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Old 04-03-2012   #141
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Default Re: Sean Payton suspended one year.

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Originally Posted by Playoffs View Post
Starting to sound like part of Saints motivation here is to discover/expose the "whistleblower".

Saints and NFL better be careful there...
Yeah, I wouldn't put it past them to put a real bounty on that guy's head...
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Old 04-03-2012   #142
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Default Re: Sean Payton suspended one year.

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
I agree that it is wrong, and that it shouldn't be tolerated, but I don't think the player should be banned from the league. What do you think AJ was trying to do here? Get a mosquito off Finnegan's ear?
Interesting point, one in which I wasn't thinking of when I made my post. But AJ and Finnegan was a spur of the moment fight in one game, not a long lasting conspiracy over multiple seasons to deliberately injure other players. I think an easily defined distinction can be made between the two cases.
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Old 04-03-2012   #143
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Default Re: Sean Payton suspended one year.

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Interesting point, one in which I wasn't thinking of when I made my post. But AJ and Finnegan was a spur of the moment fight in one game, not a long lasting conspiracy over multiple seasons to deliberately injure other players. I think an easily defined distinction can be made between the two cases.
So basically don't try to hurt someone in the course of the play, instead throw haymakers and beat the guy in the head like a hockey fight? C'mon, this is the most obvious form of "intent to injure" you can find in the NFL. Heat of the moment and all that for sure, but we have the difference of a couple individuals losing their cool, and a bunch of coaches directing and paying players to make cheap hits on opponents to take them out of the game.

So is it the money incentives, the coach's direction, or the player's 'intent to injure' that is the defining factor? Because AJ/Finnegan fight meets only 1 of those criteria.
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Old 04-03-2012   #144
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Default Re: Sean Payton suspended one year.

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Originally Posted by Thorn View Post
Interesting point, one in which I wasn't thinking of when I made my post. But AJ and Finnegan was a spur of the moment fight in one game, not a long lasting conspiracy over multiple seasons to deliberately injure other players. I think an easily defined distinction can be made between the two cases.
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So basically don't try to hurt someone in the course of the play, instead throw haymakers and beat the guy in the head like a hockey fight? C'mon, this is the most obvious form of "intent to injure" you can find in the NFL. Heat of the moment and all that for sure, but we have the difference of a couple individuals losing their cool, and a bunch of coaches directing and paying players to make cheap hits on opponents to take them out of the game.

So is it the money incentives, the coach's direction, or the player's 'intent to injure' that is the defining factor? Because AJ/Finnegan fight meets only 1 of those criteria.
I don't know about the "haymaker" comment but that's another thing.

That aside, aren't you two in agreement here in the big grand scheme of this thread's issue?
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Old 04-03-2012   #145
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Default Re: Sean Payton suspended one year.

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Originally Posted by Showtime100 View Post
I don't know about the "haymaker" comment but that's another thing.

That aside, aren't you two in agreement here in the big grand scheme of this thread's issue?
Banning all the players involved from the league forever? No, I think that's excessive. Suspensions and fines? Sure I'm in favor of that.

The distinction I'm leading up to is that the coaches created, enforced, supported and incentivized the program that led to these players to the 'intent to injure' opponents. We see 'intent to injure' in some plays whether it's the AJ/Finnegan fight, or any number of vicious hits from players that are look like they fit the profile. The NFL already fines and suspends players who do that, so I think that makes sense as many of those questionable hits were fined when they happened.

The problem to me is that coaches are supposed to be people that players look to for direction, people they want to play for, and use as mentors. Those guys breaking the rules, encouraging poor sportsmanship and showing a general lack of morality are the guys who really need to be punished. They are supposed to be upholding the league rules, which is why they are given the authority to fine their own players for stepping out of line. They have a much higher level of responsibility within the league than the guys taking orders on the field. That's where I draw the line with the ban vs suspension debate. I'm fine with any coach/GM they want to ban over this, but I have a hard time saying the players should get banned. The NFLPA would never let that happen anyways.
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Old 04-03-2012   #146
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Default Re: Sean Payton suspended one year.

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
Banning all the players involved from the league forever? No, I think that's excessive. Suspensions and fines? Sure I'm in favor of that.

The distinction I'm leading up to is that the coaches created, enforced, supported and incentivized the program that led to these players to the 'intent to injure' opponents. We see 'intent to injure' in some plays whether it's the AJ/Finnegan fight, or any number of vicious hits from players that are look like they fit the profile. The NFL already fines and suspends players who do that, so I think that makes sense as many of those questionable hits were fined when they happened.

The problem to me is that coaches are supposed to be people that players look to for direction, people they want to play for, and use as mentors. Those guys breaking the rules, encouraging poor sportsmanship and showing a general lack of morality are the guys who really need to be punished. They are supposed to be upholding the league rules, which is why they are given the authority to fine their own players for stepping out of line. They have a much higher level of responsibility within the league than the guys taking orders on the field. That's where I draw the line with the ban vs suspension debate. I'm fine with any coach/GM they want to ban over this, but I have a hard time saying the players should get banned. The NFLPA would never let that happen anyways.
Certainly, and I agree your post, especially with the bolded. A life sentence sounds a bit harsh. A year for Peyton is really all one should expect given the history of punishments in the NFL. More than a year, maybe even five years would work better, but that's me.

I can say I did like the "indefinite" part for Loomis. Question is, what will indefinite unltimately mean in this case?
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Old 04-03-2012   #147
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Default Re: Sean Payton suspended one year.

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
So basically don't try to hurt someone in the course of the play, instead throw haymakers and beat the guy in the head like a hockey fight? C'mon, this is the most obvious form of "intent to injure" you can find in the NFL. Heat of the moment and all that for sure, but we have the difference of a couple individuals losing their cool, and a bunch of coaches directing and paying players to make cheap hits on opponents to take them out of the game.

So is it the money incentives, the coach's direction, or the player's 'intent to injure' that is the defining factor? Because AJ/Finnegan fight meets only 1 of those criteria.
Premeditation.

That is the difference. And it is recognized in our legal system as well.
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Old 04-03-2012   #148
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Default Re: Sean Payton suspended one year.

I kind of have sympathy for the players on this one, if your coach tells you to play a certain way then you've got to go out and do what your told.

In a league thats 'not for long', you do everything you can to impress your coaches and get them to keep giving you that next contract.

What is the difference, from the players side, in acting on an instruction to try to injure your opponent at every given opportunity, to acting on an instruction to back-pedal with a different technique?

The difference is on the coach, not the player. IMO
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Old 04-03-2012   #149
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Default Re: Sean Payton suspended one year.

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
So basically don't try to hurt someone in the course of the play, instead throw haymakers and beat the guy in the head like a hockey fight? C'mon, this is the most obvious form of "intent to injure" you can find in the NFL. Heat of the moment and all that for sure, but we have the difference of a couple individuals losing their cool, and a bunch of coaches directing and paying players to make cheap hits on opponents to take them out of the game.

So is it the money incentives, the coach's direction, or the player's 'intent to injure' that is the defining factor? Because AJ/Finnegan fight meets only 1 of those criteria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlassHalfFull View Post
Premeditation.

That is the difference. And it is recognized in our legal system as well.
Glass nailed it and Dutch partially answered his own question. Two huge differences - premeditation and the involvement of the coaching staff.
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Old 04-04-2012   #150
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Default Re: Sean Payton suspended one year.

Government seems to have to get their fingers in the pie.

From the Times-Picayune: Senate panel passes resolution asking NFL to reconsider sanctions on New Orleans Saints
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Old 04-06-2012   #151
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Default Re: Sean Payton suspended one year.

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Government seems to have to get their fingers in the pie.

From the Times-Picayune: Senate panel passes resolution asking NFL to reconsider sanctions on New Orleans Saints
LA State Senate. Nobody is going to care. Politicians just trying to be fans. The King of my household (myself) has declared that these sanctions are appropriate. I think the difference in the power of those resolutions is minimal.
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Old 04-06-2012   #152
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Default Re: Sean Payton suspended one year.

Why are there so many government officials that like to poke governmental fingers where they don't belong?
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Old 04-07-2012   #153
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Default Re: Sean Payton suspended one year.

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Originally Posted by GlassHalfFull View Post
Premeditation.

That is the difference. And it is recognized in our legal system as well.
Bingo! That is IMO the difference in the two scenarios, and as you mention, it's also the way our legal systems sees it.
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Old 04-07-2012   #154
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Default Re: Sean Payton suspended one year.

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Why are there so many government officials that like to poke governmental fingers where they don't belong?
Hey, I like to poke my fingers where they don't belong, and I'm only working for the city!!
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Old 04-07-2012   #155
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Default Re: Sean Payton suspended one year.

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Why are there so many government officials that like to poke governmental fingers where they don't belong?





I'm a government official! And I can poke my fingers anywhere I want! And you can't stop me! La la la la la la la!
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Old 04-12-2012   #156
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Default Re: Sean Payton suspended one year.

http://www.neworleanssaints.com/news...b-9c67cc3940b3

Saints Announce that Assistant Head Coach/Linebackers Coach Joe Vitt to Assume Sean Payton Duties


Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite Open
Saints' OL coach Aaron Kromer is expected to become New Orleans' interim HC during first six games, while Joe Vitt serves his suspension.
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Old 04-12-2012   #157
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Default Re: Sean Payton suspended one year.

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
Government seems to have to get their fingers in the pie.

From the Times-Picayune: Senate panel passes resolution asking NFL to reconsider sanctions on New Orleans Saints
Hey Doc, Obviously you posted this a week ago, but I just now noticed it..


My first reaction is "REALLY"???? Our Government doesnt have more pressing issues? REALLYY???

As always, thanks for posting.
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Old 04-12-2012   #158
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Default Re: Sean Payton suspended one year.

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I kind of have sympathy for the players on this one, if your coach tells you to play a certain way then you've got to go out and do what your told.
Lots of Nazis in the Nuremburg Trials said the same thing: "We were just following orders. What else could we have done?" In fact, the whole country was an accessory to the crime(s).

Doing nothing can be a crime in of itself. In this instance, the players went along with the program. That's an endorsement of the policy. They're all grown men, not a hapless child.

I was thinking recently that there could have been a few moles that the NFL said, "Look, don't participate but keep us informed and you'll skate by with us when the charges get levied." So it's possible that some players did a little "something" that helped the greater good, but that's just my pet theory of the day. Mostly, however: The players are guilty in my eyes. Grown men know when something is wrong. If they didn't contact the league office or the NFLPA (and even get their attorney to document their efforts) then they deserve to be judged for their inaction. IMO.
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Old 04-13-2012   #159
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Default Re: Sean Payton suspended one year.

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Hey Doc, Obviously you posted this a week ago, but I just now noticed it..


My first reaction is "REALLY"???? Our Government doesnt have more pressing issues? REALLYY???

As always, thanks for posting.
It was the Louisiana state Senate that passed that resolution, not Congress. No big surprise there, and it probably passed without debate.
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Old 04-23-2012   #160
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Default Re: Sean Payton suspended one year.

Saints calling the Mickey Loomis Espionage reports 1000% FALSE:

Saints call Espionage reports False

Uh-OH, this could be really, really bad.
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