Mike Wallace to the Texans Petition

[80tothezone]

Originally Posted by Blake

Its not THAT crazy to fathom. While I dont think it is even an option (Cap wise), the help that a rookie WR can give us vs. the help Mike Wallace can give us is a HUGE disparity. How many rookie WR's come in their first season and tear the league up? 1 in 100?

If we didnt need a replacement for Mario, I would package picks this year and next to jump up and get Blackmon.

do we really need a Mario replacement? I think we saw him last yr.... and we got Brahman and I think one other on the other side other than barwin. I mean with the exception of Ryans our lb's are young and we have plenty of them. I would say our needs in order are WR, Ol, Cb, and I haven't heard what we did with OD so maybe a Te. Other than that it's Bpa

[Blake]

I am not comfortable going into 2012 with Reed, Barwin, Nading and Brahman.

I thought they should have signed on in FA, and drafted 2 OLB's in the first 2 rounds.

But holding money for Mario made that virtually impossible.

[Blake]

4.105) Carolina Panthers - Timekiller - 6 HOUR CLOCK IS RUNNING

4.106) Buffalo Bills - Texan4Ever -

4.107) Seattle Seahawks - Ndevine7 -

4.108) Kansas City Chiefs - Honoring Earl 34 -

4.109) New York Jets - kiwitexansfan -

4.110) Washington Redskins - Aussie Texan -

[GP]

Originally Posted by Blake

What does that mean to you? Can I get an example or 2 of this?

1 example is Lestar Jean.

Yeah, I know...he's not a big name from a big-time team, but Lestar Jean is that type of home-grown talent that will be a good fit for our offense.

He runs routes the way a route should be ran, unlike Jacoby who is a sloppy route runner and makes Schaub's passes look like they were thrown in the dirt or over Jacoby's head--In Kubiak's offense, you have to be in the right spot at the right time...you have to run PRECISE routes and break off the routes at the right time, because Schaub is timing his throw to a certain spot at a certain time.

This is why guys like Dreessen and OD and AJ and Walter are in this offense. Kubiak isn't just looking for whatever WR might be out there. He wants them to be reliable in the route running. He wants them to be precise. Some guys just don't do that, they freestyle it and they fit QBs like a Favre who also freestyles it a lot.

But Wallace's big problem is his price tag. Period.

[Marcus]

Speaking of Lestar Jean . . .

Did anyone besides me find his "injury/IR" status last preseason a little suspicious, for the lack of better words?

I mean, he was tearing it up in the 2nd halfs of the 1st two preseason games, and then we never saw him again. Then, in response to a question, Kubes said he was iinjured, and put on IR. I'm wondering if Kubes was just putting him "on ice" because he knew there wouldn't be an opening roster spot for him, but knew he wouldn't make it to the practice squad because he'd be picked up on waivers.

That was just something I'd been wondering about for a long time, and I thought I'd finally throw it out to see what you guys thought.

[Blake]

Originally Posted by GP

1 example is Lestar Jean.

Yeah, I know...he's not a big name from a big-time team, but Lestar Jean is that type of home-grown talent that will be a good fit for our offense.

He runs routes the way a route should be ran, unlike Jacoby who is a sloppy route runner and makes Schaub's passes look like they were thrown in the dirt or over Jacoby's head--In Kubiak's offense, you have to be in the right spot at the right time...you have to run PRECISE routes and break off the routes at the right time, because Schaub is timing his throw to a certain spot at a certain time.

This is why guys like Dreessen and OD and AJ and Walter are in this offense. Kubiak isn't just looking for whatever WR might be out there. He wants them to be reliable in the route running. He wants them to be precise. Some guys just don't do that, they freestyle it and they fit QBs like a Favre who also freestyles it a lot.

But Wallace's big problem is his price tag. Period.

I totally get where you are coming from, and I am also excited to see more of Lester Jean. Only problem I see with your post is that if Kubiak value's route running so much, then why even bother with Jacoby Jones this season? Dude has been in the league 4 seasons and is still awful with his route running.

I really think the only reason he is around is that his cap number this season is practically that of a rookie WR. But we've gone back and forth on what his cap hit actually is.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by GP

1 example is Lestar Jean.

Yeah, I know...he's not a big name from a big-time team, but Lestar Jean is that type of home-grown talent that will be a good fit for our offense.

He runs routes the way a route should be ran, unlike Jacoby who is a sloppy route runner and makes Schaub's passes look like they were thrown in the dirt or over Jacoby's head--In Kubiak's offense, you have to be in the right spot at the right time...you have to run PRECISE routes and break off the routes at the right time, because Schaub is timing his throw to a certain spot at a certain time.

I think you are overstating this...

Matt isn't out there just throwing to spots where the WR should be. When someone says that this is a "timing" offense it means that certain things on a given play need to be executed within a certain rythm...Like on bootlegs before a WR or TE gets into their route and is in a position to catch the ball, they need to sell the run for a certain amount of time so they are in rythm with everything else going on with the play...Normally it's like a 3 count, but it probably varies from play to, team to team, whatever...

It does not mean, be in a specific place at a specific time per se....

All of Matt's balls are not going to be perfect and he has thrown bad passes to more players than just Jacoby. Regardless of the timing aspects of a route, he still needs to see his target and throw a catchable ball...

Not if we are talking about a WR going one direction and Matt thinking he's going somewhere else...that's different. But if we are talking rounding your routes or not getting the proper depth or something of that nature that shouldn't affect the throw much...Maybe the receiver doesn't get as open as he should but the throw can still be on point. I remember a few times last year where a receiver was open for a catch and Matt short armed the throw...And that wasn't just to Jacoby...

Jacoby moves funny to me...He has awkward mannerisims...He's not a crisp, tight movement guy and I think that is a big part of his problem (along with him not having that great a pair of hands)....

But I don't think he has bad timing in the offense. Jacoby would be a good 3/4 receiver, but he is no #2 and he is no #1.....

[michaelm]

Originally Posted by GP

He runs routes the way a route should be ran, unlike Jacoby who is a sloppy route runner and makes Schaub's passes look like they were thrown in the dirt or over Jacoby's head--In Kubiak's offense, you have to be in the right spot at the right time...you have to run PRECISE routes and break off the routes at the right time, because Schaub is timing his throw to a certain spot at a certain time.

I'm not disagreeing with any of the above, but considering what you said, why is the supposedly sloppy route running Jacoby Jones still on a team with a head coach who requires that skill?
Only thing I can think of is that jacoby has a Kubiak voodoo doll.

[GP]

Originally Posted by Rey

I think you are overstating this...

Matt isn't out there just throwing to spots where the WR should be. When someone says that this is a "timing" offense it means that certain things on a given play need to be executed within a certain rythm...Like on bootlegs before a WR or TE gets into their route and is in a position to catch the ball, they need to sell the run for a certain amount of time.

It does not mean, be in a specific place at a specific time per se....

All of Matt's balls are not going to be perfect and he has thrown bad passes to more players than just Jacoby. Regardless of the timing aspects of a route, he still needs to see his target and throw a catchable ball...

Not if we are talking about a WR going one direction and Matt thinking he's going somewhere else...that's different. But if we are talking rounding your routes or not getting the proper depth or something of that nature that shouldn't affect the throw much...Maybe the receiver doesn't get as open as he should but the throw can still be on point. I remember a few times last year where a receiver was open for a catch and Matt short armed the throw...And that wasn't just to Jacoby...

Jacoby moves funny to me...He has awkward mannerisims...He's not a crisp, tight movement guy and I think that is a big part of his problem (along with him not having that great a pair of hands)....

But I don't think he has bad timing in the offense. Jacoby would be a good 3/4 receiver, but he is no #2 and he is no #1.....

Jacoby is sloppy. Period.

It's evident in his punt returning, too. It affects his route running. He doesn't pay attention to details.

When Jacoby breaks off a route two yards later than he should, the ball is in the dirt at his feet. When he breaks off a route earlier than he should, the ball is over his head. He hurts himself, and our team, by being a sloppy route runner.

It's something that I didn't notice until this season. And I was THE leading supporter of Jacoby during the summer of 2011 when the Jacoby vs. David Anderson debate was all the rage around here. I began to really study Jacoby's route running because I couldn't figure out why so many passes to Jacobu ended up short or long and he didn't even have a chance at those passes...I kept thinking, "There's no way Schaub is THAT inaccurate." And he isn't.

Yeah, Schaub is going to be hurried and wing a pass or twelve. But I'm talking about the times when Schaub had time to stand in the pocket and throw. I don't have time to find the film and break it down...and it would just be picked apart anyways, so there's no use in trying.

I stick to my statement: Jacoby is not a "details" guy. This is why he fields punts "on the bounce" in playoffs games. It's why he runs backwards on punts, or from sideline to sideline and gains 1 yard after running for 10 seconds. It's why the ball is over his head or at his feet when he's out there as a WR.

Jacoby is either on or off when the ball hits his hands. He's like laying the roulette wheel...you bet black and it turns up red, you lose. Then you play red, it turns black and you lose. Then you bet red again, and you win. There's just no reliability from him. None. He's not a details guy.

[GP]

Originally Posted by Marcus

Speaking of Lestar Jean . . .

Did anyone besides me find his "injury/IR" status last preseason a little suspicious, for the lack of better words?

I mean, he was tearing it up in the 2nd halfs of the 1st two preseason games, and then we never saw him again. Then, in response to a question, Kubes said he was iinjured, and put on IR. I'm wondering if Kubes was just putting him "on ice" because he knew there wouldn't be an opening roster spot for him, but knew he wouldn't make it to the practice squad because he'd be picked up on waivers.

That was just something I'd been wondering about for a long time, and I thought I'd finally throw it out to see what you guys thought.

I didn't mention that in my pervious posts here...because people think I have lots of crazy conspiracy theories about stuff like that.

But, yeah...I get what you're saying. It was fishy.

I remember thinking the same thing. He wasn't hurt enough to be fully I.R.'d, IMO, but Kubiak knew he had to work the system to protect him from being snagged by another team. That was my opinion then, it's my opinion now.

Originally Posted by Blake

I totally get where you are coming from, and I am also excited to see more of Lester Jean. Only problem I see with your post is that if Kubiak value's route running so much, then why even bother with Jacoby Jones this season? Dude has been in the league 4 seasons and is still awful with his route running.

I really think the only reason he is around is that his cap number this season is practically that of a rookie WR. But we've gone back and forth on what his cap hit actually is.

Because he was a Kubiak pick. 100%. And as much as I appreciate the way Kubiak is loyal to his guys, this is the sort of thing that gets to me.

Kubiak is a David Anderson fan, too. Brought him back for a game or two in 2011 because of his affinity for the guy. When you are IN with Kubiak, you're IN. Bob McNair even said that Kubiak had a hard time letting go of struggling d-coord Frank Bush. Which tells me--my theory here--that Wade Phillips was not Kubiak's decision...McNair urged him to fire Bush and told him he wanted Wade, and Kubiak relented and agreed to fire Frank and hire Wade.

McNair said in a recent interview that Dom Capers' inability to fire struggling assistants and coordinators is what got us the 2-14 season...and got Dom fired for it. So, this tells me that McNair gives his HC wide latitude in how to hire and fire, and when to hire and fire, and it seems McNair had a heart-to-heart and told Kubiak that sticking with Frank Bush might get him (Kubiak) fired in the end. Kubiak didn't do what Dom did; Kubiak fired Frank and therefore I think McNair said, "OK, let's try Wade and give it a go with him for awhile OK?" And Kubiak was cool with it. He had to be.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by GP

Jacoby is sloppy. Period.

It's evident in his punt returning, too. It affects his route running. He doesn't pay attention to details.

When Jacoby breaks off a route two yards later than he should, the ball is in the dirt at his feet. When he breaks off a route earlier than he should, the ball is over his head. He hurts himself, and our team, by being a sloppy route runner.

It's something that I didn't notice until this season. And I was THE leading supporter of Jacoby during the summer of 2011 when the Jacoby vs. David Anderson debate was all the rage around here. I began to really study Jacoby's route running because I couldn't figure out why so many passes to Jacobu ended up short or long and he didn't even have a chance at those passes...I kept thinking, "There's no way Schaub is THAT inaccurate." And he isn't.

Yeah, Schaub is going to be hurried and wing a pass or twelve. But I'm talking about the times when Schaub had time to stand in the pocket and throw. I don't have time to find the film and break it down...and it would just be picked apart anyways, so there's no use in trying.

I stick to my statement: Jacoby is not a "details" guy. This is why he fields punts "on the bounce" in playoffs games. It's why he runs backwards on punts, or from sideline to sideline and gains 1 yard after running for 10 seconds. It's why the ball is over his head or at his feet when he's out there as a WR.

Jacoby is either on or off when the ball hits his hands. He's like laying the roulette wheel...you bet black and it turns up red, you lose. Then you play red, it turns black and you lose. Then you bet red again, and you win. There's just no reliability from him. None. He's not a details guy.

I said that Jacoby is sloppy and I said he was not a #1 or #2 reciever. I thought I illustrated my point pretty well as the only thing I disagreed with you about was the "timing" part of the offense and Matt throwing balls in the dirt because of it.

We can agree to disagree on that one particular aspect or we can hash it out. A bad ball is not always on the QB, but most of the time I would say it is. An exception would be like like I stated above where the receiver flat out does the wrong thing or goes the wrong direction.

I've seen Matt throw balls in the dirt to Andre and he is about as crisp and clean a route runner as there is.

[GP]

Originally Posted by Rey

I said that Jacoby is sloppy and I said he was not a #1 or #2 reciever. I thought I illustrated my point pretty well as the only thing I disagreed with you about was the "timing" part of the offense and Matt throwing balls in the dirt because of it.

We can agree to disagree on that one particular aspect or we can hash it out. A bad ball is not always on the QB, but most of the time I would say it is. An exception would be like like I stated above where the receiver flat out does the wrong thing or goes the wrong direction.

I've seen Matt throw balls in the dirt to Andre and he is about as crisp and clean a route runner as there is.

I didn't read all of your post. I was just re-stating my viewpoint with more detail than I did before. My bad.

Yes, Schaub is going to lame duck a few passes. I agree. But more times than not, the receivers are in the vicinity and can get a hand on a pass. With JJ, I notice that he is many times not even in the right "area"...he's several yards (which can be as much as 6 feet since two yards is 6 feet) and therefore he's out of position to begin with. His frame and athleticism allow him to make up some of that gap, but even so...he is behind the 8-ball by that point in time. That's why a pass glances off his hands awkwardly. He has a lot of that, and it's on him.

He also drops easy passes too. Was re-watching the 2010 Texans/Skins game and he dropped two or three easy passes. It was bad.

My problem is AJ went down, and beginning with the Raiders game we needed him to step up and be a dynamic part of the offense. But he couldn't do it. He was a non-factor in the Raiders game. He was largely absent the entire year.

I think we have better talent for his spot on the roster. I didn't think that in the summer of 2011, but I do now. For the reward he can bring, he's not worth the risk involved with trying to throw to him. He's had many, many years to get there and at the end of the day he shouldn't even be WR3 here.

[Bulls on Parade]

I'd love to see the Texans make Mike Wallace an offer the Steelers couldn't match. Giving up the 26th pick for him is a bargin. But unfortunately, now that the Broncos signed Peyton Manning and still have a lot of cap space left... It's hard to imagine the Broncos not offering Mike Wallace a big contract offer. They would have to give up the 25th pick to Pittsburgh if they failed to match.

[badboy]

I'm still of the opinion that Marvin McNutt will be avail #58 and coupled with Lestar Jean should fill out the position. OLB in first.

[GP]

Originally Posted by badboy

I'm still of the opinion that Marvin McNutt will be avail #58 and coupled with Lestar Jean should fill out the position. OLB in first.

No thanks. I don't want a guy with a name like Marvin McNutt on my team.

I am a big believer in how a person's name affects their talent level. Guys like John Elway, Joe Montana, Michael Jordan, Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth, Joe Namath, they all have cool-ass names.

Marvin McNutt? No way.

Might as well be Harold Flaghnessy or Delbert O'Riley. Or maybe Leonard Rustpocket.

He would have to be out-of-this-universe AWESOME for me to look at our roster and see Marvin McNutt's name on there. Sounds like a cartoon character.

[GP]

Originally Posted by Texan_Bill

GP, I was contemplating starting a Mario Williams is a Bill thread.... Thoughts??

No, we need this thread title to pop up on the Texans Talk forum:

WTH? We didn't get Mario? Broncos land Manning too?!?! Shane got killed off on The Walking Dead?!?! Obama is an alien! Do you think we should trade Lowry?

[redwhiteblue]

I am a fan of Lestar Jean, but I can't extrapolate plays he made in preseason games against a second team defense, into how he will produce in the NFL. While I think Jean may have a chance to start ahead of anyone we draft other than Malcolm Floyd, I have not seen enough to determine he is the long term answer for a #2 or an eventual #1. I started this thread because I am aware of the financial implications of signing Wallace, but he has 3 solid years of NFL production, and if Andre Johnson can not return to 100% or has nagging reoccuring injuries, I do not wish to see the Texans play out the season with Walter, Jones, Jean and a rookie wide receiver. Wallace can be our #1 and AJ can spend his final years as a Texan being the #2 option. If AJ remains healthy, it can be a #1a, 1b situation similar to Fitzgerald and Boldin.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by GP

No thanks. I don't want a guy with a name like Marvin McNutt on my team.

I am a big believer in how a person's name affects their talent level. Guys like John Elway, Joe Montana, Michael Jordan, Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth, Joe Namath, they all have cool-ass names.

Marvin McNutt? No way.

Might as well be Harold Flaghnessy or Delbert O'Riley. Or maybe Leonard Rustpocket.

He would have to be out-of-this-universe AWESOME for me to look at our roster and see Marvin McNutt's name on there. Sounds like a cartoon character.

What about LeStar Jean? That sounds pretty cool...


But about Lestar....I would treat him the same way we treated Arian...

Arian played well at the end of the season and looked pretty damn good in an actual NFL game...But we still brought in Ben Tate in the second round...

I'd still draft a good WR and if Jean beats him out then he beats him out. If the rookie WR looks good then the worse thing that happens is you have two good players added to your WR corps...

Honestly, I am thinking we should target WR in the 3rd, but I don't know who will be available when, so its hard to say...

[Goldensilence]

I'd really love the FO to give some consideration, not to Wallace necessarily, but a look at someone who might turn into a legit #2 in FA.

Truth is this staff really hasn't done a great job at developing WRs. Lestar Jean? No clue, I didn't get to watch much preseason action this year. But, seems like every offseason we have a flavor of the OTAS and preseason that never pans out at WR.

The Derrick Mason move baffled me. Dude was NOT what we needed then. Maybe Gary and Co. are having to learn position by position that having "their guys" can only work if they can be coached up or that they aren't just lunch pail sort of guys.

IF they do pick up a WR in the first or second I'd have much more confidence if they were a bit more polished.

[TejasTom]

Originally Posted by redwhiteblue

"preseason sensation" and "before getting hurt" are two phrases that do not instill a lot of confidence in me.

Two words: Ben Tate