Texan organization solidifying

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by Goldensilence

Looks to me like a lot of "if only's" and nothing really substantial in your yearly account list. I think every team can make that list that doesn't make the playoffs. Problem is i nthe NFL well if this had gone right we COULD'VE made the playoff just doesn't count. It does for revisionists.

Who's revising? I'm not saying those were good teams or that they did anything other than what they did. All I'm saying, is that those teams were the beginnings of the team we saw in 2011. It was more of an evolutionary thing, not something totally new that started with Wade.

Originally Posted by Goldensilence

The defense under Smith's tenure looked lost under his "read and react defense" and all too often looked just plain lost and like he had no clue on how to manage personnel.

He managed them just fine in 2009. I'm not saying he belongs in the H.O.F. of defensive coordinators, but if nothing else, 2009 proves he was at least competent. & we played much better offenses in 2009 than we played in 2011, including the SuperBowl appearing Kurt Warner led Cardinals & a Peyton Manning led Colts (x2).

How do you go from competent one year to no clue the next? That just doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by Goldensilence

The defense under Bush, if I had to sum it up in one word, I'd use the one Frank himself used all too often and all too often it failed to be that way: "aggressive". All too often as well, by the time they "got" whatever Frank was doing it was well into the season and after it was too late to make a real playoff run.

They flipped a switch in 2009 after 4 games. It wasn't a case of too little too late. 2010, Frank never adjusted to playing "aggresive" for much of any game. Didn't make sense to me. We got back into games because the defense would play aggressive for small spurts.

Originally Posted by Goldensilence

I wouldn't even say the looked formidable as what Wade put on the field, they just looked better.

Are you saying this for both the 2009 & the 2010 team, or just the 2010 team? I completely agree if the latter.

Originally Posted by Goldensilence

The biggest difference between a Wade Smith defense and the other two, is they always seemed to be guessing or hoping that some aspect of their "scheme" would work or hoped and guessed X player would fit. With Wade he knows what to look for and what player will fit in his scheme.

Again, in 2009, Frank Bush knew... in 2010, he didn't? I don't get it.

Richard Smith, I agree. He was clueless.

Originally Posted by Goldensilence

My point is if we're going with the brick building theory of things, if NFL teams weren't bracing for a lockout. Kubiak's gone, though I think it's likely Smith would've stayed on.

irrelevant. Whether Kubiak left or not, the team that played the 2010 season would have been mostly his guys. It's rare to turn a roster over completely in one offseason. We still would have been playing with Kubiak's team & whatever coach would have been here would have been better off than what Kubiak was when he got here. For one, he'd have at least a handful of quality starters on both sides of the ball. Kubiak got here, & there was a WR, LG/LT, & a CB. I might be missing one or two starters from the 2006 team... but only one or two.

He also would have had a competent GM (though I think he's asleep at the wheel a little too often, he's better than the guy Kubiak started with).

He'd also have an owner that actually knows something about the business. McNair was clueless about how things work in the NFL & you can see a big change in how he goes about his business now than 2006. Always a business man, I know that. But he didn't know jack about the NFL.

Originally Posted by Goldensilence

Weaver got grossly overpaid and grossly underperformed. Antonio Smith got a big contract, we're lucky for the most part he's played up to it. Sorry, I don't count franchising as making a FA move. Revising again. Failing to sign a mediocre corner in a bad FA market doesn't count either. But, hey at least that was another moral victory in FA?

Antonio is overpaid. Not grossly, not as bad as Weaver was. But he's overpaid.

& we're going to have to define "revising" because I don't know what you mean. I listed the guys we drafted. Not could have drafted, not should have drafted.... but the guys we drafted & remarked on the similarities of them & what I felt was a common theme.

Two points about Dunta, one I'm talking about the money we gave him to play one year. If you're going to call McNair cheap, you have to look at the money he's spending. Aj, Schaub, Dunta.... & all the bad FA moves we made in the past should (but I don't know why it doesn't) squash any "cheap" argument.

The other, as someone else mentioned, Dunta was the best Corner available in 2009.... we franchised him. He was second to Bodden in 2010, we struck out on Bodden & didn't see the value of signing Dunta for another $9M...... what did you expect them to do? **** a Starting Cornerback? If only it were that easy.

Originally Posted by Goldensilence

I guess I am in the opinion that the FO thought about Nnmadi then decided to more aggressively pursue J-Jo. Either way do you think IF Frank Bush was still the coordinator Him or Manning would've come here?

Yes.

If I remember right, we were the highest bidder for Manning & Jjo... I don't know if anyone else was interested in Jjo, his own team didn't make him an offer. You seem to be thinking of the 2011 Jjo, not the solid-but-nothing-special 2010 & before Jjo.

Same for Manning, he was probably thought of as damaged goods. I don't know how many people were trying to sign him, but I know Chicago wasn't.

These guys were 2nd tier FAs who we overpaid for, but they played up to their contracts. These are the same type of guys we've gotten in FA before, Wade Smith, Sean Cody, Antonio Smith. Young with potential.

Originally Posted by Goldensilence

I've never stated that Rick and Gary have been FUBAR'd. What I am saying is suddenly, just suddenly it all falls into place when Wade arrives and the defense moves from 30th overall to 2nd... that you can just call it coincidence and the stars aligning?

& I just don't think it's "all of a sudden" they've been a missing piece away for a long time. I think the biggest missing piece, is that the average of the group, the core are the veterans that we never had. The keep it together, keep chopping guys that hold everything together & lead on the field. Cushing, Antonio, Quin, Myers, Brown, Winston, Aj....

Yes, I think Jjo & Manning brought some needed veteran leadership. I also think Arian Foster, though he's young brought some of that fiery on the field stuff that Demeco brought with him back in 2006... but back then, he was alone in that regard. We have more on the field leaders than we ever had.

I had been thinking along those lines for a while. In the past, we were making up ways to lose games. That happens when you've got a team of guys who just aren't any good (which I never thought) or when you've got a bunch of young guys out there with no or little leadership.

Originally Posted by Goldensilence

I'm saying I don't believe Wade's place in this turnaround and playoff appearance is overstated. I think it should be pretty clear without him, this defense isn't likely to make that kind of lightspeed jump it did. Make no mistake about it, without the defense playing lights out when it did, this team doesn't make the playoffs and Gary's gone.

All other things being equal, yes, you're right, I agree with you & we should probably stop this discussion right here (but you know I won't).

If Frank Bush was here & had the same draft & the same attrition throughout the year, the Titans would have one another game (against us) & won the division with a 10-6 record. We most likely wouldn't have won 6 games.

So yeah, you're right.

At the same time, all I'm saying is had we gone with someone other than Kubiak in 2006, I'm not so sure we would be any better off. It took him a long time, I'm not disagreeing there. But I'd hate to have gone on the coaching carousel the Rams, Bills, Lions, & 49ers have gone on.

Yeah, the 9ers seem to have got it together now, but it took the organization 10 years (I think)... & 2012 will tell us if they've actually got something other than fools gold (same as us).

Originally Posted by Goldensilence

Occam's Razor: maybe Frank Bush just wasn't a good defensive coordinator?

Explain 2009.

Originally Posted by Goldensilence

I guess we'll never totally know whose call it was to go young at CB. I would guess he at least had some say in that personnel decision. Is that on Gary or Frank....either way we both know Frank got axed for it.

I think the decision pretty much made itself. We weren't going to resign Dunta, I'm good with that decision & will support it 6 ways to Sunday. We didn't resign Reeves.... he & Bennett & Moulden couldn't get on the field anyway... just because they're older doesn't make them better. It's arguable, but I'm not going to give them a hard time about it.

The bigger mistake I think was not being aggresive, trying to compensate for that youth. But being aggressive is what masked Pollard's inability to cover in 2009. It would have helped us (I think) more than hurt us.

Originally Posted by Goldensilence

Nothing convinced me he was competent enough to do the job or we would've had to deal with yet another guy "learning on the job". Sure his defenses looked competent...late in the season when realistic playoff chances were all but dead.

Now I think you are the one revising history. In 2009, it wasn't that the defense turned it on too late. They played lights out from week 5 through week 17. We didn't have a running game, couldn't pick up 3rd & short, couldn't punch it into the endzone.... Our failure in 2009 had less to do with the defense than it did with our inability to pick up a yard.

[Goldensilence]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

Who's revising? I'm not saying those were good teams or that they did anything other than what they did. All I'm saying, is that those teams were the beginnings of the team we saw in 2011. It was more of an evolutionary thing, not something totally new that started with Wade.

I never said it was something newly created. Umm of course there was a team already in place, but it's looking at things it's like a light switch got turned on, instead of fumbling around with a flashlight that goes on and off. To me the team was that much night and day.[/b]

He managed them just fine in 2009. I'm not saying he belongs in the H.O.F. of defensive coordinators, but if nothing else, 2009 proves he was at least competent. & we played much better offenses in 2009 than we played in 2011, including the SuperBowl appearing Kurt Warner led Cardinals & a Peyton Manning led Colts (x2).

How do you go from competent one year to no clue the next? That just doesn't make sense.

If I had to point to one thing. The choice to go so young at DB.

They flipped a switch in 2009 after 4 games. It wasn't a case of too little too late. 2010, Frank never adjusted to playing "aggresive" for much of any game. Didn't make sense to me. We got back into games because the defense would play aggressive for small spurts.

God, I'm looking over the 2009 season offensively and remembering Chris Brown all over. Statistically, you're right the defense was middle of the road for the most past which is what we needed them to be.

Are you saying this for both the 2009 & the 2010 team, or just the 2010 team? I completely agree if the latter.


Again, in 2009, Frank Bush knew... in 2010, he didn't? I don't get it.

Richard Smith, I agree. He was clueless.

irrelevant. Whether Kubiak left or not, the team that played the 2010 season would have been mostly his guys. It's rare to turn a roster over completely in one offseason. We still would have been playing with Kubiak's team & whatever coach would have been here would have been better off than what Kubiak was when he got here. For one, he'd have at least a handful of quality starters on both sides of the ball. Kubiak got here, & there was a WR, LG/LT, & a CB. I might be missing one or two starters from the 2006 team... but only one or two.

He also would have had a competent GM (though I think he's asleep at the wheel a little too often, he's better than the guy Kubiak started with).

If I color coated dog bowls to represent possible draft picks and I chose them by which bowl he ate, together we'd draft better than Casserly. It's relevant because had it been a regular season without the looming lockout, Kubiak is gone and we don't see where the Kubiak experiment goes when he FINALLY gets it all right.

He'd also have an owner that actually knows something about the business. McNair was clueless about how things work in the NFL & you can see a big change in how he goes about his business now than 2006. Always a business man, I know that. But he didn't know jack about the NFL.

Antonio is overpaid. Not grossly, not as bad as Weaver was. But he's overpaid.

Point is we had to pay him that much just to get him to come here. I'm not even sure he was even considered a second tier FA.

& we're going to have to define "revising" because I don't know what you mean. I listed the guys we drafted. Not could have drafted, not should have drafted.... but the guys we drafted & remarked on the similarities of them & what I felt was a common theme.

Two points about Dunta, one I'm talking about the money we gave him to play one year. If you're going to call McNair cheap, you have to look at the money he's spending. Aj, Schaub, Dunta.... & all the bad FA moves we made in the past should (but I don't know why it doesn't) squash any "cheap" argument.

I'm not talking about being cheap. I'm talking about franchising a player does not amount to the same thing as signing a FA. It's like getting your car fixed and claiming you bought a new one.

The other, as someone else mentioned, Dunta was the best Corner available in 2009.... we franchised him. He was second to Bodden in 2010, we struck out on Bodden & didn't see the value of signing Dunta for another $9M...... what did you expect them to do? **** a Starting Cornerback? If only it were that easy.

I would have at least thought they would have gone out of house for a veteran instead of running out so many young guys or looked to trade for some experience. We'll never know though if that was a viable option.

Yes.

If I remember right, we were the highest bidder for Manning & Jjo... I don't know if anyone else was interested in Jjo, his own team didn't make him an offer. You seem to be thinking of the 2011 Jjo, not the solid-but-nothing-special 2010 & before Jjo.

I think J-Jo was largely regarded as the second best corner after Aso and I am under the impression That Cinci wanted to make him and offer, but was stuck deciding between Leon Hall or Him. The Texans didn't really seem to be on the radar until it was announced. I could be wrong on the latter part though.

I am just not so sure, like you, that he just jumps on board without Wade here. Maybe it's the fan part of me that's cynical about FA's we went after in the past using us to jack up other team's prices.

Same for Manning, he was probably thought of as damaged goods. I don't know how many people were trying to sign him, but I know Chicago wasn't.

You could be right about Manning more so than J-Jo.

These guys were 2nd tier FAs who we overpaid for, but they played up to their contracts. These are the same type of guys we've gotten in FA before, Wade Smith, Sean Cody, Antonio Smith. Young with potential.


& I just don't think it's "all of a sudden" they've been a missing piece away for a long time. I think the biggest missing piece, is that the average of the group, the core are the veterans that we never had. The keep it together, keep chopping guys that hold everything together & lead on the field. Cushing, Antonio, Quin, Myers, Brown, Winston, Aj....

Yes, I think Jjo & Manning brought some needed veteran leadership. I also think Arian Foster, though he's young brought some of that fiery on the field stuff that Demeco brought with him back in 2006... but back then, he was alone in that regard. We have more on the field leaders than we ever had.

I had been thinking along those lines for a while. In the past, we were making up ways to lose games. That happens when you've got a team of guys who just aren't any good (which I never thought) or when you've got a bunch of young guys out there with no or little leadership.

All other things being equal, yes, you're right, I agree with you & we should probably stop this discussion right here (but you know I won't).

If Frank Bush was here & had the same draft & the same attrition throughout the year, the Titans would have one another game (against us) & won the division with a 10-6 record. We most likely wouldn't have won 6 games.

So yeah, you're right.

At the same time, all I'm saying is had we gone with someone other than Kubiak in 2006, I'm not so sure we would be any better off. It took him a long time, I'm not disagreeing there. But I'd hate to have gone on the coaching carousel the Rams, Bills, Lions, & 49ers have gone on.

Yeah, the 9ers seem to have got it together now, but it took the organization 10 years (I think)... & 2012 will tell us if they've actually got something other than fools gold (same as us).

Yeah, but again I'm looking at the 49ers after one year under Jim Harbaugh and they made it to the NFC championship game.... in one year. All things equal...would it be safe to assume that Harbaugh made the biggest impact?


Explain 2009.

Better personnel at DB and certainly helps to have Cushing out there playing like a mad-man. I don't think anyone really saw the ROY performance when we drafted him. I did expect him to be an impact player, but not ROY. I think most of us had concerns of the steroids use rumors going on around him and if he could keep on the field.

I think the decision pretty much made itself. We weren't going to resign Dunta, I'm good with that decision & will support it 6 ways to Sunday. We didn't resign Reeves.... he & Bennett & Moulden couldn't get on the field anyway... just because they're older doesn't make them better. It's arguable, but I'm not going to give them a hard time about it.

The bigger mistake I think was not being aggresive, trying to compensate for that youth. But being aggressive is what masked Pollard's inability to cover in 2009. It would have helped us (I think) more than hurt us.

I agree on having to let Dunta walk. I think not re-upping Reeves was a mistake. Not so much that he was so good, much as he was better than any of the other DBs we had on the roster at the time.

Pollard was good in '09 because he was able to play towards what he is...which is an in the box safety.




Now I think you are the one revising history. In 2009, it wasn't that the defense turned it on too late. They played lights out from week 5 through week 17. We didn't have a running game, couldn't pick up 3rd & short, couldn't punch it into the endzone.... Our failure in 2009 had less to do with the defense than it did with our inability to pick up a yard.

Looking back over the games, you're right. 2009 was the year this team got inventive on how to lose close games. I guess 2009 and 2010 flip flopped so much that I was mixing up the two struggles on the O and on the D.

Chris Brown GODDAMN you!

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by Goldensilence

I think J-Jo was largely regarded as the second best corner after Aso and I am under the impression That Cinci wanted to make him and offer, but was stuck deciding between Leon Hall or Him. The Texans didn't really seem to be on the radar until it was announced. I could be wrong on the latter part though.

I am just not so sure, like you, that he just jumps on board without Wade here. Maybe it's the fan part of me that's cynical about FA's we went after in the past using us to jack up other team's prices.

& it was the same with Antonio Smith, Wade Smith, even Weaver at the time was the #2 (maybe 3) guy on the FA depth charts. Getting Jjo was no different.

He just outperformed anyone's expectations.

Originally Posted by Goldensilence

Better personnel at DB and certainly helps to have Cushing out there playing like a mad-man.

The personnel thing isn't on him, that's the GM. Cushing... I think his drop off in play was just as much because Bush didn't have the gnads to use him the way he should.

Like I said, it was a gnads issue, not a competency issue.

Originally Posted by Goldensilence

Pollard was good in '09 because he was able to play towards what he is...which is an in the box safety.

Again with the gnads. I don't think Bush didn't know what to do with Pollard, he did a great job with him in 2009. He was just too scared to get burned on the big play..... even though we were still getting burned on the big play.

I know it's hard to say we need to be more aggressive on the front end & "slack-off" on the backend. But if you have faith in your system, like Wade does, you make that call.

Kj has issues. As much as I defend him, I've never denied that. But we brought him in to be a corner in the NFL. If he couldn't hack it, then we need to sit him & see what the next guy has.

I loved Glover Quin at Corner, I loved McCain in the slot. If our front seven played like they did in 2009 & 2011, I'm confident Quin, Eugene, & even Pollard could manage on the back end. We'd have only been vulnerable in one spot..... Kj. Instead, with the way he played it we were vulnerable every where, from the LB level to the Safeties in pass coverage.

But I know he knew better, because he did better in 2009 & he did better in those spurts throughout the season for those comebacks. Just looks like he didn't have any faith.

I think the DC has to have a short memory, just like a QB, just like a DB. Get burned on one play, forget about it & go get them the next time.

[badboy]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

Who's revising? I'm not saying those were good teams or that they did anything other than what they did. All I'm saying, is that those teams were the beginnings of the team we saw in 2011. It was more of an evolutionary thing, not something totally new that started with Wade.

He managed them just fine in 2009. I'm not saying he belongs in the H.O.F. of defensive coordinators, but if nothing else, 2009 proves he was at least competent. & we played much better offenses in 2009 than we played in 2011, including the SuperBowl appearing Kurt Warner led Cardinals & a Peyton Manning led Colts (x2).

How do you go from competent one year to no clue the next? That just doesn't make sense.

They flipped a switch in 2009 after 4 games. It wasn't a case of too little too late. 2010, Frank never adjusted to playing "aggresive" for much of any game. Didn't make sense to me. We got back into games because the defense would play aggressive for small spurts.

Are you saying this for both the 2009 & the 2010 team, or just the 2010 team? I completely agree if the latter.

Again, in 2009, Frank Bush knew... in 2010, he didn't? I don't get it.

Richard Smith, I agree. He was clueless.

irrelevant. Whether Kubiak left or not, the team that played the 2010 season would have been mostly his guys. It's rare to turn a roster over completely in one offseason. We still would have been playing with Kubiak's team & whatever coach would have been here would have been better off than what Kubiak was when he got here. For one, he'd have at least a handful of quality starters on both sides of the ball. Kubiak got here, & there was a WR, LG/LT, & a CB. I might be missing one or two starters from the 2006 team... but only one or two.

He also would have had a competent GM (though I think he's asleep at the wheel a little too often, he's better than the guy Kubiak started with).

He'd also have an owner that actually knows something about the business. McNair was clueless about how things work in the NFL & you can see a big change in how he goes about his business now than 2006. Always a business man, I know that. But he didn't know jack about the NFL.

Antonio is overpaid. Not grossly, not as bad as Weaver was. But he's overpaid.

& we're going to have to define "revising" because I don't know what you mean. I listed the guys we drafted. Not could have drafted, not should have drafted.... but the guys we drafted & remarked on the similarities of them & what I felt was a common theme.

Two points about Dunta, one I'm talking about the money we gave him to play one year. If you're going to call McNair cheap, you have to look at the money he's spending. Aj, Schaub, Dunta.... & all the bad FA moves we made in the past should (but I don't know why it doesn't) squash any "cheap" argument.

The other, as someone else mentioned, Dunta was the best Corner available in 2009.... we franchised him. He was second to Bodden in 2010, we struck out on Bodden & didn't see the value of signing Dunta for another $9M...... what did you expect them to do? **** a Starting Cornerback? If only it were that easy.


Yes.

If I remember right, we were the highest bidder for Manning & Jjo... I don't know if anyone else was interested in Jjo, his own team didn't make him an offer. You seem to be thinking of the 2011 Jjo, not the solid-but-nothing-special 2010 & before Jjo.

Same for Manning, he was probably thought of as damaged goods. I don't know how many people were trying to sign him, but I know Chicago wasn't.

These guys were 2nd tier FAs who we overpaid for, but they played up to their contracts. These are the same type of guys we've gotten in FA before, Wade Smith, Sean Cody, Antonio Smith. Young with potential.


& I just don't think it's "all of a sudden" they've been a missing piece away for a long time. I think the biggest missing piece, is that the average of the group, the core are the veterans that we never had. The keep it together, keep chopping guys that hold everything together & lead on the field. Cushing, Antonio, Quin, Myers, Brown, Winston, Aj....

Yes, I think Jjo & Manning brought some needed veteran leadership. I also think Arian Foster, though he's young brought some of that fiery on the field stuff that Demeco brought with him back in 2006... but back then, he was alone in that regard. We have more on the field leaders than we ever had.

I had been thinking along those lines for a while. In the past, we were making up ways to lose games. That happens when you've got a team of guys who just aren't any good (which I never thought) or when you've got a bunch of young guys out there with no or little leadership.

All other things being equal, yes, you're right, I agree with you & we should probably stop this discussion right here (but you know I won't).

If Frank Bush was here & had the same draft & the same attrition throughout the year, the Titans would have one another game (against us) & won the division with a 10-6 record. We most likely wouldn't have won 6 games.

So yeah, you're right.

At the same time, all I'm saying is had we gone with someone other than Kubiak in 2006, I'm not so sure we would be any better off. It took him a long time, I'm not disagreeing there. But I'd hate to have gone on the coaching carousel the Rams, Bills, Lions, & 49ers have gone on.

Yeah, the 9ers seem to have got it together now, but it took the organization 10 years (I think)... & 2012 will tell us if they've actually got something other than fools gold (same as us).


Explain 2009.

I think the decision pretty much made itself. We weren't going to resign Dunta, I'm good with that decision & will support it 6 ways to Sunday. We didn't resign Reeves.... he & Bennett & Moulden couldn't get on the field anyway... just because they're older doesn't make them better. It's arguable, but I'm not going to give them a hard time about it.

The bigger mistake I think was not being aggresive, trying to compensate for that youth. But being aggressive is what masked Pollard's inability to cover in 2009. It would have helped us (I think) more than hurt us.




Now I think you are the one revising history. In 2009, it wasn't that the defense turned it on too late. They played lights out from week 5 through week 17. We didn't have a running game, couldn't pick up 3rd & short, couldn't punch it into the endzone.... Our failure in 2009 had less to do with the defense than it did with our inability to pick up a yard.

You & GS are doing fine but want to drop a few thoughts in..looking at Bush in 2009 compared to 2010. IIRC, in 2010 Frank tried to increase the amount of his defense he was teaching compared to 2009. I believe I read that about 1/3 though '10 he said he had to "back it down" as it was too complex. Players were about the same so it had to be either his "playbook" or his teaching abilities. I go with the latter. Here is where Wade really impressed me. He had minimal time to install a somewhat different scheme with players whose skills had been chosen for a 4-3. Posters were praying for a D that would land somewhere in the middle of the pack & saying Gary's offense should win enough games to get to first round of playoffs. I am hoping more time to teach will strengthen our guys. This year I am saying if Defense can hold it's own and Offense ramps it up.....

Also, don't want to forget improvement I hope to see Special Teams. Maybe the coach will have some regulars to scheme with if fewer injuries. This in itself could be huge.

[drs23]

Originally Posted by badboy

You & GS are doing fine but want to drop a few thoughts in..looking at Bush in 2009 compared to 2010. IIRC, in 2010 Frank tried to increase the amount of his defense he was teaching compared to 2009. I believe I read that about 1/3 though '10 he said he had to "back it down" as it was too complex. Players were about the same so it had to be either his "playbook" or his teaching abilities. I go with the latter. Here is where Wade really impressed me. He had minimal time to install a somewhat different scheme with players whose skills had been chosen for a 4-3. Posters were praying for a D that would land somewhere in the middle of the pack & saying Gary's offense should win enough games to get to first round of playoffs. I am hoping more time to teach will strengthen our guys. This year I am saying if Defense can hold it's own and Offense ramps it up.....

Also, don't want to forget improvement I hope to see Special Teams. Maybe the coach will have some regulars to scheme with if fewer injuries. This in itself could be huge.

Myself as well. After reading, searching and watching clips (though they're highlights) I'm really looking forward to see Martin in action. I remember Coach Joe's comment about him attacking the middle of the field on his returns and then breaking to the edge and that's exactly what I saw on his YouTube clips. And he looked pretty dadgum crisp running routes out of the slot and behold and low, he actually caught the majority of the passes thrown his way. And when he snagged 'em he knew what to do.

Can't wait for the team to get on the field this offseason and hearing the reports of those able to attend!

[The Pencil Neck]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

If I remember right, we were the highest bidder for Manning & Jjo... I don't know if anyone else was interested in Jjo, his own team didn't make him an offer. You seem to be thinking of the 2011 Jjo, not the solid-but-nothing-special 2010 & before Jjo.

Same for Manning, he was probably thought of as damaged goods. I don't know how many people were trying to sign him, but I know Chicago wasn't.

These guys were 2nd tier FAs who we overpaid for, but they played up to their contracts. These are the same type of guys we've gotten in FA before, Wade Smith, Sean Cody, Antonio Smith. Young with potential.

JJo was the 2nd highest rated CB prospect in FA last year. No one was making him an offer because everyone was waiting for Nnamdi to set the market.

We made NNAMDI the highest offer he received and when he hemmed and hawed playing us off his other bidders, we changed targets and went after JJo and Manning.

Like JJo, Manning was rated the 2nd or 3rd highest available FA safety behind Weddle. There were some questions about Manning but I don't recall what they were.

I considered both of these guys 1st tier FAs and I think they got those kinds of contracts and I think they're living up to them.

[drs23]

Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck

JJo was the 2nd highest rated CB prospect in FA last year. No one was making him an offer because everyone was waiting for Nnamdi to set the market.

We made NNAMDI the highest offer he received and when he hemmed and hawed playing us off his other bidders, we changed targets and went after JJo and Manning.

Like JJo, Manning was rated the 2nd or 3rd highest available FA safety behind Weddle. There were some questions about Manning but I don't recall what they were.

I considered both of these guys 1st tier FAs and I think they got those kinds of contracts and I think they're living up to them.

That's the way I recall it as well. Several here were touting JJo right off the bat. JB was the first to herald him IIRC. Then Rick Smith got tired of Aso's shenanigans fairley quickly and pulled the trigger on the twofer. Great call and execution by the FO I think.

[Texecutioner]

Solidifying? Hopefully so, although many seem to forget that we have had one winning season out of 6 under this regime. The only positive out of that is the fact that we had our best season just last year. I remember hearing this same stuff before the 2010 season and we went 6-10 where the coaching staff should have all been fired. Hopefully they can have back to back great seasons, but we'll wait and see what happens.

[The Pencil Neck]

Originally Posted by Texecutioner

Solidifying? Hopefully so, although many seem to forget that we have had one winning season out of 6 under this regime. The only positive out of that is the fact that we had our best season just last year. I remember hearing this same stuff before the 2010 season and we went 6-10 where the coaching staff should have all been fired. Hopefully they can have back to back great seasons, but we'll wait and see what happens.

That's not exactly true.

We've had 2 losing seasons, 2 even seasons, and 2 winning seasons. We've only been to the playoffs 1 season.

I'm not disagreeing with your point, just that one fact.

[gafftop]

Originally Posted by Texecutioner

Solidifying? Hopefully so, although many seem to forget that we have had one winning season out of 6 under this regime. The only positive out of that is the fact that we had our best season just last year. I remember hearing this same stuff before the 2010 season and we went 6-10 where the coaching staff should have all been fired. Hopefully they can have back to back great seasons, but we'll wait and see what happens.

Yep I agree. Could we see the "Fire" thread raise its ugly head?
I would have felt a whole lot better if we would have had the SAME team (less Mario obviously) as last year with a healthy Schaub and additions (WR, DE/LB, CB)

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by badboy

You & GS are doing fine but want to drop a few thoughts in..looking at Bush in 2009 compared to 2010. IIRC, in 2010 Frank tried to increase the amount of his defense he was teaching compared to 2009. I believe I read that about 1/3 though '10 he said he had to "back it down" as it was too complex. Players were about the same so it had to be either his "playbook" or his teaching abilities. I go with the latter.

I don't know... I don't think our guys are dummies & they should be able to absorb a play-book. No "6" on the wonderlics here.

But I saw a team trying to keep everything in front of them but couldn't. I didn't see Brian Cushing attack the LOS like he did so well in 2009 & 2011..... I know there is the PED thing, but if you watch, he's at the LOS when the ball is snapped in 2009 & 2011, but playing read & react 5 yards back in 2010.

I honestly think it was bad thinking. Trying to get Antonio to plug holes instead of penetrate.... that's what I saw, game after game after game.

It's like going through some of 76Texans' Kj reviews. Technically speaking, the kid isn't doing anything wrong (on the plays he managed to stay on his feet). But if you fall in line with 76's thinking (I know some people don't), just about every play had an element or two of containing the play.....

In 2009 & 2011, the corners were left on an island more times than not & we relied on the pass rush to get to the QB before coverage broke down.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck

JJo was the 2nd highest rated CB prospect in FA last year. No one was making him an offer because everyone was waiting for Nnamdi to set the market.

We made NNAMDI the highest offer he received and when he hemmed and hawed playing us off his other bidders, we changed targets and went after JJo and Manning.

Like JJo, Manning was rated the 2nd or 3rd highest available FA safety behind Weddle. There were some questions about Manning but I don't recall what they were.

I considered both of these guys 1st tier FAs and I think they got those kinds of contracts and I think they're living up to them.

Anthony Weaver was the 2nd highest ranked DE when he was a FA, so was Antonio Smith. Wade Smith was the 2nd highest ranked offensive lineman.

Sean Cody was probably the highest ranked NT when he was a FA. It all depends on who is a FA at what time, being second doesn't necessarily mean you're tier 1 talent.

Everybody was waiting on Nnamdi, because he was considered tier 1. Mario Williams was considered Tier 1.

In a year when you've got an Arian Foster, Ray Rice, and Matt Forte.... you've got three tier one guys who can sign in what ever order..... doesn't matter.

But everybody was waiting on Nnamdi to look at Jjo, because Nnamdi was tier 1 & Jjo wasn't.

If they were free agents this year, it would probably be flip-flopped. But at the time, Jjo was not on anyone's tier 1 list.

& Manning broke his leg or something with the Bears, missed some time.

Originally Posted by drs23

That's the way I recall it as well. Several here were touting JJo right off the bat. JB was the first to herald him IIRC. Then Rick Smith got tired of Aso's shenanigans fairley quickly and pulled the trigger on the twofer. Great call and execution by the FO I think.

Right off the bat everyone knew Nnamdi was going to want a bucket load of cash & Jjo was going to come cheap. The thinking was, "instead of spending a bucket on Nnamdi, spend that same bucket on Jjo & some other quality-starter-type FA."

I was one of those guys. Except I had Ike Taylor ranked ahead of Jjo as far as skill, but would have preferred Jjo because of the age.

Jjo was not tier 1.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

I was one of those guys. Except I had Ike Taylor ranked ahead of Jjo as far as skill, but would have preferred Jjo because of the age.

Jjo was not tier 1.

Joseph's biggest knock had been his ability to stay healthy...

Other than that I think he was considered a top CB in the league.

No he probably wasn't tier 1 in relation to Aso, but I think you might be selling Joseph a bit short. The guy was a stud before coming here.

[badboy]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

I don't know... I don't think our guys are dummies & they should be able to absorb a play-book. No "6" on the wonderlics here.

But I saw a team trying to keep everything in front of them but couldn't. I didn't see Brian Cushing attack the LOS like he did so well in 2009 & 2011..... I know there is the PED thing, but if you watch, he's at the LOS when the ball is snapped in 2009 & 2011, but playing read & react 5 yards back in 2010.

I honestly think it was bad thinking. Trying to get Antonio to plug holes instead of penetrate.... that's what I saw, game after game after game.

It's like going through some of 76Texans' Kj reviews. Technically speaking, the kid isn't doing anything wrong (on the plays he managed to stay on his feet). But if you fall in line with 76's thinking (I know some people don't), just about every play had an element or two of containing the play.....

In 2009 & 2011, the corners were left on an island more times than not & we relied on the pass rush to get to the QB before coverage broke down.

There were definitley some bad management calls such as Antonio & having Cush playing out of position a game or two.