, I fully understand those are two big "IFs".

My reference to Schaub was totally a hypothetical scenario. I'm saying that IF Schaub's injury had been known - by the end of last season - that he would never take another NFL snap, I'm saying Smithiak would have spent the off-season looking for someone with more experience to come in and compete with Yates for the #1 QB spot. Maybe he would have invited Delhomme back. Maybe <shudder> he invites Rex Grossman back. Maybe <shudder again> we don't cut Leinhart. Maybe we use our early picks for potential stud QB (although I doubt it - I can't see us paying the premium it would have taken to move up to get someone like Tannehill).

And my faith in Kubiak as a QB evaluator is exactly why I say that I just could not see Kubiak rolling into this season, with Schaub having retired, with Yates as his #1 and Keenum and Beck as the #2 & 3 (you pick the order) without him bringing an experienced QB to challenge Yates for that #1 job.
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Old 07-18-2012   #82
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Default Re: Some Offseason Love for TJ Yates

Man. Talk about Hi-Jacking a thread. Am I right?
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Old 07-18-2012   #83
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Default Re: Some Offseason Love for TJ Yates

Okay, I haven't read all of the points, I skimmed through most of them. I just want to make this point though. We all know Schaub is capable, he just needed better talent around him and supporting him. 2009 for example, he was top 3 in passing right? That was with an injured OD and no running game to speak of. Which means no passing threat to the RB, since we didn't have a consistent back. Yet he was still able to to be top 3 in the league. Even last year, he had better talent, but everyone was injured. Foster missing the first 3, AJ missing a good amount of time, and just a few others from time to time all the way up until Tampa. Schaub is not the perfect QB, but he at least utilizes his options better than what TJ did. Yates has his moments, like the drive in cincy, and the first playoff game, but other games he didn't do as much as I believe Schaub could have done. That can be rookie mistakes. Fine. But right now, Schaub is the guy, and TJ is lightyears away from that period. Like I said earlier, Schaub is capable of leading us to the big game. He is a better than average game manager. I'll agree with TKS when he says Schaub won't win one for us. If anyone is going to contribute the most to winning the Super Bowl, it is going to be Our DEFENSE, and ARIAN FOSTER. But as long as we have Schaub in, things will go a lot smoother than it would be with Yates at the helm.

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Old 07-18-2012   #84
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Default Re: Some Offseason Love for TJ Yates

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I haven't seen enough of Matt in must-win situations to form much of an opinion regarding his leadership.

But I hope we get to see a lot more of TJ this season.
So you hope to see an offense that scores around 18 points per game vs an offense that can put up 27+ per? Makes sense.
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Old 07-18-2012   #85
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Default Re: Some Offseason Love for TJ Yates

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Those names were only used as an example to clarify my response to TK, not to suggest we should have gone after a top ten pick. Remember, TK's question was; is Yates a starting-caliber, franchise QB? ...like Luck or RG3 (or Dalton) were drafted to be. I actually agree with what your saying. Yates shouldn't be in the conversation with those guys.

Remember when we picked up Yates, we were sitting in pretty fair shape at QB. Schaub had just completed two full seasons without missing a single game and we had a freshly rehabilitated & refocused Hot Tub boy as our experienced backup. Yates, at that time, was just what you referred to, a potential "gem in the rock pile"; someone who Kubiak could possibly take a year or two to develop to step in for Hot Tub Boy as the #2 or, if we're really lucky, to be the number one if Schaub went nuts and wanted top-five QB money next year.




I do believe in Kubiak's ability to assess and coach up QBs.

And Kubiak DID bring in someone to press Yates for the #2 spot - see John Beck; I think he's here to be more than just a "camp arm". If Yates doesn't show sufficient progress and Beck shows he has something left, look for Beck to move up to #2. Before you descend upon me, I fully understand those are two big "IFs".

My reference to Schaub was totally a hypothetical scenario. I'm saying that IF Schaub's injury had been known - by the end of last season - that he would never take another NFL snap, I'm saying Smithiak would have spent the off-season looking for someone with more experience to come in and compete with Yates for the #1 QB spot. Maybe he would have invited Delhomme back. Maybe <shudder> he invites Rex Grossman back. Maybe <shudder again> we don't cut Leinhart. Maybe we use our early picks for potential stud QB (although I doubt it - I can't see us paying the premium it would have taken to move up to get someone like Tannehill).

And my faith in Kubiak as a QB evaluator is exactly why I say that I just could not see Kubiak rolling into this season, with Schaub having retired, with Yates as his #1 and Keenum and Beck as the #2 & 3 (you pick the order) without him bringing an experienced QB to challenge Yates for that #1 job.
Good post, man. Just to clarify, I have never advocated TJ over Schaub. I think Matt is a good (potentially great) QB that can lead us to the promised land if he can stay in the games.

Now about Yates; I think it is safe to assume that all fans value a championship title over a HoF QB.

That given being said, let's look at a 'scale' of Super Bowl winning QBs:

Trent Dilfer---------------------------------------------Joe Montana

On one end we have the G.O.A.T., and on the other, a QB who was a 'game manager' that avoided mistakes to let his team win games.

So the question about Yates is about his potential to fall somewhere on that scale. Can he be as good as a Trent Dilfer-type QB, who manages games and let's the team around him win games?

Because in the end, that's what this is all about. We need a backup QB that can step up, fill some big shoes, and win some games on the road to a championship.

Like you, I'm not convinced that TJ is that guy. But, I'm also not convinced that he can't be that guy, either. I try to think posiitve that he has the potential in him to be better than Dilfer, but that's just a chosen perspective on my part. I hope we do not find out for awhile.

p.s if TJ can't beat out John Beck, then cut his ass and develop Keenum for the no. 2 spot. I shudder to thing of Beck behind the center, and if it comes to that, I think I will just shut down for the season. We aren't doing anything positive with that lug nut. And for the record, yes, I am questioning Kubiak's decision to bring him into camp, but I think the Shanahan connection has something to do with it.
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Old 07-18-2012   #86
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So you hope to see an offense that scores around 18 points per game vs an offense that can put up 27+ per? Makes sense.
I'll preface this with again saying schaub should start.

But are you suggesting that Yates won't get any better and that schaub might not struggle some coming off that injury?

18 pts/gm for a late round rookie suddenly thrown into the fire. I'd expect Yates to have grown at least a little bit and be able to lead the team to more scoring drives than he did last year.

Seems to me like people who like Yates are imagining the growth he may have and it seems like folks who detract from him don't really ponder about him growing off of what was actually a pretty good rookie campaign; all things considered.

None of us know how good or bad Yates will be in the future, but i think that is the crux of the debate.

I can't really knock either side, but I do think Yates future is bright based on some things I saw from him last year. He has a lot of work to do, but I thought the kid was really good.
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Old 07-18-2012   #87
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Default Re: Some Offseason Love for TJ Yates

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I'll preface this with again saying schaub should start.

But are you suggesting that Yates won't get any better and that schaub might not struggle some coming off that injury?

18 pts/gm for a late round rookie suddenly thrown into the fire. I'd expect Yates to have grown at least a little bit and be able to lead the team to more scoring drives than he did last year.

Seems to me like people who like Yates are imagining the growth he may have and it seems like folks who detract from him don't really ponder about him growing off of what was actually a pretty good rookie campaign; all things considered.

None of us know how good or bad Yates will be in the future, but i think that is the crux of the debate.

I can't really knock either side, but I do think Yates future is bright based on some things I saw from him last year. He has a lot of work to do, but I thought the kid was really good.
Sure, he could grow into being a good QB. The poster I quoted said he'd like to see TJ play a lot THIS year.
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Old 07-18-2012   #88
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Default Re: Some Offseason Love for TJ Yates

Gary Kubiak was very careful with Yates in sense of keeping things simple & not throwing the whole play book @ him. Obviously Schaub has access to the entire playbook something to consider in this whole points per game argument. Not to mention level of defense rises with playoff implications. Also remember a Schaub coming out of Virgina & I doubt he would have done any better as a rookie than Yates did. FYI
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Old 07-18-2012   #89
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Default Re: Some Offseason Love for TJ Yates

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Gary Kubiak was very careful with Yates in sense of keeping things simple & not throwing the whole play book @ him. Obviously Schaub has access to the entire playbook something to consider in this whole points per game argument. Not to mention level of defense rises with playoff implications. Also remember a Schaub coming out of Virgina & I doubt he would have done any better as a rookie than Yates did. FYI
I'll give you the abbreviated playbook argument but not the increase in level (I figured you meant "quality") of defense Yates faced. Not when we're talking the inability to score more than 16 pts against Carolina and Indy.
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Old 07-18-2012   #90
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Default Re: Some Offseason Love for TJ Yates

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Also remember a Schaub coming out of Virgina & I doubt he would have done any better as a rookie than Yates did. FYI
Why? But for an injury his senior year Schaub was looking at not just going 2 rounds earlier than TJ but possibly 4 certainly 3. Their college records aren't even close.
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Old 07-18-2012   #91
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Default Re: Some Offseason Love for TJ Yates

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Because in the end, that's what this is all about. We need a backup QB that can step up, fill some big shoes, and win some games on the road to a championship.

Like you, I'm not convinced that TJ is that guy.
Um. What about the Falcons game and the first Bengals game? He needed to step up and win some games and he did. He even won a road game against a playoff team. And then he won a playoff game. All as a rookie.

If Schaub had been able to get healthy in time for the Ravens game, we would have been golden.

Even if TJ doesn't improve, he's already done what you're saying you would want him to do. You're not sure he can do it even though he's already done it. And he should be better in the future than he was last year.
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Old 07-18-2012   #92
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Default Re: Some Offseason Love for TJ Yates

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Um. What about the Falcons game and the first Bengals game? He needed to step up and win some games and he did. He even won a road game against a playoff team. And then he won a playoff game. All as a rookie.

If Schaub had been able to get healthy in time for the Ravens game, we would have been golden.

Even if TJ doesn't improve, he's already done what you're saying you would want him to do. You're not sure he can do it even though he's already done it. And he should be better in the future than he was last year.
I agree with you. I've actually been making the same argument further upstream. My recent posts with ObsiWan has been more of trying to find middle ground between the two sides.

I should have clarified that I'd like to see him improve his game with consistent solid play. He made rookie mistakes last season, and I do not hold that against him like others seem to do.

His successes last season is the reason I've got faith in him. He showed some signs of clutch performance that indicated to me that he could eventually be Schaub's successor.
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Old 07-18-2012   #93
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Default Re: Some Offseason Love for TJ Yates

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if this is your bottom line question my answer is no. The Yates I saw last season is not the long term answer for this franchise; not like Luck, Newton, RG3, et. al. are the perceived long term answers for their respective teams.

I could be all wrong but something tells me that if Schaub's injury had been career-ending, Smithiak would be looking for someone else to start.
Agreed, Obi....

I think Keenum is an interesting pick. For me, the question is why (but I like it, I like the guy's game). I think there are a number of possibilities that are all arguable but no clear answer, so I'm not making an argument for any of them. I'm not one to make these endless arguments ad nauseum (not saying you are...more of a reaction to the board at large). The advantage of Keenum and Yates for me is that they both have a favorable build for durability to me than Shaub and his bird legs. I used to have a friend at the gym who was like Shaub, kind of. This particular guy had amazing knowledge and success in sculpting his body....worked as a personal trainer. But he had legs that didn't develop musculature, bird legs.......and it always limited the impression of what he was capable of overall. I know Shaub is a worker and he's dedicated and driven....it's just that he's built with certain limitations.

That said, the pick says we need depth, we need training camp bodies, we need more options for development, or any number of relative subtleties.....the bottom line for me is that I think that Shaub is as good as he's ever going to get......and that concerns me. People like to point out ppg last year with Shaub in the game. I don't. I get nervous when he holds the ball....I get nervous when the stats sheet shows that he hit 4 receivers in the game and Brees hit 9.....I get nervous when he spends half of every year limping around. All of that said.....TJ is not an upgrade today. Looking back at last year and rating Shaub's production when he was healthy....I didn't see it as one of his better years. The expectation is set....whether it's 8 wins or any number higher that gets us into the playoffs this year.....every player has to elevate their game at some point this year if this team is to reach all of it's goals and I'm hoping they all elevate their play together throughout the playoffs.
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Old 07-18-2012   #94
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Default Re: Some Offseason Love for TJ Yates

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Why? But for an injury his senior year Schaub was looking at not just going 2 rounds earlier than TJ but possibly 4 certainly 3. Their college records aren't even close.
I don't understand this at all. As we've seen, Schaub is just as good as he was before the college injury. Why should his draft-stock take a hit? Then imagine some other team would have picked him..... say Dallas, or Washington, even Miami, where he would have had a legit shot at a starting position. Keep in mind, I know that's the way it goes, I'm just saying I don't understand why it does.

Of course, that also raises the question, how good would he have been, if he started right away.

& to me, the biggest danger to starting right away, is a confidence question. You're going to take some shots, you're going to get punched in the mouth. Some guys can take that & keep fighting. Other guys can't.

Schaub was lucky enough to learn the game, get acclimated to the speed & talent, then he came here, where everyone (at least I was) was happy to win 8 games.

Lienart is another example. He was a shoe in as a top 5 pick. But he stayed for his senior season, played well, but still took a draft hit. Not as bad as Schuabs, but a hit non-the-less.
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Old 07-18-2012   #95
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Default Re: Some Offseason Love for TJ Yates

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I don't understand this at all.
Don't get what? Schaub did better in college. He has done better in the NFL. A statement TJ would have done just as well is absurd.
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Old 07-18-2012   #96
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Default Re: Some Offseason Love for TJ Yates

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Don't get what? Schaub did better in college. He has done better in the NFL. A statement TJ would have done just as well is absurd.
I thought I was pretty clear.

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As we've seen, Schaub is just as good as he was before the college injury. Why should his draft-stock take a hit?
Just doesn't make sense to me is all.

Schaub's been hurt most of his NFL career, but if we were drafting today, you wouldn't chose Losman over Schaub would you?
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Old 07-18-2012   #97
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Default Re: Some Offseason Love for TJ Yates

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I don't understand this at all. As we've seen, Schaub is just as good as he was before the college injury. Why should his draft-stock take a hit? Then imagine some other team would have picked him.....
TK. Why did Jared Crick drop from a probable first to hang around for us to pick him up in the fourth?
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Old 07-18-2012   #98
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Default Re: Some Offseason Love for TJ Yates

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I thought I was pretty clear.

Just doesn't make sense to me is all.

As we've seen, Schaub is just as good as he was before the college injury. Why should his draft-stock take a hit?
Seriously? After his junior year Schaub was in the discussion for the Heisman. Then he got injured, missed some games and fell to the 3rd round. Do you really not understand that?
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Old 07-18-2012   #99
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Default Re: Some Offseason Love for TJ Yates

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Agreed, Obi....

I think Keenum is an interesting pick.
Just a quibble but technically, Keenum wasn't a "pick."
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Old 07-18-2012   #100
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Default Re: Some Offseason Love for TJ Yates

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Just doesn't make sense to me is all.

Schaub's been hurt most of his NFL career, but if we were drafting today, you wouldn't chose Losman over Schaub would you?
I think you're saying "if we were to REDRAFT..." which is not what anyone else is talking about. Schaub's draft stock isn't a present tense thing, it's a past tense thing. His stock was high, then he got injured, and his stock fell. No one really knew if he was going to recover from that or if he was going to be injury prone or what.

You're looking at it in hindsight and the Cak is talking about what actually happened.
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