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Old 03-23-2012   #41
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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Do you know that can be said about a lot of NFL prospects?

A lot of these guys played different positions at one point or another and only played the position they're being drafted at in college...Quite a few guys don't even have as much experience as kareem had... Alot of them come out early. A lot of them have not been locked into one position for their entire football playing life.
Of course, due to developing bodies, guys grow in and right out of positions which also expand farther at every level. I know that some folks will never be satisfied because of where he was drafted but it does, almost always, take 3 years to really be able to judge a player specifically. So year 1 he was tossed straight into an inferno and got torched, funny that. Year 2 Wade pulled him out of the fire, got a butter knife and scraped off some of burned edges and he was able to progress. Year 3......uh, anybody got some butter? This analogy went better in my head...

I'm not saying we're waiting on Picasso's next great work of art. I'm saying as long as he's progressing, what's the problem?

The "falling down" jokes are SOOOOOOOO 2010.....
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Old 03-23-2012   #42
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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In Wade, we trust??

Maybe Wade knows something we don't? Maybe Wade thinks more of KJ than we all do... I'll bite..............





For the time being.
its that time of year where you pump everyone up. Every year they are glossing all over guys they eventually cut or don't perform as well as their advertising. Its a family thang
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Old 03-23-2012   #43
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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Originally Posted by TimeKiller View Post
Of course, due to developing bodies, guys grow in and right out of positions which also expand farther at every level. I know that some folks will never be satisfied because of where he was drafted but it does, almost always, take 3 years to really be able to judge a player specifically. So year 1 he was tossed straight into an inferno and got torched, funny that. Year 2 Wade pulled him out of the fire, got a butter knife and scraped off some of burned edges and he was able to progress. Year 3......uh, anybody got some butter? This analogy went better in my head...

I'm not saying we're waiting on Picasso's next great work of art. I'm saying as long as he's progressing, what's the problem?

The "falling down" jokes are SOOOOOOOO 2010.....
Seems like when you respond to one aspect of something you get linked with everything else...

I've never made jokes abou tKJ falling down, and if you look at my posts in this thread or regarding KJ in general I've never said he sucks.

I was responding to 76's post about KJ not being as experienced as other NFL corners because he had only played the position since prep school...Nothing more, nothing less.
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Old 03-23-2012   #44
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
How many guys who came out early with not much experience at CB have been successful early in their NFL career?

Are you saying that KJ has not been successful, or are you saying he is the lone exception that has been successful despite extraordinary circumstances?
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Old 03-23-2012   #45
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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Are you saying that KJ has not been successful, or are you saying he is the lone exception that has been successful despite extraordinary circumstances?
...It's not difficult. He's stating that most CBs are not successful their rookie year, especially those with the playing time that KJ got, and KJ is no exception. We should not have put that high of an expectation on him nor should we criticize too harshly because it is to be expected. CB requires a huge learning curve that experience and good coaching can improve.
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Old 03-23-2012   #46
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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...It's not difficult. He's stating that most CBs are not successful their rookie year, especially those with the playing time that KJ got, and KJ is no exception. We should not have put that high of an expectation on him nor should we criticize too harshly because it is to be expected. CB requires a huge learning curve that experience and good coaching can improve.
I think I'll let 76 speak for himself, thank you.

He's a big boy.
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Old 03-24-2012   #47
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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Are you saying that KJ has not been successful, or are you saying he is the lone exception that has been successful despite extraordinary circumstances?
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...It's not difficult. He's stating that most CBs are not successful their rookie year, especially those with the playing time that KJ got, and KJ is no exception. We should not have put that high of an expectation on him nor should we criticize too harshly because it is to be expected. CB requires a huge learning curve that experience and good coaching can improve.
I didn't say anything really. I was only asking youu (Rey) a question.

Which guy(s) that you know of who had about the same experience at CB as Jackson coming out and had a fantastic first year?

You didn't answer my question, instead you ask me a question.
Foo82 (and a few others through all of last year) had followed some of my studies and agreed about the dead horse thing.

I had already typed out an answer to your question, but since I've asked you a question first, I think it's only fair for you to anwer my question before I answer yours.
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Old 03-24-2012   #48
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I didn't say anything really. I was only asking youu (Rey) a question.

Which guy(s) that you know of who had about the same experience at CB as Jackson coming out and had a fantastic first year?

You didn't answer my question, instead you ask me a question.
Foo82 (and a few others through all of last year) had followed some of my studies and agreed about the dead horse thing.

I had already typed out an answer to your question, but since I've asked you a question first, I think it's only fair for you to anwer my question before I answer yours.
Fair enough. But what is your definition of "early in their career"?

Jason seahorn didn't even play much cb until he got to the NFL. He was a wr/return man in juco then he played safety at USC.

He didn't play a whole lot his first two years in the league, but by his third year he was a legit starting corner. I'd consider that early in his career.

But the reason I asked you that question is because your stance has been that as a rookie Kareem wasn't bad. Now it seems as if you're defending his bad play by saying he hadn't had much experience.

And you want me to answer a question that would require me to know the history of ever cb to ever play in the NFL.

My while point is that the excuses you are making don't matter. Everyone has a story. I'd guess most NFL players have played a bunch of different positions and some not as long as kj.

I'm pretty sure there have been mire players than Jason seahorn to play all over the place and then come into the NFL and be successful early in their career.

And before you or anyone else tries to give me words or thoughts that I didn't type, I realize that kj is still a youngster and I even said earlier in the thread that I was willing to look at last year as his rookie season since his first year the defense was ran by what seemingly amounted to a bunch of clowns.

I just disagree with the excuses you're putting out there for poor play. And I guess that you are admitting that he has played poorly in the past because you wouldn't need to give excuses if his play was great, right?
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Old 03-24-2012   #49
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

Never mind about Seahorn (whom I admit that I've never heard of - I don't know if anybody on this board can come up with that example either).

There are plenty of CBs who came out recently and were drafted higher than Jackson and never amounted to much. The duos from the Chargers for example.
One is better than the other, both were cover 2 corner.

But to answer your question, I would have to ask you to go back to the archive and read what I had to say when I started the thread analyzing KJ's play in college.

I said that KJ was an all-around solid CB.
He was a near-shutdown cover corner against "would-be or wanna-be" 2nd receiver (at most) in the NFL.
I questioned his deep speed (more like I recognized that it will not be his forte.)
I even gave that part to McCourty pre-draft (and that was why I had them neck-to-neck only because McCourty has a little better speed.)
I wasn't even sure if I would give either one of them first round grade.
I said I would feel more comfortable with both of them early in the second round.

Jackson's strength in coverage was to stay in phase with the receiver and thus discouraged a throw his way. Either the QB had to take a shot from the get-go or he woudn't have a chance to come back that-a-way.

He was (and is) a great tackler who can avoid blocks to get to the ball carrier better than a majority of CBs that were in the NFL before him.
He's a great forced man on the edge, unlike Dunta or Allen.


He can be useful in blitzes, but so far his NFL coaches hadn't asked him to do that yet (for various reasons too lengthy to get into.)

At Bama, Saban wanted him to stay mostly on the right side of the defense and keep up with the receiver if he reads pass. If he reads run, he was asked to come off his man and support. He did both exceptionally well. He was mostly on an island.

This allowed the safety to give help to the other side or to come down to play the run.
And when the opponent QBs "had to" go to the other side way too often against more coverage, there were more INT opportunities on the left side.
There wasn't a single play where the QB can come back to Jackson's side to find an open receiver.
This would result in a sack or a throw away if the QB tries to.

That was in college.

In his rookie year, the Texans moved him to play more on the left side of the D.
They wanted him to work on the shuffle, something he never did in college (at least in his last season at Bama - I had reviewed all the games except for games against 2nd tier schools.)
The Texans played him in some zone and cover 3 and he did those tasks as well as one can expect (prompting Wade and Vance Joseph to say that he was a good zone corner - and these were the things he didn't do at Bama).

He had a full plate to learn as a rookie (unlike McCourty who was simply asked to play cover 2 corner for the most part by the Pats - whether man or zone under; or Patrick Peterson who was asked to simply play man with the Cards.)

For me, Jackson had a successful rookie season.
Not only was he thrown into the fire, he was asked to do a whole lot more than either McCourty or Peterson.

And need I repeat that the guys that failed were the safeties and the DC who were let go?

Need I rehash that even a highly-touted CB like Peterson was burned left and right doing (basically) the only thing that he did best in college?

Jason Allen was never the future; KJ is the future and the now.

Who was banking on Allen?
Definitely not me!
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Old 03-24-2012   #50
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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Never mind about Seahorn (whom I admit that I've never heard of - I don't know if anybody on this board can come up with that example either).

There are plenty of CBs who came out recently and were drafted higher than Jackson and never amounted to much. The duos from the Chargers for example.
One is better than the other, both were cover 2 corner.

But to answer your question, I would have to ask you to go back to the archive and read what I had to say when I started the thread analyzing KJ's play in college.

I said that KJ was an all-around solid CB.
He was a near-shutdown cover corner against "would-be or wanna-be" 2nd receiver (at most) in the NFL.
I questioned his deep speed (more like I recognized that it will not be his forte.)
I even gave that part to McCourty pre-draft (and that was why I had them neck-to-neck only because McCourty has a little better speed.)
I wasn't even sure if I would give either one of them first round grade.
I said I would feel more comfortable with both of them early in the second round.

Jackson's strength in coverage was to stay in phase with the receiver and thus discouraged a throw his way. Either the QB had to take a shot from the get-go or he woudn't have a chance to come back that-a-way.

He was (and is) a great tackler who can avoid blocks to get to the ball carrier better than a majority of CBs that were in the NFL before him.
He's a great forced man on the edge, unlike Dunta or Allen.


He can be useful in blitzes, but so far his NFL coaches hadn't asked him to do that yet (for various reasons too lengthy to get into.)

At Bama, Saban wanted him to stay mostly on the right side of the defense and keep up with the receiver if he reads pass. If he reads run, he was asked to come off his man and support. He did both exceptionally well. He was mostly on an island.

This allowed the safety to give help to the other side or to come down to play the run.
And when the opponent QBs "had to" go to the other side way too often against more coverage, there were more INT opportunities on the left side.
There wasn't a single play where the QB can come back to Jackson's side to find an open receiver.
This would result in a sack or a throw away if the QB tries to.

That was in college.

In his rookie year, the Texans moved him to play more on the left side of the D.
They wanted him to work on the shuffle, something he never did in college (at least in his last season at Bama - I had reviewed all the games except for games against 2nd tier schools.)
The Texans played him in some zone and cover 3 and he did those tasks as well as one can expect (prompting Wade and Vance Joseph to say that he was a good zone corner - and these were the things he didn't do at Bama).

He had a full plate to learn as a rookie (unlike McCourty who was simply asked to play cover 2 corner for the most part by the Pats - whether man or zone under; or Patrick Peterson who was asked to simply play man with the Cards.)

For me, Jackson had a successful rookie season.
Not only was he thrown into the fire, he was asked to do a whole lot more than either McCourty or Peterson.

And need I repeat that the guys that failed were the safeties and the DC who were let go?

Need I rehash that even a highly-touted CB like Peterson was burned left and right doing (basically) the only thing that he did best in college?

Jason Allen was never the future; KJ is the future and the now.

Who was banking on Allen?
Definitely not me!
Will respond tomorrow. Sleep time.
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Old 03-24-2012   #51
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

And the debate rages on. I saw a lot of improvement from KJ last year, thought he looked very competent late in the season when the only passes he looked to be giving up were great plays by the WR's.

I guess next season it'll be whether he begins to stop the WR from making that great play as often that decides whether he will be a success in this league long term or not.

Also, I don't see anyone coming in and displacing him at CB2, or even taking significant snaps at him, how will he cope with being out there the whole time rather than subbing in/out and getting extra coaching for half the snaps.

Those are the 2 big questions for next season, if you ask me. He made a big step last year and I can see him becoming everything you need at #2 if he makes the same sort of progress again.

If he doesn't, Glover Quin's contract is up at the end of next season and Kareem might make a cheaper option at safety if he isn't going to make it as a corner.
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Old 03-24-2012   #52
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All I want to know is if 76 is a 'Bama fan. I've hinted in past discussions that he is, but have never had it confirmed nor denied.

He knows so much about KJ's college days, he has an affinity for the guy, so it makes me wonder.

The reason I ask is because sometimes our objectivity gets clouded when we've got an alma mater and an alum to defend.

Not saying he can't discuss the topic, but am only wondering if there's an extra reason or two for his often "soft" analysis of KJ.

Overall, 76, I enjoy your posts on other topics. The KJ thang just seems different than other players you analyze for some reason. No harm meant, 76.
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Old 03-25-2012   #53
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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All I want to know is if 76 is a 'Bama fan. I've hinted in past discussions that he is, but have never had it confirmed nor denied.

He knows so much about KJ's college days, he has an affinity for the guy, so it makes me wonder.

The reason I ask is because sometimes our objectivity gets clouded when we've got an alma mater and an alum to defend.

Not saying he can't discuss the topic, but am only wondering if there's an extra reason or two for his often "soft" analysis of KJ.

Overall, 76, I enjoy your posts on other topics. The KJ thang just seems different than other players you analyze for some reason. No harm meant, 76.
Nah, I'm a Coogs homer. Read my thread on Case Keenum in the college football forum and you'll know.

But I do watch a lot of SEC football throughout the year.
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Old 03-25-2012   #54
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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Nah, I'm a Coogs homer. Read my thread on Case Keenum in the college football forum and you'll know.

But I do watch a lot of SEC football throughout the year.
KJ sux. j/k bro. Just being a peckerhead.
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Old 03-25-2012   #55
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

I remember Diane Brown's rookie season he was especially bad and his sophmore year wasn't much better. As long as he continues to improve, something I believe he did, then he should start.
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Old 03-25-2012   #56
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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the problem is that last season we always had consistent pressure on the QB that the WR rarely even had a chance to put a double move on KJ. Lets not forget he did get burned pretty bad a few times. Thanks to Julio of the falcons dropping the ball we managed to hang on for that win.

If we dont get consistent pressure on the QB that is when i will be concerned cause that is when he will get exposed. like in 2010
While I don't share EllisUnit's general negativity surrounding Kj, what he says here has some truth. Not only regarding Kj, but our secondary as a whole. Jjo played well this season (second team All-pro), but he's also played well above what we (& I'm sure the Bengals) expected. A lot of that has to do with the defensive philosophy of Wade Phillips.

If our pass rush takes a step back, Jjo & Manning will become scape goats just like the 2010 Defensive Backfield.

& Kj will be center stage again.

The most telling part of the article, I think, was when Wade said Kj, "didn't let us down." What more can you ask for?

Another thing; I think most fans here have an unrealistic expectation of what to expect from a first round CB. The only Rookie CB I can think of that lived up to that expectation in recent years, I think, was Devon McCourthy in 2010. But then you look at him in 2011 & he looked as bad as Kj did his rookie season.

There's a reason for that, same reason for Kj's improvement in 2011. Same reason for Jjo's All-Pro year.


It's a team game.
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Old 03-25-2012   #57
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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I remember Diane Brown's rookie season...
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Old 03-25-2012   #58
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

All I'll say on this subject is that anyone who really feels that KJ is a good CB or a good guy to start for us really doesn't know what a good NFL corner is supposed to play like. He may have gotten better in his 2nd season, but that doesn't mean that he isn't a really bad corner.
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Old 03-25-2012   #59
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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Originally Posted by foo82 View Post
I saw Allen fall down more that KJ this past season.
Speaking of which, the Texans need to do something about that field.

That was pathetic.
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Old 03-25-2012   #60
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Default Re: Wade Phillips affirms Kareem Jackson as Texans’ No. 2 CB

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Never mind about Seahorn (whom I admit that I've never heard of - I don't know if anybody on this board can come up with that example either).

There are plenty of CBs who came out recently and were drafted higher than Jackson and never amounted to much. The duos from the Chargers for example.
One is better than the other, both were cover 2 corner.

But to answer your question, I would have to ask you to go back to the archive and read what I had to say when I started the thread analyzing KJ's play in college.

I said that KJ was an all-around solid CB.
He was a near-shutdown cover corner against "would-be or wanna-be" 2nd receiver (at most) in the NFL.
I questioned his deep speed (more like I recognized that it will not be his forte.)
I even gave that part to McCourty pre-draft (and that was why I had them neck-to-neck only because McCourty has a little better speed.)
I wasn't even sure if I would give either one of them first round grade.
I said I would feel more comfortable with both of them early in the second round.

Jackson's strength in coverage was to stay in phase with the receiver and thus discouraged a throw his way. Either the QB had to take a shot from the get-go or he woudn't have a chance to come back that-a-way.

He was (and is) a great tackler who can avoid blocks to get to the ball carrier better than a majority of CBs that were in the NFL before him.
He's a great forced man on the edge, unlike Dunta or Allen.


He can be useful in blitzes, but so far his NFL coaches hadn't asked him to do that yet (for various reasons too lengthy to get into.)

At Bama, Saban wanted him to stay mostly on the right side of the defense and keep up with the receiver if he reads pass. If he reads run, he was asked to come off his man and support. He did both exceptionally well. He was mostly on an island.

This allowed the safety to give help to the other side or to come down to play the run.
And when the opponent QBs "had to" go to the other side way too often against more coverage, there were more INT opportunities on the left side.
There wasn't a single play where the QB can come back to Jackson's side to find an open receiver.
This would result in a sack or a throw away if the QB tries to.

That was in college.

In his rookie year, the Texans moved him to play more on the left side of the D.
They wanted him to work on the shuffle, something he never did in college (at least in his last season at Bama - I had reviewed all the games except for games against 2nd tier schools.)
The Texans played him in some zone and cover 3 and he did those tasks as well as one can expect (prompting Wade and Vance Joseph to say that he was a good zone corner - and these were the things he didn't do at Bama).

He had a full plate to learn as a rookie (unlike McCourty who was simply asked to play cover 2 corner for the most part by the Pats - whether man or zone under; or Patrick Peterson who was asked to simply play man with the Cards.)

For me, Jackson had a successful rookie season.
Not only was he thrown into the fire, he was asked to do a whole lot more than either McCourty or Peterson.

And need I repeat that the guys that failed were the safeties and the DC who were let go?

Need I rehash that even a highly-touted CB like Peterson was burned left and right doing (basically) the only thing that he did best in college?

Jason Allen was never the future; KJ is the future and the now.

Who was banking on Allen?
Definitely not me!
MSR

I generally don't quote complete posts, especially when they're this long, But it's too goo, & needs to be repeated. As far as the player, I agree with your take on Kj. However, I wouldn't know about the 2nd round grade as that depends on who else is in the draft. We took him at what 20? So you're saying there were at least 12 players that you thought provided more value for the Texans in the 2010 draft?

Jermiane Gresham, Demaryius Thomas, Dez Bryant, Tim Tebow.... that's about all I see, so he's still a first rounder in my book.

I also can't speak to what McCourty, or Peterson was asked to do as I don't watch there games with that kind of attention to detail, but it does sound plausible & I appreciate the effort you put in to this.

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