Badboy, rmartin65 & beerlover Final 2012 Group Mock

[Rey]

Originally Posted by badboy

Come on Rey! lol Who is the better passing option in first? Passing game with or without Matt needs a major upgrade, even the "wise" ESPN & John McClain thinks so.

Trade? Ok, who and what? We have committed to our guys, tell us yours.

I didn't specify first round. And when I say better I don't necessarily mean better players, but rather better options/value.

I think there will be more talented players than fleener on the board. And I honestly believe Casey is ready to be the second TE and play the role that a lot of people envisioned him playing. I'd much rather have casey on the field in the slot or as a second TE than fleener.

IMO, there are players that will be available that can probably help the team more especially on the defensive side of the ball.

Who are my guys?

I'd rather have hill, worthy, mcclellin, Hightower, randle, wright, Gilmore, zeitler, Alshon in no particular order. Not to mention a trade down.

I think if we are looking for another pass catching TE we'd be better served taking Ladarius green in the 3rd or 4th.

I think there are many reasons to not take fleener in the first.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by powda

. Some people were just to impressed with new englands offense last year.

I think something people fail to look at when they look at graham and gronk is who was throwing those guys the ball and the type of offenses those teams run.

We are very balanced offensively so 1, a lot of those guys wouldn't get those same opportunities here and 2 schaub is good but he's no brady or brees.

Give me Casey as the second TE and I'm good with what we have there. I actually like what I've seen out of graham too. If we take a TE it shouldn't be until the 3rd or 4th at the earliest.

[mussop]

Originally Posted by Rey

I think there will be more talented players than fleener on the board. And I honestly believe Casey is ready to be the second TE and play the role that a lot of people envisioned him playing. I'd much rather have casey on the field in the slot or as a second TE than fleener.

No one on the Texans has mentioned moving Casey back to TE. Don't see how having Casey and OD on the field at the same time would be better than having Casey, OD and Fleener.


IMO, there are players that will be available that can probably help the team more especially on the defensive side of the ball.


Don't necessarily disagree with their being defensive players available that could help more.

Who are my guys?

I'd rather have hill, worthy, mcclellin, Hightower, randle, wright, Gilmore, zeitler, Alshon in no particular order. Not to mention a trade down.

hill To big a gamble IMO
worthy is defiantly worthy
mcclellin My guy but the concussions scare me a little
Hightower defiantly
randle have him and Fleener tied as prospects but Fleener wins because of Schaub.
wright not rated as high as Fleener because of speed and height.
Gilmore can't see him lasting this long.
zeitler another one of my guys from the beginning. 10 year starter well worth the 26 pick.
Alshon wouldn't draft him before the 5th round. Too many issues.



I think if we are looking for another pass catching TE we'd be better served taking Ladarius green in the 3rd or 4th.

Maybe not a bad idea.

I think there are many reasons to not take fleener in the first.

I see many reasons why taking Fleener in the first would be a good idea.

Originally Posted by Rey

I think something people fail to look at when tey look at graham and gronk is who was throwing those guys the ball and the type of offenses those teams run.

First let me say that NE has ZERO influence on why I think Fleener would be a good pick by us. Now, I think some people are forgetting who our QB is, what his weaknesses are and how much we utilize the 2 TE set.

We are very balanced offensively so 1, a lot of those guys wouldn't get those same opportunities here and 2 schaub is good but he's no brady or brees.

Schaub is no Brady or Breeze thats for sure. He is one of the worst deep ball throwers when compared to any of the top 10 or 15 QB's. This is why we need someone like Fleener who can create miss matches in the red zone.

Give me Casey as the second TE and I'm good with what we have there.

Again NO ONE has said Casey is moving TE. Until then I'm going to assume he's not.

I actually like what I've seen out of graham too.

What the hell have you seen? He's had one catch in two years.

If we take a TE it shouldn't be until the 3rd or 4th at the earliest.

This is what is most likely going to happen.

[Lucky]

Originally Posted by mussop

Alshon wouldn't draft him before the 5th round. Too many issues.

5th round? Really? Other than weight fluxuation, what are the "many issues" Jeffery has?

[mussop]

Originally Posted by Lucky

5th round? Really? Other than weight fluxuation, what are the "many issues" Jeffery has?

Sorry should of said to many red flags. Scouts have said he plays the game hard but nothing else. Sorry I can't trust a player with a high draft pick that shows up his last year before going into the draft out of shape. Although I know you already know this, here is some info about him that is well documented.

Jeffery caught just 49 passes in 2011, and appeared to be out-of-shape for most of the season. There were rumors that he ballooned to 250 pounds, though broadcasters politely referred to him as "230+ pounds." Whatever his exact weight, he was clearly carrying the kind of baggage that would spark pregnancy rumors if he were a Hollywood starlet.

Jeffery showed up at the scouting combine in great shape, and he arrived at his Pro Day at a tight 213 pounds, allowing him to run a sub 4.5 forty. Jeffery proved that he can get in shape when he has to, but questions linger after 2011: with his ping-ponging production and waistline, are we looking at a top prospect who overcame a rough patch, or the male Oprah Winfrey?

Jeffery lacks quick-cutting ability, and he spent much of 2011 failing to get separation from defensive backs because he couldn't make tight cuts on his short routes. Weight issues were probably a factor, but even in 2010 route sharpness was not his strong suit.

South Carolina ran a lot of tunnel screens to get the ball to Jeffery, but Jeffery lacks open-field niftiness, so those plays were usually little more than long handoffs for three or four yards. Jeffery and the Gamecocks suffered through an ugly five-game run late in the season when he essentially disappeared from the offense: he had 10 catches for 84 yards in one four-game stretch, interrupted by a five-catch effort against the mighty Citadel.

This was a time of transition for South Carolina, as the team was breaking Conner Shaw in at quarterback after the Stephen Garcia meltdown, but the team really needed its top receiver to be part of the solution, not a pudgy problem.

Scouting reports on Jeffery's blocking vary widely. He may be an example of a "camera's on" blocker, ratcheting up his effort level when he knows he will appear in a highlight. (See: Moss, Randy).


Its more than just fluctuating weight. What is his mindset to allow this to happen at such an important time in his football career? That is a huge concern for a high draft pick IMO. How can you feel comfortable using such a valuable asset not knowing if you will be able to count on him being mentally prepared and in shape to help the team when you really need him? To me that is a bigger red flag than a college player getting a DUI.

[Lucky]

Originally Posted by mussop

How can you feel comfortable using such a valuable asset not knowing if you will be able to count on him being mentally prepared and in shape to help the team when you really need him? To me that is a bigger red flag than a college player getting a DUI.

But you said 5th round. Was that hyperbole? Not a 1st round pick, okay. But not even a 4th round selection on a dynamic WR with NFL measurables?

Despite all of the "red flags" Jeffery has more big plays than just about any WR in this draft. I would love to draft the guy in the 2nd, because he would have a huge chip on his shoulder throughout his rookie contract. Some team's going to get a 80 catch, 1200 yard WR in the 2nd round this year.

[mussop]

Originally Posted by Lucky

But you said 5th round. Was that hyperbole? Not a 1st round pick, okay. But not even a 4th round selection on a dynamic WR with NFL measurables?

Despite all of the "red flags" Jeffery has more big plays than just about any WR in this draft. I would love to draft the guy in the 2nd, because he would have a huge chip on his shoulder throughout his rookie contract. Some team's going to get a 80 catch, 1200 yard WR in the 2nd round this year.

Alot of that has to do with this particular draft class. There are a whole bunch of guys I really like in the mid rounds (3,4) that I really want over someone with questionable work ethic.

I love the hard working, high motor guys that have a passion for the game and loath players with talent that act entitled. Just my thing I guess.

[SteveSlaton20]

Originally Posted by Rey

Lots of players boost their stock due to the combine.

Kind of weird to talk about his lack of production and at the same time pimp fleener.


I think if Hannah was in that system with luck throwing him passes he'd have been more productive.

The NFL is full of good te's. Almost every team has one. Sorry, but I don't see the value of us taking fleener in the first.

I think there are other options for TE that can be just as productive in our system.

Hannah was in a spread system with Landry Jones throwing it to him, who's probably a first round QB next year. Fleener was in a pro offense with great balance.

Good mock, don't really like using a 6th round on a K tho, especially when we just used a 5th on a third stringer. if randy is there at the 7th round, great. if not, there are other kickers id be fine with as long it isn't kris brown or neil rackers.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by SteveSlaton20

Hannah was in a spread system with Landry Jones throwing it to him, who's probably a first round QB next year. Fleener was in a pro offense with great balance.
.

That is a good point, but it doesn't really mean much.

I think most would agree that luck was the better qb and pro style offended tend to utilize the TE more than spread offenses which was exactly my point.

[mussop]

Originally Posted by Rey

That is a good point, but it doesn't really mean much.

I think most would agree that luck was the better qb and pro style offended tend to utilize the TE more than spread offenses which was exactly my point.

Hanna wasn't used like a traditional TE in that offense.

[badboy]

Originally Posted by SteveSlaton20

Hannah was in a spread system with Landry Jones throwing it to him, who's probably a first round QB next year. Fleener was in a pro offense with great balance.

Good mock, don't really like using a 6th round on a K tho, especially when we just used a 5th on a third stringer. if randy is there at the 7th round, great. if not, there are other kickers id be fine with as long it isn't kris brown or neil rackers.

We have to have a kicker and if we can get the best in nation in 6th round why not? We have to compete with too many other teams in UDFA to chance that.

[Playoffs]

One NFL scout suggested that Stanford TE Coby Fleener "might be the most overrated guy in the draft" because he doesn't block and is more of a buildup-speed threat as a pass catcher.

"He wasn't even the best tight end on their team," the scout said. "No. 11 (sophomore Levine Toilolo), that's the real deal. (Fleener) might be the most overrated guy in the draft. He's awful as a blocker. Despite his workout numbers he's really not a quick-twitch, dynamic-moving guy. He's a straight-line, build-up player." The scout may be being overly critical of Fleener, but his first-round buzz seems to have died down in recent weeks. Apr 22 - 3:15 PM
--------------------------

Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Worth noting Charley Casserly has echoed scout's eval of Fleener as "straight-line, buildup player" lacking "quick-twitch" athleticism.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by mussop

I see many reasons why taking Fleener in the first would be a good idea.





This is what is most likely going to happen.

I know this is a radical concept, but I actually like what graham has done in pre season.

I didn't specify regular season, you did.

I guess fleener is a terrible option by those standards since he has 0 NFL catches.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by Playoffs

One NFL scout suggested that Stanford TE Coby Fleener "might be the most overrated guy in the draft" because he doesn't block and is more of a buildup-speed threat as a pass catcher.

"He wasn't even the best tight end on their team," the scout said. "No. 11 (sophomore Levine Toilolo), that's the real deal. (Fleener) might be the most overrated guy in the draft. He's awful as a blocker. Despite his workout numbers he's really not a quick-twitch, dynamic-moving guy. He's a straight-line, build-up player." The scout may be being overly critical of Fleener, but his first-round buzz seems to have died down in recent weeks. Apr 22 - 3:15 PM
--------------------------

Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Worth noting Charley Casserly has echoed scout's eval of Fleener as "straight-line, buildup player" lacking "quick-twitch" athleticism.

Fleener is going to eat teams alive in the seams.

I don't think he'll be all that with the ball in his hands and u don't see him as a great jump ball guy.

[badboy]

Originally Posted by Playoffs

One NFL scout suggested that Stanford TE Coby Fleener "might be the most overrated guy in the draft" because he doesn't block and is more of a buildup-speed threat as a pass catcher.

"He wasn't even the best tight end on their team," the scout said. "No. 11 (sophomore Levine Toilolo), that's the real deal. (Fleener) might be the most overrated guy in the draft. He's awful as a blocker. Despite his workout numbers he's really not a quick-twitch, dynamic-moving guy. He's a straight-line, build-up player." The scout may be being overly critical of Fleener, but his first-round buzz seems to have died down in recent weeks. Apr 22 - 3:15 PM
--------------------------

Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Worth noting Charley Casserly has echoed scout's eval of Fleener as "straight-line, buildup player" lacking "quick-twitch" athleticism.

Why didn't you post the comments from the second scout that was mentioned? Almost all mocks I've seen have Fleener in late first to top 8 or so of second.

[mussop]

Originally Posted by Rey

I know this is a radical concept, but I actually like what graham has done in pre season.

I didn't specify regular season, you did.

I guess fleener is a terrible option by those standards since he has 0 NFL catches.

Please enlighten us, what is it that Graham has done in the "PRE-SEASON" that has impressed you?

For the bolded Seriously Rey, seriously? Cmon you are better than this.

[mussop]

Originally Posted by Rey

Fleener is going to eat teams alive in the seams.

I don't think he'll be all that with the ball in his hands and u don't see him as a great jump ball guy.

HUH??? Are you saying he won't be a great jump ball guy or are you asking someone if thats what they think? I'm confused.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by mussop

Please enlighten us, what is it that Graham has done in the "PRE-SEASON" that has impressed you?

For the bolded Seriously Rey, seriously? Cmon you are better than this.

Grahm has done well in pre season.

Go look at the last pre season game from this past year. He did very well catching and blocking.

I think he almost had 100 yards receiving.

I can't see what's bolded, I'm on Tapatalk.

But I assume it's the fleener bit?

My point is that Grahm has shown more on the NFL level than any rookie TE has. Doesn't mean he will be better, but my point is that proving it in a real NFL game shouldn't be the only criteria. You can never prove anything if you never get a chance to.

Same as Casey.

And Casey played some TE last year. Vickers was the starting fb to end the season.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by mussop

HUH??? Are you saying he won't be a great jump ball guy or are you asking someone if thats what they think? I'm confused.

That "u" should have been an "I". My typing gets wonky when I use Tapatalk.

But no, I dont see fleener as a jump ball guy. Not that he can't do it, but I don't think he will be looked at to do it consistently like gronk or Grahm or gates.

I didn't see him doing that a lot in college.

[Playoffs]

Originally Posted by badboy

Why didn't you post the comments from the second scout that was mentioned? Almost all mocks I've seen have Fleener in late first to top 8 or so of second.

I posted what was written on Rotoworld: http://rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7418/coby-fleener

I don't know what "second scout" you're talking about?