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Old 03-25-2012   #61
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Default Re: Where i think we stand.

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Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
You and your 60 posts are completely full of it. Not one person on this site has pushed any agenda like that or something that extreme. Nice try at exxaggeration, but it's completely false rhetoric.
Really? Which player on this team are you happy with that is just average? Which position do the texans NOT need a probowler in?
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Old 03-25-2012   #62
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Default Re: Where i think we stand.

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Originally Posted by Carr Bombed View Post
Yep, but the problem is that even 2nd tier QBs (and Schaub is right at the top of the list of non elite QBs) still get paid a boat load of money.. they get paid more than "all pros" do at other positions and if Schaub stays healthy and has the type of year that he's more than capable of having (by no means is he some scrub either) it's going to take a lot of cash to bring him back.

And if Shaub was making 13 mil per he wouldn't be demeco'ed either.. QBs get overpaid all the time and if you have a live body at that position, teams are more than willing to eat it. It isn't even fair to compare Schaub to Demeco, the monetary value of the positions are on two complete different stratospheres. Demeco's cap hit alone is not what got him demeco'ed.. His cap hit plus the fact that he did not fit the system is what got him Demeco'ed. Schaub is still a highly productive player in the system that he plays in, where Demeco was not and that is the main reason why he no longer plays here.
I don't know how you define your tiers, but my second tier has guys like Rivers, Romo, Eli Manning, Big Ben and Stafford ahead of Schaub. I'd say Schaub is about the 10th to 13th best QB currently in the league. I haven't thought enough about it to say whether or not I would rank him above guys like Vick, Cutler and Newton.

I really don't think Schaub would be worth the risk if he was making a ton of money next year. He only has about 1.5 million guaranteed this year, so if he's not expected to recover completely, he might get cut after preseason. Luckily he doesn't have a 10 mill bonus coming up this offseason, or he might get the axe prematurely.
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Old 03-25-2012   #63
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Default Re: Where i think we stand.

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
I don't know how you define your tiers, but my second tier has guys like Rivers, Romo, Eli Manning, Big Ben and Stafford ahead of Schaub. I'd say Schaub is about the 10th to 13th best QB currently in the league. I haven't thought enough about it to say whether or not I would rank him above guys like Vick, Cutler and Newton.
Whatever your/my definition/ranking is pretty irrelevent to the main points that were made.. It doesn't change the fact that as a QB, Schaub will be paid like all pros who play other positions and as a producive starting QB in this system he would not be treated like a LBer who doesn't fit our system, regardless if Schaub was overpaid or not. That was the main point, not what pecking order Schaub fits in. If the man stays healthy and is able to put up the type of production he's capable of putting up, he's going to get a boat load of cash. QBs get paid
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Old 03-26-2012   #64
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Default Re: Where i think we stand.

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
I don't know how you define your tiers, but my second tier has guys like Rivers, Romo, Eli Manning, Big Ben and Stafford ahead of Schaub. I'd say Schaub is about the 10th to 13th best QB currently in the league. I haven't thought enough about it to say whether or not I would rank him above guys like Vick, Cutler and Newton.

I really don't think Schaub would be worth the risk if he was making a ton of money next year. He only has about 1.5 million guaranteed this year, so if he's not expected to recover completely, he might get cut after preseason. Luckily he doesn't have a 10 mill bonus coming up this offseason, or he might get the axe prematurely.
No way would this happen. The guys that have been let go are replaceable and their replacements are already on the team. We saw last season that Yates isn't ready to be Schaub's full time replacement.
Schaub is among my top 10 QB's.
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Old 03-26-2012   #65
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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Doesn't change the fact that they screwed up to get to where we are now, which is what we've been saying, they're scrambling to fix their screw ups.
I wouldn't call paying DeMeco what they paid him when they did a screw up... But in 2012 he just isn't worth it... I wouldn't call refusing to pay the #2 TE starting money a sign of a screw up, i'd call it not overpaying...

I still maintain that some of what people are seeing as bad cap management is a result of Arian Foster... I'm guessing as recently as this past September the FO still wasn't positive they'd have to pay arguably the best RB in the league...

I also think it's the way the cap management has been done that has some people more pissed... Instead of doing some of this year's trimming last year and the rest this year, they did it all in one two week span... It just seems more urgent, like they're in a panic, when they probably knew last offseason they'd need to make these cuts (esspecially if they had to pay Arian)... It could have well been a deal where they said "Okay, we need to win this year, and i like our chances with these guys right now, so let's keep them all, which buys us more time to prepare their replacements and then trim the money next year all in one big dump." It was esspecially easy that way, seeing there was no cap last year and the cuts weren't required...
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Old 03-26-2012   #66
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Default Re: Where i think we stand.

I don't think they were caught off guard. I think they are looking at the rest of the division and know they can win again this year even with the movements they are making. They can bring in some young players to fill in depth or become key contributors. They now have more room going into next season to re-sign and extend Cushing, Barwin, Brown, etc. These are the core pieces they need to lock up to be the AFC South team to beat over the next 10 years. We have enough talent to win this division for a long time.
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Old 03-26-2012   #67
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Default Re: Where i think we stand.

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Doesn't change the fact that they screwed up to get to where we are now, which is what we've been saying, they're scrambling to fix their screw ups.




My whole argument is predicated on our team being in "cap hell" If the posters saying we had $30M in cap space as of March 13 are correct, then I'm as happy as a clam.

We've got nothing to go on but rumors so far. So we've got a bunch of ifs..... if the Texan didn't offer Mario $14M because they didn't think it fiscally responsible, I'm good with that. If they didn't offer it because they don't have the money.. not so much.

If they thought they could do better than Eric Winston, Mike Brisiel, & Joel Dressen, I'm fine with that as well. If they couldn't afford to bring those players along.... not so much.

If they thought Demeco Ryans has seen his best days & thought it was time to move on, I'm fine with that as well. If they think Ryans is on his way to a full recovery, but couldn't afford to pay him what he's worth..... not so much.

However, everything that has happened since March 13 points to serious cap mismanagement. It says we have already over-paid a bunch of mediocre players, $120M dollars worth. We've got 4 second team All-Pros on this team, none are our QB or an outside pass rusher....

If you don't see a problem with that, I don't know what to tell you.


I've said my peace.
Can't it be both? It is fiscally responsible not to pay someone that kind of money that doesn't dominate games on a regular basis. It might be irresponsible to do it even if they do. As for having that kind of money available, the Texans have talented players that make good money. The teams that have a lot of cap room right now aren't typically the ones that were in the playoffs. I don't want to hear the Broncos mentioned, because it was the Chargers division to lose and once again Norv Turner did just that. They weren't a playoff caliber team. Everyone else, Buffalo, Washington, Tampa Bay, Seattle, Jacksonville were teams that were sitting home in January. I don't expect the Texans to be $20 million below in case they need to sign someone. You can't win and keep talented players happy, or even just keep them if you aren't spending the money.
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Old 03-26-2012   #68
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Default Re: Where i think we stand.

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Originally Posted by redwhiteblue View Post
Really? Which player on this team are you happy with that is just average? Which position do the texans NOT need a probowler in?
Your question isn't relevant to what you originally said which I called BS on. You went way overboard and stated that Texans fans wanted all these Pro Bowl LB's, LIneman, two shutdown CB's, and top players at every position practically and expected the team to be able to afford it. Not one person on this site has suggested that ever, and for someone who has hardly contributed to the site and hasn't been on here that long, I find it pretty ridiculous that they'd make such strong exaggerations like that regarding an entire fan base. You come off like someone who can't take it when management gets criticized for their moves they've made or lack thereof, so you choose to simply use hyperbole to get your point across.
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Old 03-26-2012   #69
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Default Re: Where i think we stand.

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Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
Your question isn't relevant to what you originally said which I called BS on. You went way overboard and stated that Texans fans wanted all these Pro Bowl LB's, LIneman, two shutdown CB's, and top players at every position practically and expected the team to be able to afford it. Not one person on this site has suggested that ever, and for someone who has hardly contributed to the site and hasn't been on here that long, I find it pretty ridiculous that they'd make such strong exaggerations like that regarding an entire fan base. You come off like someone who can't take it when management gets criticized for their moves they've made or lack thereof, so you choose to simply use hyperbole to get your point across.
Go ahead and name me all the teams that have a better #2 cornerback than Kareem Jackson. Go ahead and name me all the teams that have a better #3 receiver than Jacoby Jones. Go ahead and name me all the teams that have a better linebacker core than Barwin, Cushing, reed, and player X. Go ahead and name me all the teams that have an offensive line better than Brown, Smith, Myers, Caldwell and Butler? Now tell me how unrealistic Texans fans have been and how the sky is falling and the texans are back to mediocrity conversations are out of line. It's time to support the Texans and the good team they have put on the field. I know there have been many years of suffering, and I was a part of it, but the Texans are good now, enjoy it while it lasts.
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Old 03-26-2012   #70
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Default Re: Where i think we stand.

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Originally Posted by redwhiteblue View Post
Go ahead and name me all the teams that have a better #2 cornerback than Kareem Jackson. Go ahead and name me all the teams that have a better #3 receiver than Jacoby Jones. Go ahead and name me all the teams that have a better linebacker core than Barwin, Cushing, reed, and player X. Go ahead and name me all the teams that have an offensive line better than Brown, Smith, Myers, Caldwell and Butler? Now tell me how unrealistic Texans fans have been and how the sky is falling and the texans are back to mediocrity conversations are out of line. It's time to support the Texans and the good team they have put on the field. I know there have been many years of suffering, and I was a part of it, but the Texans are good now, enjoy it while it lasts.
Ya know, if you actually responded to posts that said the things you claim to be contradicting, then you might have a point. Instead you continue to make straw men attacks at arguments that don't exist, while trying to frame it as if this entire board thought the way you portray them to be. Seriously, learn how to debate and discuss rather than throwing out sweeping generalizations smothered in hyperbole.
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Old 03-26-2012   #71
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Default Re: Where i think we stand.

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Originally Posted by redwhiteblue View Post
Go ahead and name me all the teams that have a better #2 cornerback than Kareem Jackson. Go ahead and name me all the teams that have a better #3 receiver than Jacoby Jones. Go ahead and name me all the teams that have a better linebacker core than Barwin, Cushing, reed, and player X. Go ahead and name me all the teams that have an offensive line better than Brown, Smith, Myers, Caldwell and Butler? Now tell me how unrealistic Texans fans have been and how the sky is falling and the texans are back to mediocrity conversations are out of line. It's time to support the Texans and the good team they have put on the field. I know there have been many years of suffering, and I was a part of it, but the Texans are good now, enjoy it while it lasts.
You don't have a freaking clue what the Texans are. All you know is that they had one good season for the first time in 10 years or whatever. Funny how you "just know" that they're a great team, because of last season, but I've got news for you. Last season is over. There are teams that step up every year and surprise people and have a great season, and then end up going back to mediocrity or a bad team. The Chiefs did that just last season, the Dolphins did that after going 1-15, the Bengals did that a few seasons ago and then stunk it up after that. Did you just start watching the NFL or something, because you seem to suggest that we've hit the promised land because of one season? This team has only had one really good season under Kubiak and Rick Smith when they've been here for 6 seasons as a whole, so for you to insinuate like it's some given that they're a great team and that there might not be any reason for any concern just makes you sound like some homer who hasn't paid much attention to the "entire NFL" over the last 10 years. The fact is you don't know what the Texans will be until around week 6 of next season where they've been able to show what kind of team they'll be down the stretch. The success of NFL teams change every season.

The fact is the Texans have lost some very key players going into next season, and that is something that people will consider a loss going forward at least for the short term. WIll it stop the Texans from being a very good team?? It might. It might not as well, and maybe they continue on to playing very well. We'll see, but to play hyperbole just because you can't take it when the management gets criticized is weak.
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Old 03-26-2012   #72
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Default Re: Where i think we stand.

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Originally Posted by Carr Bombed View Post
Whatever your/my definition/ranking is pretty irrelevent to the main points that were made.. It doesn't change the fact that as a QB, Schaub will be paid like all pros who play other positions and as a producive starting QB in this system he would not be treated like a LBer who doesn't fit our system, regardless if Schaub was overpaid or not. That was the main point, not what pecking order Schaub fits in. If the man stays healthy and is able to put up the type of production he's capable of putting up, he's going to get a boat load of cash. QBs get paid
Well, depending on how you rank Schaub, it does matter as to what his value is. If Demeco was making 3 million this year, I doubt he would have been moved in 2012, but he was set to make 8 million, so they had to do something. He was being paid like a pro-bowl MLB in a 4-3, when he isn't nearly as valuable as an ILB in a 3-4. In any case, if Schaub was scheduled to make 13 million or more this year, I could see the Texans looking to trade him and start TJ instead. The risk is significant given his injury, and money saved this year is money that can be used next year to retain other guys. I know QBs are difficult to replace, but if Schaub looks bad this preseason, he may be cut or traded just to spare that 7 million. We will need those dollars next year.


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No way would this happen. The guys that have been let go are replaceable and their replacements are already on the team. We saw last season that Yates isn't ready to be Schaub's full time replacement.
Schaub is among my top 10 QB's.
I don't want to turn this into a "how good is Schaub" thread, but I wouldn't mind starting one in the NFL section on the subject of ranking QBs. Maybe I'll do that...
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Old 03-26-2012   #73
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Default Re: Where i think we stand.

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
Ya know, if you actually responded to posts that said the things you claim to be contradicting, then you might have a point. Instead you continue to make straw men attacks at arguments that don't exist, while trying to frame it as if this entire board thought the way you portray them to be. Seriously, learn how to debate and discuss rather than throwing out sweeping generalizations smothered in hyperbole.
I asked for examples for people to discredit what I said. So far no one has taken me up on my exercise. I actually think that is a good example of how to debate and discuss.
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Old 03-26-2012   #74
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Default Re: Where i think we stand.

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
Ya know, if you actually responded to posts that said the things you claim to be contradicting, then you might have a point. Instead you continue to make straw men attacks at arguments that don't exist, while trying to frame it as if this entire board thought the way you portray them to be. Seriously, learn how to debate and discuss rather than throwing out sweeping generalizations smothered in hyperbole.
And that's just it. This is the typical hyperbolic stuff that certain posters just throw out there when they can't frame an argument at what is specifically being discussed. Sure there have been some criticisms by people on certain moves, but if you look across the board a lot of people are on opposite sides of arguments than what they normally have been in the past as far as this off season goes. I've seen several posters that have been highly critical of Rick Smith for years now, and all of a sudden after one good season they're out to defend this guy big time as if the first 5 seasons got completely erased from history. It's hilarious to me, but whatever. But then there are also guys that have been very defensive for Smith and Kubiak for years, but have been very upset with this off season and very vocal about it, especially on the Demeco Ryans trade. People have had very different opinions across the board this off season other than some of the previous seasons from my observations. There hasn't been any consistency with any stance or any certain posters that normally feel a certain way.
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Old 03-26-2012   #75
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Default Re: Where i think we stand.

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I asked for examples for people to discredit what I said. So far no one has taken me up on my exercise. I actually think that is a good example of how to debate and discuss.
Let's see, this is the post that started your chain with Tex:

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All I have learned from this off season is that Texan fans are unrealistic. They want 4 pro bowl linebackers. They want 3 all pros on the defensive line. They want 2 shut down corners and 2 ball hawking safeties that never miss a tackle. They want not only an elite running back but his back up to be a 1000 yard rusher too. They want a top 5 qb, and lots of fast wide receivers. They want all 5 positions on the offensive line to all stay together for max salary. About the only thing texan fans don't want is tight ends. And they want all of these players to fit under the salary cap for the next 6 years.
This is just silly. If someone actually said something like this in a post, then by all means retort. But chances are you read a few posts here and there by people who were upset that X player is gone, and have created a combination of unrealistic expectations. These "fans" that you speak of don't exist, because they are simply the amalgamation of a few posts you have decided reflect the board/fanbase/city as a whole. You're way off track here as there are plenty of people on this very board who have supported all or most of the free agency moves made by the Texans so far. That's where you are completely wrong on this. Yet you ask Tex to argue this fictitious strawman's argument against you so you can validate your claim, which isn't going to happen.
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Old 03-26-2012   #76
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I asked for examples for people to discredit what I said. So far no one has taken me up on my exercise. I actually think that is a good example of how to debate and discuss.
"Go ahead and this. Go ahead and that".

Frankly I didn't get more than three or four lines into that post before I moved on. There is usually enough reasonable content on here to read. I consider it a waste of time reading, much less responding to, what appears to be a belligerent post/poster.
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Old 03-26-2012   #77
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Default Re: Where i think we stand.

I want 4 pro bowl linebackers. I want 3 all pros on the defensive line. I want 2 shut down corners and 2 ball hawking safeties that never miss a tackle. I want not only an elite running back but his back up to be a 1000 yard rusher too. I want a top 5 qb, and lots of fast wide receivers. I want all 5 positions on the offensive line to all stay together for max salary. About the only thing texan_Bill doesn't want is tight ends. And I want all of these players to fit under the salary cap for the next 6 years.

All of that and add Hoooushmazili. Championship!



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Old 03-26-2012   #78
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Never mind.
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Old 03-26-2012   #79
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Default Re: Where i think we stand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Runner View Post
Never mind.
Good post. To add to that, I'll repeat what I said in another post.

If the Texans are $20-$30 million under the cap & they are making these moves because they think it is for the better of the team..... I like it, I'm on board & I'll be serving the Koolaide.


If the Texans are $4-$6 million under the cap after the moves they have made & those moves were to get the team $4-$6M under the cap....



We need a new general-manager.
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Old 03-26-2012   #80
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Default Re: Where i think we stand.

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
You seem to be confusing the All-Pro team for the All-Homer team.

& I'm not talking about Pro-Bowls either.

I think we've got a solid team, not a $120M dollar team.

If you count second teamers, we've got 4 All-Pros. Duane Brown, Brian Cushing, Arian Foster, & Jonathan Joseph. All second team.
Is'nt 4 kinda of, a lot. How many all pro's are there? Around 50. There are 32 teams so each team should have one and 3/4s. It seems we have ours plus some other teams plus another half. That's not even counting some of our other players who have a great chance to be all pro's this year or have been in the past. Schaub, Daniels, Watt, Barwin, Myers, AJ. We have more talent than your giving us credit for.
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