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Old 03-27-2012   #81
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
See, I would argue that the disconnect lies in he fact that he was a 1st round pick and we were all told by Smithiak that Kareem Jackson was the most NFL ready corner available. Well, we've seen the other corners taken in that draft perform better, even if they weren't world beaters themselves. One of them has even been to a Pro Bowl. THAT is the disconnect, IMO.
Kyle Wilson most definitely has not played better than Kareem. & while McCourty's did play better his rookie season, he definitely did not his sophomore year.

Even Joe Haden has not looked like the pro-bowler Kj is expected to look like. From the 2011 draft, those first round corners have struggled as well, with the exception of Jimmy Smith. Yes, that includes Peterson & Amukamara...

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Not sure why people automatically go to the pro bowler argument as if that's the next step up...

The next step up for Kareem is not pro bowler...
Who said it was?
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Old 03-27-2012   #82
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Who said it was?

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He's not playing like a Pro Bowler right now. He is playing like a 2nd year corner. To expect the former, is where the disconnect is.
.

Who has said that they expect him to be playing like a probowler right now?

When you make statements like that it leads me to believe that you believe people expect him to be playing at a pro bowl level. Please show a post anywhere, even in the old kj threads that say he should be playing at a pro bowl level.
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Old 03-27-2012   #83
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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Who has said that they expect him to be playing like a probowler right now?

When you make statements like that it leads me to believe that you believe people expect him to be playing at a pro bowl level. Please show a post anywhere, even in the old kj threads that say he should be playing at a pro bowl level.
How does that equate to the next step being the pro-bowl?
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Old 03-27-2012   #84
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How does that equate to the next step being the pro-bowl?
That's a question I think you should answer as you made that leap. You brought up the expectations of people thinking he should be a pro bowler when no one has said that. You skipped up to pro bowler.

Why did you skip the possible levels in between?
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Old 03-28-2012   #85
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

KJ is still young and could imrpove to a pro bowler, but competition is key IMO, BUT I disagree with our front office about always drafting guys to be the competition.....we need vets to bring the added heat to the team, but sadly we cannot afford that. He will remain an average number 2 and hopefully Brandon Harris can add some pressure to KJ and get some playing time
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Old 03-29-2012   #86
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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I thought I was pretty clear...

My point is that we can do better at CB2 than to have one that requires splitting time with a "journeyman type"....

And I'm not even saying KJ can't be that guy. What I'm saying is that he needs to continue to improve if he is going to be that guy.
A journeyman type is:
- a guy that can start with a team that play cover 2.
(and there are quite a few teams in the NFL that play cover 2 heavily last year like the Pats, the Bears, the Colts, etc.)
- a guy that can be a stop-gap measure that is valuable to have while building a team, giving the young guy(s) time to develop (see Salaam/Brown for example.)

The fact that Allen was able to sign a 2-yr, 8.2 M deal with the Bengals while Tracy Porter (39 starts in 4 yrs) can only get a one-yr deal for 4M shows that Allen is a top-flight journeyman (even if the Bengals are a little desperate due to uncertain status of Leon Hall.)

There's nothing wrong for the Texans to use a veteran like that and it was not a knock against a young player like Jackson.

It's kind of odd that you want to have it both ways.
On the one hand, you had your money on Allen as the starter before last season started.
On the other hand, you keep on knocking on Jackson for having to split some time with Allen.
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Old 03-29-2012   #87
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
A journeyman type is:
- a guy that can start with a team that play cover 2.
(and there are quite a few teams in the NFL that play cover 2 heavily last year like the Pats, the Bears, the Colts, etc.)
- a guy that can be a stop-gap measure that is valuable to have while building a team, giving the young guy(s) time to develop (see Salaam/Brown for example.)

The fact that Allen was able to sign a 2-yr, 8.2 M deal with the Bengals while Tracy Porter (39 starts in 4 yrs) can only get a one-yr deal for 4M shows that Allen is a top-flight journeyman (even if the Bengals are a little desperate due to uncertain status of Leon Hall.)

There's nothing wrong for the Texans to use a veteran like that and it was not a knock against a young player like Jackson.

It's kind of odd that you want to have it both ways.
On the one hand, you had your money on Allen as the starter before last season started.
On the other hand, you keep on knocking on Jackson for having to split some time with Allen.
But they're clearly sticking with Kareem, over Allen, for three reasons:

1. KJ is younger than Allen (so we get more miles out of the vehicle)

2. KJ was a first round pick and we all know that every team is going to hold onto that 1st round pick for at least a solid 3 years before turning it loose near the end of the rookie contract.

3. Cheaper than Allen, which was made obvious by the nice payday Allen got with the Bengals.

In other words, we're keeping KJ and we let Allen go for three reasons that have less to do with actual on-the-field performance as it relates to which guy gets the nod and which guy hits the bricks.

Allen got a nice payday with the Bengals because he proved he was a dependable CB2, and KJ remained HERE because of the three reasons I listed--All of which is NOT a football decision, but rather a save-face and a save-money factor.

We're kidding ourselves if we think a guy stays here AND even stays the starter because he's better than the guy behind him on the depth chart. Look no further than Travis Johnson and Amobi Okoye for definitive examples on this theory. Both guys were garbage, showed a flash every 5 or 6 games, and stayed the defacto starters for three years here. Case closed.

Just because KJ remains and Allen left, it's not as if this is Survivor and Allen got voted off the island....he voluntarily left the island because another team saw a good CB and they had the coin to pay him as such. And to quite honest, what would be the point of him staying to split time and act as KJ's wet nurse anyways? On to better things, such as being the full-time CB like he wants to be. Makes money sense, and makes good career sense too.
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Old 03-29-2012   #88
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

Putting all things aside here, the fact that Allen was splitting time with KJ tells us all we needs to know.

They were not comfortable letting KJ be the full-time guy. It was a smart move. A brilliant move. Instead of a team knowing they could just line up and dog KJ all game long, we were subbing in Allen and forcing teams to spread their strategy around instead of blazing a trail down KJ Boulevard all game long.

That this is not THE main talking point is puzzling. We're talking about an NFL 2nd year player splitting snaps with a veteran. What the hell is the point of that? The point was to shelter KJ, limit the strategy of opposing o-coordinators, and hopefully grow KJ along the way. I, for one, hope the strategy pays off on that last part of the equation.

It's like needing a coach for How To Date A Girl. How embarrassing would it be if you had to bring your Date Coach along with you on your date you have with a young lady? KJ had a tag-along last year to make sure things went OK for him. Now, in a sense that's a bit sad...in another sense it's wise. However, the fact that it had to be done in the first place is telling.

Nick Saban was right when he didn't think KJ should have come out for the draft early. Dude knew then what we know now.
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Old 03-29-2012   #89
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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Putting all things aside here, the fact that Allen was splitting time with KJ tells us all we needs to know.

They were not comfortable letting KJ be the full-time guy. It was a smart move. A brilliant move. Instead of a team knowing they could just line up and dog KJ all game long, we were subbing in Allen and forcing teams to spread their strategy around instead of blazing a trail down KJ Boulevard all game long.

That this is not THE main talking point is puzzling. We're talking about an NFL 2nd year player splitting snaps with a veteran. What the hell is the point of that? The point was to shelter KJ, limit the strategy of opposing o-coordinators, and hopefully grow KJ along the way. I, for one, hope the strategy pays off on that last part of the equation.

It's like needing a coach for How To Date A Girl. How embarrassing would it be if you had to bring your Date Coach along with you on your date you have with a young lady? KJ had a tag-along last year to make sure things went OK for him. Now, in a sense that's a bit sad...in another sense it's wise. However, the fact that it had to be done in the first place is telling.

Nick Saban was right when he didn't think KJ should have come out for the draft early. Dude knew then what we know now.


The point of him splitting time with Allen was to give the guy what he should've gotten in his rookie year; time to get acclimated to the NFL & see how the position is played on this level. More importantly for him, time to reset himself & gain his confidence back by limiting the opportunities teams had to pick on him. Guys who make it on this level typically aren't used to having to do that; being forced to sit & watch that is. Yet & still its something that 90% of young incoming players are forced to do to some degree in the NFL and gives them a different perspective on things. Only the grade A studs (WATT!!!) come right in & dominate & KJ wasn't that coming into the draft & it certainly hasn't bourn itself out over the last couple of years.
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Old 03-29-2012   #90
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
A journeyman type is:
- a guy that can start with a team that play cover 2.
(and there are quite a few teams in the NFL that play cover 2 heavily last year like the Pats, the Bears, the Colts, etc.)
- a guy that can be a stop-gap measure that is valuable to have while building a team, giving the young guy(s) time to develop (see Salaam/Brown for example.)

The fact that Allen was able to sign a 2-yr, 8.2 M deal with the Bengals while Tracy Porter (39 starts in 4 yrs) can only get a one-yr deal for 4M shows that Allen is a top-flight journeyman (even if the Bengals are a little desperate due to uncertain status of Leon Hall.)

There's nothing wrong for the Texans to use a veteran like that and it was not a knock against a young player like Jackson.

It's kind of odd that you want to have it both ways.
On the one hand, you had your money on Allen as the starter before last season started.
On the other hand, you keep on knocking on Jackson for having to split some time with Allen.
1) You're making up your own definition of what a journeyman is. Never heard the cover 2 requirement but whatev...

2) I never "had my money" on Allen to start. What I've been pretty consistent in saying is that both had their faults. And both had their positives. I liked Kareems short passing game defense better and I liked Allen's long ball defense better because I felt he had the superior ball skills.

3) You are the one who was tearing down Allen (and pretty much anoyone else) in defense of Kareem. This is the first positive thing you've said about Allen calling him a "top flight journeyman" pretty much because you had to.

Hard to talk about how bad Allen is in comparison when he's taking a bunch of snaps from Kareem isn't it?
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Old 03-29-2012   #91
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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The point of him splitting time with Allen was to give the guy what he should've gotten in his rookie year; time to get acclimated to the NFL & see how the position is played on this level.
I disagree with that. I believe they were splitting time because Allen provided valuable play and did some things that Kareem didn't.

And the reason Allen wasn't starting was because of his deficiencies. Both provided value and that was the reason both were playing...IMO.
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Old 03-29-2012   #92
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
Putting all things aside here, the fact that Allen was splitting time with KJ tells us all we needs to know.

They were not comfortable letting KJ be the full-time guy. It was a smart move. A brilliant move. Instead of a team knowing they could just line up and dog KJ all game long, we were subbing in Allen and forcing teams to spread their strategy around instead of blazing a trail down KJ Boulevard all game long.

That this is not THE main talking point is puzzling. We're talking about an NFL 2nd year player splitting snaps with a veteran. What the hell is the point of that? The point was to shelter KJ, limit the strategy of opposing o-coordinators, and hopefully grow KJ along the way. I, for one, hope the strategy pays off on that last part of the equation.

It's like needing a coach for How To Date A Girl. How embarrassing would it be if you had to bring your Date Coach along with you on your date you have with a young lady? KJ had a tag-along last year to make sure things went OK for him. Now, in a sense that's a bit sad...in another sense it's wise. However, the fact that it had to be done in the first place is telling.

Nick Saban was right when he didn't think KJ should have come out for the draft early. Dude knew then what we know now.
You're still talking the same way as Rey, which is trying to have it both ways.
If we want to talk about sad, we can talk about McCourty.

The Pats was baby-sitting McDourty in cover 2 for more than half a season in his rookie year. Later on in the year, when they started having him playing more on an island, he bombed.
McCourty continued to bomb in his second season as he as asked to play more on an island while KJ showed good improvement.

It's not that easy playing CB.
The fact that the Pats didn't have the luxury of another veteran CB hurt them the last two years when they ranked near the bottom in pass defense.

Another CB that was drafted in the first round was Patrick Robinson, with the Saints ranked 30th in pass defense (one notch better than the Pats).
He's still a back-up. He only started when the Saints begin the game in nickel or when Porter was injured (or recovering),

Kyle Wilson, in the meantime, continued to struggled as a nickel back with the Jets.

Jackson was the correct choice!
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Old 03-29-2012   #93
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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1) You're making up your own definition of what a journeyman is. Never heard the cover 2 requirement but whatev...

2) I never "had my money" on Allen to start. What I've been pretty consistent in saying is that both had their faults. And both had their positives. I liked Kareems short passing game defense better and I liked Allen's long ball defense better because I felt he had the superior ball skills.

3) You are the one who was tearing down Allen (and pretty much anoyone else) in defense of Kareem. This is the first positive thing you've said about Allen calling him a "top flight journeyman" pretty much because you had to.

Hard to talk about how bad Allen is in comparison when he's taking a bunch of snaps from Kareem isn't it?
Wrong!

I think you were influenced by the Jason Allen's bad plays thread.

Every CB had their bad plays.
Everybody already knows about his good plays.
In order to evaluate a player, one has to take their whole body of work into consideration.

Don't forget that I was among those who were very concerned that the Texans didn't have a good veteran CB to start the 2010 season.

We questioned the Texans letting go of Reeves and Molden without adding another vet to the roster.
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Old 03-29-2012   #94
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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1) You're making up your own definition of what a journeyman is. Never heard the cover 2 requirement but whatev...
I read a couple of books that talks about this; one of them was Inside the Helmet.
It talks bout a veteran CB (I forgot his name) who had lost a little speed toward the end of his career but was still very effective when he played with a cover two teams (one of several teams that he had played for).
It's not a requirement; it's one of the scenarios.
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Old 03-29-2012   #95
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

Also, Rey, you might want to remember that throughout all the discussions, I always emphasized that Allen as "is not the future".

That clearly means he can be a short-term/stop-gap type of guy.

I have always been very consistent with that.
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Old 03-29-2012   #96
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

Weve got this dude on the cheap for 2 more years with an option for a 3rd. He has the tools and pedigree to make it in this league. Why not give him at LEAST his 3 years before we bust him out of the league?

After all he DOUBLED his interceptions this year. ;P
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Old 03-29-2012   #97
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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Wrong!

I think you were influenced by the Jason Allen's bad plays thread.

Every CB had their bad plays.
Everybody already knows about his good plays.
In order to evaluate a player, one has to take their whole body of work into consideration.

Don't forget that I was among those who were very concerned that the Texans didn't have a good veteran CB to start the 2010 season.

We questioned the Texans letting go of Reeves and Molden without adding another vet to the roster.
WOW WOW WOW you always talked down allen and i have never seen you give 1 good comment about him until this thread, and me and u had it out many many times over this. I hope to god ur boy KJ is ready to be an every down CB if not 2010 here we come.
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Old 03-29-2012   #98
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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WOW WOW WOW you always talked down allen and i have never seen you give 1 good comment about him until this thread, and me and u had it out many many times over this. I hope to god ur boy KJ is ready to be an every down CB if not 2010 here we come.
You must have missed a lot of my posts then.
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Old 03-29-2012   #99
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
You must have missed a lot of my posts then.
oh no i read them all. regardless he is no longer with us, i just hope ur boy has grown up a little, cause it is a different ball game playing full time and not splitting time see 2010 season. Yes he was a rookie but i saw the same CB in 2011 that was there in 2010, just not on the field as much to get exposed as badly !
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Old 03-29-2012   #100
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
Putting all things aside here, the fact that Allen was splitting time with KJ tells us all we needs to know.
Tells us they realized their mistake of letting Kj take the starter job from day one. Most rookie CBs don't start from day one, but they are eased into the game. Usually through the nickel position.

Both Quin & McCain had excellent rookie seasons, neither were asked to start right off the bat & the rest of the defense was playing very aggressively, very fast, & making things happen. A big part of that season was Brian Cushing & Bernard Pollard making things happen at the LOS.

In Kj's rookie season, Cushing got pregnant. Pollard was neutered, as was our pass rush; we lost half our outside rotation before the end of the first game, & our starting free safety gimped up on us.

We crossed our fingers & hoped to God that Kj was going to be able to step up & play like a big boy, at the same time we chastised the F.O. for not bringing in a Veteran to mentor him. We got Jason Allen part way through the season, & Kj was able to play the rookie role.... why as the starter, I don't know. But it doesn't really matter (to me) either way, splitting time with a veteran (who embraced the role of mentor) was the right thing to do.

If you go back & read my posts concerning Jackson vs Allen, you'll see the only "reason" I picked Jackson over Allen was that Jackson was younger & you'd expect him to get better, where Allen was an old dog (who don't normally get better).

But Jason Allen was playing better at the end of the year, imo, than he was at the beginning of the year. Again, imo, it would have been wrong to take him off the field or reduce his time. Not because Kj was the better of the two, but because Allen earned his time.

I don't think it was a knock on Kj that Allen played so much, no more than McCourty being moved to safety, or Wilson being stuck at nickel.
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