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Mussops mock

M

mussop

Hall of Fame
1st Coby Fleener TE Stanford Sr 6-6 247

With all the 2 TE sets we run and the pending cap problems/huge contract OD has going into next year, getting a top flight TE should be important. Fleener is the best TE in this draft period and is as close as you get to can't miss.

2nd Mitchell Schwartz OT California Sr 6-5 318

We have no real depth at OT and Schwartz is a perfect fit for our system. He can also play OG.


3rd Mike Martin DT Michigan Sr 6-1 306

Adding another active player to our front seven rotation is going to pay huge dividends down the dtretch.

4th a Greg Childs WR Arkansas Sr 6-3 219

Do I need to explain this pick?

4th b Derek Wolfe DE Cincinnati Sr 6-5 295

AGAIN = Adding another active player to our front seven rotation is going to pay huge dividends down the stretch.


5th Audie Cole ILB NC State rSr 6-4 246

Competition for Sharpton. Have to have more quality depth here.

6th Evan Rodriguez FB Temple Sr 6-1 239

Backs up Casey and don't have to change anything when he is in.

7th J.R. Sweezy DT NC State rSr 6-5 298

AGAIN = Adding another active player to our front seven rotation is going to pay huge dividends down the stretch.
 
I like it. Fleener will be a terrific pro. My only issue is we need an OLB. If we lost Barwin or Reed we'd be hurting.
 
IMHO, Nading was just as good a player as Reed was last year. Meaning, Reed as a Rookie was comparable to Nading as a vet. Meaning, if Nading was in instead of Reed I think we'd have gotten similar production out of the position.

I think Reed will likely be better than Nading moving forward because Reed is the more talented player.

But my point is that I don't think we are hurting there as much as people tend to think.

Also, Braman is a project player, but the only way he will ever stop being that is to actually play. I'd like to see what he can do getting a few snaps here and there.

All that said, I wouldn't complain at all with a OLB in the draft to add to the rotation. I just don't think it's a must get position where you may pass up more talented players at other positions to grab a perceived need.
 
Fantastic mock my man. I would absolutely love this draft.

The only thing I see wrong with it is Wolfe going at the end of the 4th round. It will be a crime if he lasts that long, dude is a beast.
 
Hmmmm... Mussop, I respect the hell out of the way you know your game, so take whatever I have to say with a grain of salt (and try not to think I'm crapping on your draft) :tiphat:

Coby Fleener - I just don't see the Texans drafting a TE with the first pick. They like TEs they can groom. With OD spending at least one more year as a Texan, and having groomed Graham to be a starter this year, that equals 2 quality TEs. Or, if Graham looks like crap, then Casey's up to bat. That means there's no problem with getting a TE in the lower rounds at least for depth this year. Next year might be different.

OT - Just not sure the Texans take OL this high either when obviously the Texans are sending the signal that they have the depth the like. Maybe.

Martin, Childs, Wolfe, Cole & Sweezy. I love all these picks by round. If any late round WR could be a difference maker right away it would be Childs.

FB - I think it's wasted pick this high on Rodriguez

So, I guess all in all I would be cool with it if the Texans drafted like this since that's 5/8. :bravo:
 
I like this mock. I think Fleener is a better TE than any of the receivers that will available for us to draft. We need a red zone guy and with Dressen gone, we'll need someone to fill his gap. It's unlikely, but a bold pick imo.
 
I like players 1 through 5 and would be happy if the Draft fell this way. Having said that, I don't think the Texans would go with Fleener in the 1st. Since Dreessen left I think they will draft another TE but probably later in the Draft. If they have him rated higher than any of the WR's, OLB's, ILB's, DE's, and DT's on the board when they pick in the 1st, then I guess it's possible. I just don't think they will go that way in the 1st.

Don't think they will get 2 DT's or pick a FB either. They can get a UDFA FB later. I would think they pick another QB late for development. We don't have enough QB's right now to go to camp. Also, if they don't sign Rackers, they may draft a Kicker for the 1st time. Bullock anyone?
 
I'd take this draft. Fleener was much quicker then expected at his pro day. Truth is most of our Te's are more conventional, but Fleener is the type of
TE that would create mismatches.

If he's there at 26 and no one else better is on the board I hope the FO will give him a look.
 
I absolutely love your first 4 picks. After that, it gets a little dicey. But those first 4 picks are awesome.
 
A long time ago I put together a mock with Dwayne Allen as the 1st pick for the same reasons getting used here, Texans utilize 2TE sets, Dreesen is gone, better than the WR available, etc.

Good to see people have come around since then because I got ripped for it. Dislike picks 2/3 but other than that solid effort.
 
TimeKiller said:
A long time ago I put together a mock with Dwayne Allen as the 1st pick for the same reasons getting used here, Texans utilize 2TE sets, Dreesen is gone, better than the WR available, etc.

Good to see people have come around since then because I got ripped for it. Dislike picks 2/3 but other than that solid effort.
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I think it's because nobody really likes Allen as a prospect. Guy has gone from a fringe 1st rounder to a 2nd-3rd round guy in a matter of 2 months. Fleener is a far superior prospect.

Also, Dreessen was still an UFA at the time and I'm sure everyone was holding out hope that he'd re-sign.
 
Seriously doubt Kubiak would take a TE in first.
Schwartz is another tempting prospect but taking him here also presses his value higher out of need than it should.
Can't argue with Martin since he is here in my mock as well. Perfect rotational/depth NT who has starter mentality.
Childs hands are inconsistent, injury aside.
Wolfe won't last this late.
Nor will Audi Cole, gone late 3rd/early 4th.
Texans will probably pick up TE very late, or off waiver wire when teams trim rosters.
Sweezy good late round developmental pick.
 
mussop said:
1st Coby Fleener TE Stanford Sr 6-6 247

With all the 2 TE sets we run and the pending cap problems/huge contract OD has going into next year, getting a top flight TE should be important. Fleener is the best TE in this draft period and is as close as you get to can't miss.
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Not a fan of the 1st round TE route. I feel we already have very talented pass catching TE's on the roster.

mussop said:
2nd Mitchell Schwartz OT California Sr 6-5 318

We have no real depth at OT and Schwartz is a perfect fit for our system. He can also play OG.
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I can get on board with this.

mussop said:
3rd Mike Martin DT Michigan Sr 6-1 306

Adding another active player to our front seven rotation is going to pay huge dividends down the dtretch.
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I like Martin, just not in the 3rd.

mussop said:
4th a Greg Childs WR Arkansas Sr 6-3 219

Do I need to explain this pick?
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I like this pick. Could be a steal in the draft.

mussop said:
4th b Derek Wolfe DE Cincinnati Sr 6-5 295

AGAIN = Adding another active player to our front seven rotation is going to pay huge dividends down the stretch.
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I can get on board with this selection too.

mussop said:
5th Audie Cole ILB NC State rSr 6-4 246

Competition for Sharpton. Have to have more quality depth here.
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Would be a nice masher in the middle.

mussop said:
6th Evan Rodriguez FB Temple Sr 6-1 239

Backs up Casey and don't have to change anything when he is in.
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Not sure Kubiak would spend a draft pick on a FB. Can get one vai UDFA.

mussop said:
7th J.R. Sweezy DT NC State rSr 6-5 298

AGAIN = Adding another active player to our front seven rotation is going to pay huge dividends down the stretch.
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Depth is good.
 
I'd be on a rampage if we drafted a TE in the first round. Hate that pick. Also I dont believe the texans will draft a true full back. They dont seem to value the position enough to spend picks or $$ on it.
 
WolverineFan said:
I think it's because nobody really likes Allen as a prospect. Guy has gone from a fringe 1st rounder to a 2nd-3rd round guy in a matter of 2 months. Fleener is a far superior prospect.

Also, Dreessen was still an UFA at the time and I'm sure everyone was holding out hope that he'd re-sign.
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I guess I was leading the pack on that one too. I thought he should've been out regardless of who offered him what, I know he's a Kubiak guy but he was replaced before he left. Unless it was for vet minimum he wasn't coming back.

I also did the mock when Allen was considered the #1 TE before Fleener ran really fast on a track and made everybody giddy! This is a pretty weak TE draft overall don't you think?
 
TimeKiller said:
I guess I was leading the pack on that one too. I thought he should've been out regardless of who offered him what, I know he's a Kubiak guy but he was replaced before he left. Unless it was for vet minimum he wasn't coming back.

I also did the mock when Allen was considered the #1 TE before Fleener ran really fast on a track and made everybody giddy! This is a pretty weak TE draft overall don't you think?
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I was saying Fleener was the best TE during the college season. He just didn't start getting mad hype/attention until after his combine. That tends to happen with TE's.

But yes TE is very weak this year. There are a few solid prospects, but only 1 guy you could consider a top talent.
 
And don't even act like Tajh Boyd is on Andrew Luck's level...lol...

I still think Allen is worth a 2nd. There are a lot of interesting prospects at TE...just not many good ones! Green is like a mega WR but that is kind of scheme specific and I don't think the Texans want to spread it out to that extent. Fleener is kind of that way too, he wasn't making a name blocking anybody. Orson Charles could be the ultimate H-back prospect but a 2nd might be a bit much for me. Emil Igwenagu is a later round guy I've picked up on, seems like a decent option who could develop like Casey did, I think another guy like that would serve better than a slobber knocker FB would.
 
Rey said:
IMHO, Nading was just as good a player as Reed was last year. Meaning, Reed as a Rookie was comparable to Nading as a vet. Meaning, if Nading was in instead of Reed I think we'd have gotten similar production out of the position.

I think Reed will likely be better than Nading moving forward because Reed is the more talented player.

But my point is that I don't think we are hurting there as much as people tend to think.

Also, Braman is a project player, but the only way he will ever stop being that is to actually play. I'd like to see what he can do getting a few snaps here and there.

All that said, I wouldn't complain at all with a OLB in the draft to add to the rotation. I just don't think it's a must get position where you may pass up more talented players at other positions to grab a perceived need.
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This! Add to that the panicky WR responses that are rampant around here is why I did this mock. Just wanted to hit it from another angle than gotta have a WR and an OLB with the first two picks approach that you see here so much.

WolverineFan said:
Fantastic mock my man. I would absolutely love this draft.

The only thing I see wrong with it is Wolfe going at the end of the 4th round. It will be a crime if he lasts that long, dude is a beast.
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Man I'm having a hard time with figuring out just where Wolfe is going to end up. I love him and would take him over Still who mentioned in the first round all the time. I just can't get a handle on him for some reason.


EVOLVIST said:
Hmmmm... Mussop, I respect the hell out of the way you know your game, so take whatever I have to say with a grain of salt (and try not to think I'm crapping on your draft) :tiphat:

Thank you very much.

Coby Fleener - I just don't see the Texans drafting a TE with the first pick. They like TEs they can groom. With OD spending at least one more year as a Texan, and having groomed Graham to be a starter this year, that equals 2 quality TEs. Or, if Graham looks like crap, then Casey's up to bat. That means there's no problem with getting a TE in the lower rounds at least for depth this year. Next year might be different.

I don't see Graham as anything but depth. If he had any ability I think he wold of made more than one catch in the last couple of years. Hope I'm wrong on that one for sure! As I stated in my mock, I believe there is a high possibility that OD could be let go next year. Fleener would be great insurance if that were to happen.

OT - Just not sure the Texans take OL this high either when obviously the Texans are sending the signal that they have the depth the like. Maybe.

Are they sending that signal or did they just get raided? I think the latter. We will find out soon.

Martin, Childs, Wolfe, Cole & Sweezy. I love all these picks by round. If any late round WR could be a difference maker right away it would be Childs.

After his pro day its unlikely he falls this far but if he did I would jump on him. I considered picking him in the third but Martin looks like he is going to be a solid rotation guy that fits well into our scheme and blue print type player and Childs is coming off injury so.... I also really like Ryan Broyles of Oklahoma if he's there late for slot and return duties.

FB - I think it's wasted pick this high on Rodriguez
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I really like this guy. He is a Casey clone as far as ability and game type. I don't think we need a sledge hammer type. If we really want one of those Owen Schmidt (sp?) could be had really cheap via FA. Playing fullback is taxing on players and with Rodriguez backing up Casey it would ensure that we wouldn't have to deviate from our game plan when Casey was getting a break. Thats pretty good value for a late 6th round pick IMO.



Nawzer said:
I like this mock. I think Fleener is a better TE than any of the receivers that will available for us to draft. We need a red zone guy and with Dressen gone, we'll need someone to fill his gap. It's unlikely, but a bold pick imo.
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We have to have another reliable red zone threat or we are going to be in big trouble. The last thing we need is to start kicking field goals over and over in the red zone again. Remember that? Maybe we can find that later in the draft I don't know but IMO Fleener looks like he comes in and contributes right away in that role.

Insideop said:
I like players 1 through 5 and would be happy if the Draft fell this way. Having said that, I don't think the Texans would go with Fleener in the 1st. Since Dreessen left I think they will draft another TE but probably later in the Draft. If they have him rated higher than any of the WR's, OLB's, ILB's, DE's, and DT's on the board when they pick in the 1st, then I guess it's possible. I just don't think they will go that way in the 1st.

Probably not! But I don't think it's a bad idea and I would be happy if we were to draft Fleener there.


Don't think they will get 2 DT's or pick a FB either. They can get a UDFA FB later. I would think they pick another QB late for development. We don't have enough QB's right now to go to camp. Also, if they don't sign Rackers, they may draft a Kicker for the 1st time. Bullock anyone?
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I think we have to add depth on the DLine. We play to aggressively and our front seven will be wore out late in the year if we don't find some quality depth there. We very well could sign a FB in FA or as an UDFA. I just like Rodriquez because he brings versatility to the FB position like Casey.


beerlover said:
Seriously doubt Kubiak would take a TE in first.

Answered this above.

Schwartz is another tempting prospect but taking him here also presses his value higher out of need than it should.

Remember where we are drafting. He likely won't be there late third. He fits our mold and at the very least adds quality depth to a very depleted position. It's possible he could become a starter inside at some point this year. Reminds me alot of Breisel. His run blocking is very under rated.

Can't argue with Martin since he is here in my mock as well. Perfect rotational/depth NT who has starter mentality.
Childs hands are inconsistent, injury aside.

Looks fully recovered from injury. Has size and speed and playmaking ability. Would be a steal in the 4th round.

Wolfe won't last this late.

You're probably right. Still I hope somehow we end up with him.

Nor will Audi Cole, gone late 3rd/early 4th.

I don't see him going that high. I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time. That said I really like him.
Texans will probably pick up TE very late, or off waiver wire when teams trim rosters.

Most likely scenario.

Sweezy good late round developmental pick.
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Yeh I really like him and Matt Conrath as late round guys for our D.


powda said:
I'd be on a rampage if we drafted a TE in the first round. Hate that pick.
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That would be short sighted for reasons i stated above.

powda said:
Also I dont believe the texans will draft a true full back. They dont seem to value the position enough to spend picks or $$ on it.
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We went out and signed Vickers last year in FA. They must value it a little. And Rodriguez isn't a "true fullback" in the traditional mold. He is a Casey type that is only an adequate blocker but bring the element of being a really good receiver out of the backfield and is really really good after the catch. When I say adequate blocker I mean he isn't going to bowl over to many people but knows how to use his body to seal off and puts good effort into it.
 
mussop said:
That would be short sighted for reasons i stated above.
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Why do I feel like someone's trying to sale me snake oil? If you want to shake it up to get a response to your mock thats cool. If you genuinely believe we need a tight end in the first your short sighted. I dont doubt for a second we will draft a TE ,but to suggest its a priority need with all the other holes on this roster is short sighted. We have plenty of people whom can attack the defense horizontially on short crossing routes etc. What we dont have is anyone other then AJ who threatens deep (be it by speed or after the catch ability.)

I stand by my statement. If we draft a TE in the first i'll go ballistic.

mussop said:
We went out and signed Vickers last year in FA. They must value it a little.
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We sign players at all positions. They liked Vickers so much he's in Dallas now. Kubiak has never drafted a full back (don't chime in with Casey who was a hybrid do all in college).
 
powda said:
Why do I feel like someone's trying to sale me snake oil? If you want to shake it up to get a response to your mock thats cool. If you genuinely believe we need a tight end in the first your short sighted. I dont doubt for a second we will draft a TE ,but to suggest its a priority need with all the other holes on this roster is short sighted. We have plenty of people whom can attack the defense horizontially on short crossing routes etc. What we dont have is anyone other then AJ who threatens deep (be it by speed or after the catch ability.)

I stand by my statement. If we draft a TE in the first i'll go ballistic.



We sign players at all positions. They liked Vickers so much he's in Dallas now. Kubiak has never drafted a full back (don't chime in with Casey who was a hybrid do all in college).
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Kubiak views the TE position as one that can be developed easier than most with deep pool to draw from, similar case with FB. not going to pay them big bucks, Daniels deal was very generous (Rick Smith standards) exception to the rule.
 
beerlover said:
Kubiak views the TE position as one that can be developed easier than most with deep pool to draw from, similar case with FB. not going to pay them big bucks, Daniels deal was very generous (Rick Smith standards) exception to the rule.
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I have never heard Kubiak say that.

I think that Kubiak has worked with the resources he's had available, but if he has the opprotunity to grab a Gronkowski, Hernandez, Jimmy Grahm, Shannon Sharpe, Tony Gonzalez, Antonio Gates type TE he will do so in a heartbeat...

The problem that you run into with marginal players and coaching them up to be good in your system is that you end up over valuing them and ultimately over spending on them...

I'd rather pay an elite player top money than to pay a good player that you have made look great.
 
Rey said:
I have never heard Kubiak say that.

I think that Kubiak has worked with the resources he's had available, but if he has the opprotunity to grab a Gronkowski, Hernandez, Jimmy Grahm, Shannon Sharpe, Tony Gonzalez, Antonio Gates type TE he will do so in a heartbeat...

The problem that you run into with marginal players and coaching them up to be good in your system is that you end up over valuing them and ultimately over spending on them...

I'd rather pay an elite player top money than to pay a good player that you have made look great.
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Kubiaks not going to say this but his actions speak for themselves.

  • Owen Daniels, 4th rd. 2006
  • Anthony Hill, 4th rd. 2009
  • James Casey, 5th rd. 2009
  • Garrett Graham, 4th rd. 2010
  • Dorian Dickerson, 7th rd. 2010
  • Joel Dreessen, 6th rd. (Jets) 2005 acquired by Texans 2006 as a FA

This notion Texans cannot replace Joel a good teammate & person, well, is laughable :overreact:
 
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beerlover said:
[*]Anthony Dickerson, 7th rd. 2010
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Think you mean Dorian Dickerson but your point stands strong nonetheless. No argument here.

beerlover said:
This notion Texans cannot replace Joel a good teammate & person, well, is laughable :overreact:
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According to mussop we're shortsighted if we dont believe the Texans have to use a first round pick to replace him.
 
powda said:
Think you mean Dorian Dickerson but your point stands strong nonetheless. No argument here.



According to mussop we're shortsighted if we dont believe the Texans have to use a first round pick to replace him.
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Learn how to read! Until then it's a waste of time responding to you.

Beerlover show me anyone that has said Dreeson can't be replaced.
 
mussop said:
Learn how to read! Until then it's a waste of time responding to you.
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If you dont want an opinion dont post a mock draft. I expressed my reasons why Tight end in the first would be a waste. I dont see the practicality in it when we have far more pressing needs. Those needs are at more important positions with less depth.

Your infatuated with a player. It happens to everyone every draft.
 
beerlover said:
Kubiaks not going to say this but his actions speak for themselves.

  • Owen Daniels, 4th rd. 2006
  • Anthony Hill, 4th rd. 2009
  • James Casey, 5th rd. 2009
  • Garrett Graham, 4th rd. 2010
  • Dorian Dickerson, 7th rd. 2010
  • Joel Dreessen, 6th rd. (Jets) 2005 acquired by Texans 2006 as a FA

This notion Texans cannot replace Joel a good teammate & person, well, is laughable :overreact:
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I never said that the Texans can't replace Joel.

Dorin Dickerson was drafted as a WR.


That out of the way, OD was the first TE Kubiak drafted. He worked out, so there really hasn't been a need to draft a guy high. Dreesen came a long and played well and the need to draft a TE high lessened even more.

Kubiak has been on the job for less than a decade. I don't think you can say that he's against drafting TE's high based on the other needs we've had/OD and Dreesen being pretty good...

We've never taken a WR in the first round either...We've never taken a guard in the first round...We'd never taken a RB anywhere close to the 2nd round...We'd never taken an O-lineman anywhere near the first round until we took Duane...

We've never spent a high draft pick on a QB in the draft...

Kubiak had never hired a proven d-coordinator like Wade...

What does all that mean?

Nothing.

There is a first time for everything.

My point is that if a player is more talented than everyone on the board and/or you feel you can utilize that player to be a supreme differnce maker in your system then you have to consider drafting them.
 
powda said:
If you dont want an opinion dont post a mock draft. I expressed my reasons why Tight end in the first would be a waste. I dont see the practicality in it when we have far more pressing needs. Those needs are at more important positions with less depth.

Your infatuated with a player. It happens to everyone every draft.
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He could wind up being the next Jimmy Graham. That doesn't intrigue you at all? Him and OD on the field together would be scary. We do have more pressing needs but TE could use a boost and why limit the first round pick to a dire need anyway, all you do is wind up with an inferior player who starts early. Picking at 26 in the draft with a talented team already in place gives us the opportunity to really go BPA. I won't cry if we pass on him but Fleener is definitely on my short list.
 
powda said:
I expressed my reasons why Tight end in the first would be a waste. I dont see the practicality in it when we have far more pressing needs. Those needs are at more important positions with less depth.

Your infatuated with a player. It happens to everyone every draft.
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If we can find a TE that can split out and/or play in the slot it's just as good as getting a WR in the first round. Maybe even better.

It's not like he'd struggle to get on the field.
 
1. Fleener, although I think Fleener will be an excellent player in the NFL and I agree with the notion of taking a player 1 yr. ahead of when they're needed so they can learn before they replace the expensive FA, I just don't think TE is our biggest need or the position that should be chosen at this time. Also taking Fleener in the 1st is the same as saying we screwed up picking Graham 2 yrs. ago. I hate to admit this, God forgive me, but I'm actually warming up to the idea of Fleener in the 1st round as long as he makes OD expendable this year not next.
2. Schwartz, I'd prefer Bobby Massie in the 2nd round but he'll probably be gone by our late 2nd round pick and I think Schwartz is a good 2nd choice. Good pick.
3. Martin, I have reservations about Martin, not sure why just a feeling. I'd swap Martin and Childs and these picks would make more sense.
4a. Childs, I like Childs but think he goes in the 3rd, swap Martin and Childs picks and they make more sense.
4b. Wolfe, I really like the player, a poor mans JJ Watt, but don't think he'll be available this late probably goes in the 3rd.
5. Cole, again I really like the player and think he'd be excellent on the Texans roster but I think he goes earlier, probably in the late 3rd or early 4th.
6. Rodriguez, I don't know anything about the player but I think we can fill FB with an UDFA.
7. Sweezy, I really like the player but I see him as a 3-4 DE for us and the Martin pick frees up Mitchell to move to DE along with the Wolfe pick and now Sweezy, that's to many 3-4 DE's in one draft. I also think Sweezy goes earlier, probably in the 5th or 6th.

If our draft were to fall like this, I'd be very happy. I just think you have to many players going at least 1 round late and to many DE's.

The more I look at the 2012 draft the more I think we need to do everything possible to get as many 2nd round picks as we can, that's where the value in this draft is.
 
Can't believe i'm doing this................


YOU SAID

powda said:
I'd be on a rampage if we drafted a TE in the first round. Hate that pick.
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THEN I SAID

That would be short sighted for reasons I stated above.


THEN YOU SAID

powda said:
According to mussop we're shortsighted if we dont believe the Texans have to use a first round pick to replace him.
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I DID NOT SAY

It would be short sighted not to draft a TE in the first round.


The reasons I stated above were. It plays into Schaubs strengths, OD is a likely cap casualty next year, He has an injury history, we run a lot of 2 TE sets, Dreeson TE #2 led the team last year in TD receptions and the only backup currently on the roster has had one catch the last two years. Those are legitamate reasons why it should not be a reason to freak out if we were to draft a TE in the first round. Specifically Fleener who as I stated is as close as you can get to a can't miss prospect IMO.


Like it or not thats your prerogative. I don't have a problem with your opinion. If you don't agree with a TE in the first more power to you! I just think it's short sighted to get UPSET if we were to draft one in the first round.

How ever having said all that, I also said

The panicky WR responses that are rampant around here is why I did this mock. Just wanted to hit it from another angle than gotta have a WR and an OLB with the first two picks approach that you see here so much.

I think it's ridiculous that anyone thinks we are locked into any one position as our first round pick. It's flat out silly!!!!


NOW WE ARE HERE!


powda said:
If you dont want an opinion dont post a mock draft. I expressed my reasons why Tight end in the first would be a waste. I dont see the practicality in it when we have far more pressing needs. Those needs are at more important positions with less depth.

Your infatuated with a player. It happens to everyone every draft.
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I think the problem here is not that I am infatuated with a player but that you're infatuated with drafting a WR.


YOUR REASONING

powda said:
I dont doubt for a second we will draft a TE ,but to suggest its a priority need with all the other holes on this roster is short sighted. We have plenty of people whom can attack the defense horizontially on short crossing routes etc. What we dont have is anyone other then AJ who threatens deep (be it by speed or after the catch ability.)

I stand by my statement. If we draft a TE in the first i'll go ballistic.
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I'm sorry but explain this to me again???? Are you saying we shouldn't draft a TE in the first because we have to draft a WR thats a deep threat? I'm sorry but if that is your reasoning then there is no reason to continue this conversaition.
 
mussop said:
Can't believe i'm doing this................


YOU SAID



THEN I SAID

That would be short sighted for reasons I stated above.


THEN YOU SAID



I DID NOT SAY

It would be short sighted not to draft a TE in the first round.


The reasons I stated above were. It plays into Schaubs strengths, OD is a likely cap casualty next year, He has an injury history, we run a lot of 2 TE sets, Dreeson TE #2 led the team last year in TD receptions and the only backup currently on the roster has had one catch the last two years. Those are legitamate reasons why it should not be a reason to freak out if we were to draft a TE in the first round. Specifically Fleener who as I stated is as close as you can get to a can't miss prospect IMO.


Like it or not thats your prerogative. I don't have a problem with your opinion. If you don't agree with a TE in the first more power to you! I just think it's short sighted to get UPSET if we were to draft one in the first round.

How ever having said all that, I also said

The panicky WR responses that are rampant around here is why I did this mock. Just wanted to hit it from another angle than gotta have a WR and an OLB with the first two picks approach that you see here so much.

I think it's ridiculous that anyone thinks we are locked into any one position as our first round pick. It's flat out silly!!!!


NOW WE ARE HERE!





I think the problem here is not that I am infatuated with a player but that you're infatuated with drafting a WR.


YOUR REASONING



I'm sorry but explain this to me again???? Are you saying we shouldn't draft a TE in the first because we have to draft a WR thats a deep threat? I'm sorry but if that is your reasoning then there is no reason to continue this conversaition.
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I don't think we'll draft a TE in the first round, but your reasoning is solid. If we did draft a TE in the first round though I would not be upset because that would mean they expect him to be a playmaker from day 1.
 
Wolf6151 said:
1. Fleener, although I think Fleener will be an excellent player in the NFL and I agree with the notion of taking a player 1 yr. ahead of when they're needed so they can learn before they replace the expensive FA, I just don't think TE is our biggest need or the position that should be chosen at this time. Also taking Fleener in the 1st is the same as saying we screwed up picking Graham 2 yrs. ago. I hate to admit this, God forgive me, but I'm actually warming up to the idea of Fleener in the 1st round as long as he makes OD expendable this year not next.

Graham was a fourth round pick. It happens! The guy hardly seen the field in two years. One catch! TE may not be our biggest need but it is a need. You can't go into the draft saying position a is our biggest need so we have to spend our first round pick on it. You have to take the combination BPA that fills a need and generally you want your first two picks to start. You want your 3rd round pick to start year two and your expectations should lessen by round after that.

Again I'M NOT SAYING WE SHOULD DRAFT FLEENER!!!!! Just saying TE is a need and if he is the best player available then there is nothing wrong with it.

2. Schwartz, I'd prefer Bobby Massie in the 2nd round but he'll probably be gone by our late 2nd round pick and I think Schwartz is a good 2nd choice. Good pick.

I was about to start watching some Massie tape. Haven't had the chance yet. I love what I have seen from Schwartz. I think he could come in and start inside for us pretty quick.


3. Martin, I have reservations about Martin, not sure why just a feeling. I'd swap Martin and Childs and these picks would make more sense.
4a. Childs, I like Childs but think he goes in the 3rd, swap Martin and Childs picks and they make more sense.

I considered this too.

4b. Wolfe, I really like the player, a poor mans JJ Watt, but don't think he'll be available this late probably goes in the 3rd.

very possible!

5. Cole, again I really like the player and think he'd be excellent on the Texans roster but I think he goes earlier, probably in the late 3rd or early 4th.

I like Cole too but just don't see him going before the 5th round for some reason.

6. Rodriguez, I don't know anything about the player but I think we can fill FB with an UDFA.

Read up on him and try and watch some highlights or film of him if you have it. I think you will be surprised how much like Casey his game is. Just not the athlete!


7. Sweezy, I really like the player but I see him as a 3-4 DE for us and the Martin pick frees up Mitchell to move to DE along with the Wolfe pick and now Sweezy, that's to many 3-4 DE's in one draft. I also think Sweezy goes earlier, probably in the 5th or 6th.

Remember Smith is 30 and has a big contract. I would like to see us have a rotation of front 3 guys that would allow Watt and Smith to stay fresh for the Superbowl run. It has worked for the Giants.

If our draft were to fall like this, I'd be very happy. I just think you have to many players going at least 1 round late and to many DE's.



The more I look at the 2012 draft the more I think we need to do everything possible to get as many 2nd round picks as we can, that's where the value in this draft is.
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I agree with this 100 percent. As long as my top four favorites are gone.


David DeCastro OG Stanford Jr 6-5 316 1
Michael Floyd WR Notre Dame Sr 6-3 220 1
Coby Fleener TE Stanford Sr 6-6 247 1
Jerel Worthy DE/DT Michigan St Jr 6-2 308 1

I would consider staying for any of these guys but could be talked out it for the right price.

Dont'a Hightower ILB Alabama Jr 6-2 265 1
Kendall Wright WR Baylor Sr 5-10 196 1
Kevin Zeitler OG Wisconsin Sr 6-4 314 2
Shea McClellin OLB Boise State Sr 6-3 260 2
 
Rey said:
I don't think we'll draft a TE in the first round, but your reasoning is solid. If we did draft a TE in the first round though I would not be upset because that would mean they expect him to be a playmaker from day 1.
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And it fills a need. :bravo: I'm just so tired of hearing on ESPN, NFL network, every sports talk radio show and in most every conversation I hear about our draft that WR is no doubt going to be taken with our first round pick.

I'm not against drafting a WR with our first but its not the only need and it would be STUPID to reach for one if a better prospect were available.
 
Wolf6151 said:
1. Fleener, although I think Fleener will be an excellent player in the NFL and I agree with the notion of taking a player 1 yr. ahead of when they're needed so they can learn before they replace the expensive FA, I just don't think TE is our biggest need or the position that should be chosen at this time. Also taking Fleener in the 1st is the same as saying we screwed up picking Graham 2 yrs. ago. I hate to admit this, God forgive me, but I'm actually warming up to the idea of Fleener in the 1st round as long as he makes OD expendable this year not next.
Click to expand...

A big time playmaker at the TE position is just as valuable (maybe even more at times) than a WR.

Re: Grahm....

He is likely the third TE at best. If we don't draft a TE I think Casey would probably get the second TE reps.
 
Rey said:
A big time playmaker at the TE position is just as valuable (maybe even more at times) than a WR.

Re: Grahm....

He is likely the third TE at best. If we don't draft a TE I think Casey would probably get the second TE reps.
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Especially when your QB doesn't have a rocket arm and isn't a good deep ball thrower. Just because we don't draft a WR in the first round doesn't mean we won't get one thats just as good a prospect later. Anyone that has been paying attention to this draft class knows their is two top tier guys, one border line top tier guy, one super potential type and about 15 others that are bunched together so close that no one is sure where any of them will go.
 
Has anyone given any thought to Ladarius Green-TE? He's got great height, good speed, long arms and big hands. He might be a little light weight but adding a few pounds when your 6'06" shouldn't be hard to do. We could probably get him in the 3rd or early 4th round.
 
Wolf6151 said:
Has anyone given any thought to Ladarius Green-TE? He's got great height, good speed, long arms and big hands. He might be a little light weight but adding a few pounds when your 6'06" shouldn't be hard to do. We could probably get him in the 3rd or early 4th round.
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from all reports his not a good blocker.

for WR and TE i think one of the main priorities is if the lad can block.
We are a run first team and must always look to solidify this.

If the coaching staff believe he can be taught to block well then by all means go after him because his got a lot of up side
 
aussie_texan said:
from all reports his not a good blocker.

for WR and TE i think one of the main priorities is if the lad can block.
We are a run first team and must always look to solidify this.

If the coaching staff believe he can be taught to block well then by all means go after him because his got a lot of up side
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I read the same thing, he lacked the strength and size to be a good blocker. I'm not to worried about something like that though. Once these guys get on an NFL level strength and conditioning program he'll add strength and bulk for blocking. Also with a 6'06 frame the addition of a little extra weight shouldn't slow him any.
 
Wolf6151 said:
I read the same thing, he lacked the strength and size to be a good blocker. I'm not to worried about something like that though. Once these guys get on an NFL level strength and conditioning program he'll add strength and bulk for blocking. Also with a 6'06 frame the addition of a little extra weight shouldn't slow him any.
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i think the main this is if is a "willing" blocker. that can't be taught
 
A weapon on offense is valuable whether it be a WR or TE. The Patriots have shown the value of having multiple quality TEs on the roster. Their number 1 WR is Welker who is basically a really good slot receiver. OD is terrific, but let's be honest, he hasn't been the picture of health. The Denver/Houston offense has always relied on quality TE play. I think Fleener would be terrific and wouldn't be upset at all if we took him. I'd much rather grab him then reach for a WR if the top guys are gone. If you look at on the field production, Fleener is more of a sure thing at the point then Hill.
 
mussop said:
we run a lot of 2 TE sets
Click to expand...

We run even more 2 WR sets

mussop said:
Dreeson TE #2 led the team last year in TD receptions
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Joel Dreessen: 28 receptions 353 yards and a whopping 6 td's

I guess that kinda production just can be replaced without using a first round pick? But lets not overlook the production of our recievers...

Kevin Walter 39 receptions 474 yards 3 td's
Jacoby Jones 31 receptions 512 yards 2 td's

I was an appologist for a long time with Walter and always hoped for the best with Jones. But it is what it is and its time to upgrade. Peculiar how you chose to pimp Dreessen's stats without mentioning how bad the recievers played.

mussop said:
I think it's ridiculous that anyone thinks we are locked into any one position as our first round pick. It's flat out silly!!!!
Click to expand...

I never suggested any such thing. I'd be happy with us drafting multiple other positions in the first.

mussop said:
I think the problem here is not that I am infatuated with a player but that you're infatuated with drafting a WR.
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See above. If anything i'm infatuated with improving the team as fast as possible. Our draft picks are more valuable then ever now given our cap situation. Im infatuated with not squandering our resources on players we dont need. We have other more pressing needs. Hope your not to "short sighted" to see that.

mussop said:
YOUR REASONING

I'm sorry but explain this to me again????
Click to expand...

Try scrolling in this thread. I dont need to rehash this for you.

mussop said:
there is no reason to continue this conversaition.
Click to expand...

You dont handle criticizm very well do you? It's just a mock. You dont have to threaten it...just dont reply
 
powda said:
We run even more 2 WR sets
Click to expand...

Not in the red zone.

powda said:
Joel Dreessen: 28 receptions 353 yards and a whopping 6 td's
Click to expand...

And OD our starting TE 54 receptions 677 yards and a whopping 3 td's[/QUOTE] And on top of that will be 30 this year, has a huge contract and has missed 13 games in the last 3 years. Thats 3 games shy of an entire season. But hey getting a top flight TE that can be a huge weapon immediately and take over for OD either when he goes down with an injury this year or when we cut him next year is stupid when we can reach for a WR in the first round instead just because you hate J Jones for dropping a punt right!


powda said:
I guess that kinda production just can be replaced without using a first round pick? But lets not overlook the production of our recievers...
Click to expand...

Sure it can. For the last time I have never said different. This is you putting words in my mouth because either because you are too lazy to read the whole thread or you have a reading problem.

powda said:
Kevin Walter 39 receptions 474 yards 3 td's
Jacoby Jones 31 receptions 512 yards 2 td's
Click to expand...

Matt Schaub was on pace to throw for over 4000 yards with the same WR's you think HAVE TO BE REPLACED!

powda said:
I was an appologist for a long time with Walter and always hoped for the best with Jones. But it is what it is and its time to upgrade. Peculiar how you chose to pimp Dreessen's stats without mentioning how bad the recievers played.
Click to expand...

The only stat of Dreesons I brought up was that he led the team in TD receptions to show that the backup TE is an important piece in our red zone offense.

powda said:
I never suggested any such thing. I'd be happy with us drafting multiple other positions in the first.
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Are you sure? because your entire argument seems to be centered around the WR position. In fact I haven't seen you specifically mention a single other position period other than WR in this thread.

powda said:
See above. If anything i'm infatuated with improving the team as fast as possible. Our draft picks are more valuable then ever now given our cap situation. Im infatuated with not squandering our resources on players we dont need. We have other more pressing needs. Hope your not to "short sighted" to see that.
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No you are not! You hate Jones because of one play and have your heart set on drafting his replacement with our first round pick. Admit it! :kitten: YOu see it sucks when someone puts words in your mouth doesn't it?

As I have said repeatedly in this thread, we have many holes on this team and and several positions that have depleted depth. Several that are in worse shape than WR. I don't care what position we draft in the first round or any round for that matter. I just want good value for the pick. I did this mock to spur some new discussion other than drafting a WR in the first round. If you don't want to hear or talk about another position besides WR in the first round feel free to look at 99.9% of the other mocks out there.

There are 4 players that I would be ecstatic with with our first round pick. And it has nothing to do with what position they play. Fleener, Worthy, Decastro and Floyd. Thats four different positions. Thats 4 players that will IMO improve the team and be great value at 26. Other than those 4 I would prefer to trade down.

Your problem is you can't look past a players position and see what he is capable of bringing to the team. I call this Maddenidus! And you have a severe case of it my friend.


powda said:
You dont handle criticizm very well do you? It's just a mock. You dont have to threaten it...just dont reply
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I think it is you that has the problem with criticism. Obviously you took the "short sighted " comment to heart. Let me explain once AGAIN that I don't think you are short sighted because you don't want a TE in the first round. I think it would be short sighted to get UPSET if we did draft a TE when it is obviously a need. I'll debate with you how big a need TE is but whether or not its a need is not open for debate.
 
Last edited:
My top 4 players value wise for the Texans are

1. Hill
2. Gilmore
3. McClellin
4. Fleener

Earlier this yr I had Randle as my #1. But after doing a little more studying I would be more comfortable taking Randle in the 2nd rd. He's a big WR with good not great speed and a below avg vertical. (I put alot more stock in the vertical than the 40 if both are close. Because the vertical shows explosion and is very valuable in the red zone.)
 
steelbtexan said:
My top 4 players value wise for the Texans are

1. Hill
2. Gilmore
3. McClellin
4. Fleener

Earlier this yr I had Randle as my #1. But after doing a little more studying I would be more comfortable taking Randle in the 2nd rd. He's a big WR with good not great speed and a below avg vertical. (I put alot more stock in the vertical than the 40 if both are close. Because the vertical shows explosion and is very valuable in the red zone.)
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Just too much risk involved with Hill for me but won't hate the pick if we get him.

Gilmore I haven't really payed much attention to the CB's to be honest. Just don't see us taking one high and they are so hard (for me) to evaluate. I'll take your word for it if you think he is good enough.

McClellin I love this guy. He was formed from a Texans mold. Would love it. Thought about adding him to my top four. Still considering it.

Fleener Just ask Powda how I feel about Fleener. :peek:
 
mussop said:
Not in the red zone.
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Link?

Maybe if we had better recievers we wouldnt be forced to rely on a second tier tight end anywhere on the field.

mussop said:
And OD our starting TE 54 receptions 677 yards and a whopping 3 td's And on top of that will be 30 this year, has a huge contract and has missed 13 games in the last 3 years.Thats 3 games shy of an entire season.
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Andre Johnson has missed 12 games in the last 2 years, has a huge contract, and will 31 this year.

mussop said:
we can reach for a WR in the first round instead just because you hate J Jones for dropping a punt right!
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I did not suggest reaching for any position or mention Jacoby's facemask punt returning skills. If im interupreting you correctly now your arrguing:

A. we should draft a tightend in the first round
B. Jacoby Jones / Kevin Walter are good

Thats just fruity.

mussop said:
Matt Schaub was on pace to throw for over 4000 yards with the same WR's you think HAVE TO BE REPLACED!
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Schaub was on pace to throw for 3966 yard which would be his lowest career total with the Texans since 2008. Thats 400 yards less then 2010 and 800 yards less then 2009. So is Schaub on the decline or our recieving core? Its cheaper to replace a couple of recievers then a quarterback.

mussop said:
The only stat of Dreesons I brought up was that he led the team in TD receptions to show that the backup TE is an important piece in our red zone offense.
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So your arrgument here is that a back up tightend who's not on the field as much as a starting reciever scored more Td's then that reciever...hence...he's more important then the recievers and we should ignore their lack of playmaking?

mussop said:
Are you sure? because your entire argument seems to be centered around the WR position. In fact I haven't seen you specifically mention a single other position period other than WR in this thread.
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If were going to draft an offensive weapon in the first round it should be a reciever who actually threatens the safetys. If we draft a linebacker, cornerback, or linemen I see the merit of the selection assuming they are the best player available. Your focus has been an offensive weapon which I can agree with. I dont agree that it should be a tight end.

mussop said:
I just want good value for the pick.
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So do I which is why i'm opposed to your opinion. I dont think Fleener will be the best player on the board and you have made no mention of Casey whom I think will get some time on occasion at the second TE spot.

mussop said:
I call this Maddenidus! And you have a severe case of it my friend.
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So should I get antibiotics?

mussop said:
whether or not its a need is not open for debate.
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No debate here.
 
I love the idea of drafting Fleener. Let me post my thoughts here.

At 6'6" and almost 250 lbs, Fleener has natural TE size, so it is not like he is a WR/TE hybrid. You can split him out wide, or line him up as a traditional TE. While he is not a strong blocker, it is not a weakness. Just because he is known for his play in the pass game does not mean he is a liability in the run game.

Where Fleener makes his money is with the ball in his hands. He runs a 4.5 40- that is WR speed. He has good explosion numbers as well, better than many receiver prospects. At most importantly, he has soft hands. I do not remember seeing a lot of drops from Fleener. He is good at getting open, and good at catching the ball. And that is what you want to see.

There are still 3 weeks to go until draft day, but I think Fleener is my choice for the first round pick, unless a top talent falls.
 
rmartin65 said:
I love the idea of drafting Fleener. Let me post my thoughts here.

At 6'6" and almost 250 lbs, Fleener has natural TE size, so it is not like he is a WR/TE hybrid. You can split him out wide, or line him up as a traditional TE. While he is not a strong blocker, it is not a weakness. Just because he is known for his play in the pass game does not mean he is a liability in the run game.

Where Fleener makes his money is with the ball in his hands. He runs a 4.5 40- that is WR speed. He has good explosion numbers as well, better than many receiver prospects. At most importantly, he has soft hands. I do not remember seeing a lot of drops from Fleener. He is good at getting open, and good at catching the ball. And that is what you want to see.

There are still 3 weeks to go until draft day, but I think Fleener is my choice for the first round pick, unless a top talent falls.
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Wow...

You sold me...

I haven't watched him a lot, but I think I'm going to go look at some clips now..
 
rmartin65 said:
I love the idea of drafting Fleener. Let me post my thoughts here.

At 6'6" and almost 250 lbs, Fleener has natural TE size, so it is not like he is a WR/TE hybrid. You can split him out wide, or line him up as a traditional TE. While he is not a strong blocker, it is not a weakness. Just because he is known for his play in the pass game does not mean he is a liability in the run game.

Where Fleener makes his money is with the ball in his hands. He runs a 4.5 40- that is WR speed. He has good explosion numbers as well, better than many receiver prospects. At most importantly, he has soft hands. I do not remember seeing a lot of drops from Fleener. He is good at getting open, and good at catching the ball. And that is what you want to see.

There are still 3 weeks to go until draft day, but I think Fleener is my choice for the first round pick, unless a top talent falls.
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Would love to add Fleener. I view him as a weapon, plain and simple regardless of his position. His speed makes him a tough match up for LBs and his size makes him tough for DBs. He could absolutely spilt out wide as well. So many possibilities. There are other players I like as well, but at this point I favor Fleener over Hill or Randle.
 
powda said:
Why do I feel like someone's trying to sale me snake oil? If you want to shake it up to get a response to your mock thats cool. If you genuinely believe we need a tight end in the first your short sighted. I dont doubt for a second we will draft a TE ,but to suggest its a priority need with all the other holes on this roster is short sighted. We have plenty of people whom can attack the defense horizontially on short crossing routes etc. What we dont have is anyone other then AJ who threatens deep (be it by speed or after the catch ability.)

I stand by my statement. If we draft a TE in the first i'll go ballistic.



We sign players at all positions. They liked Vickers so much he's in Dallas now. Kubiak has never drafted a full back (don't chime in with Casey who was a hybrid do all in college).
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That's rather absolute without knowing the circumstances don't you think?

Here's a perfectly plausible scenario where TE is the best pick @ #26:
If the top 4-5 WRs are already taken, the top couple of OL and OLBs are also gone - most mocks I've seen indicate that there aren't more than 2 or 3 guys at each of those positions worthy of a 1st round pick. So that says that the remaining guys at our positions of need (WR, OLB, or OL) have 2nd round grades. So unless we can find a trade partner we take the BPA. And if that guy happens to be Fleener then why not take him?
 
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