Go Back   Houston Texans Message Board & Forum - TexansTalk.com > The Great Fans of the Houston Texans > Texans Talk
Home Forums Register FAQDonate Automatic Monthly Contribution Members List Mark Forums Read


Texans Talk Football talk only please. Keep it to the game, the players, the coaches and management.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-09-2012   #21
arb729
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 170
Rep Power: 419 arb729 is a quality contributor and well respectedarb729 is a quality contributor and well respectedarb729 is a quality contributor and well respectedarb729 is a quality contributor and well respectedarb729 is a quality contributor and well respectedarb729 is a quality contributor and well respectedarb729 is a quality contributor and well respectedarb729 is a quality contributor and well respectedarb729 is a quality contributor and well respectedarb729 is a quality contributor and well respectedarb729 is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhouston View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpXoTj0kTKk

But then again ... pretty buff for a punter.

he's ripped for sure, but he's not steroid ripped, IMO

if he's given Vicodin/the like for the pain after surgery, does that show up in a test? Is that even banned?
arb729 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2012   #22
Texan_Bill 
Subscribed Contributor
 
Texan_Bill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Houston. Mediocrity Lives Here!!
Section: Bull Pen!!
Age: 47
Posts: 48,151
Rep Power: 108115 Texan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

This is AWESOME to me!! A punter busted for PED's is hilarious!!

Matt Turk is stoked!!!

All that said, I'm glad Texans players are doing things to "take the next step" towards a championship!!!!

I hope that we next find out that Mojo was on anti-depressants!!! That would be AWESOME!!!!


LMFAO... Mojo is a modern reference!!
__________________
We SUCK AGAIN!
Texan_Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2012   #23
NastyNate
I go kerplunk
 
NastyNate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Seabrook
Section: Uranus
Posts: 1,625
Rep Power: 51554 NastyNate is a quality contributor and well respectedNastyNate is a quality contributor and well respectedNastyNate is a quality contributor and well respectedNastyNate is a quality contributor and well respectedNastyNate is a quality contributor and well respectedNastyNate is a quality contributor and well respectedNastyNate is a quality contributor and well respectedNastyNate is a quality contributor and well respectedNastyNate is a quality contributor and well respectedNastyNate is a quality contributor and well respectedNastyNate is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

Quote:
Originally Posted by arb729 View Post
he's ripped for sure, but he's not steroid ripped, IMO

if he's given Vicodin/the like for the pain after surgery, does that show up in a test? Is that even banned?


Tim Sylvia popped for steroids in 2003, doesn't much look like a steroid user to me. Most athletes use them more for the ability to train while still healing, not strictly getting ripped. Could be anything though.
__________________
I intend to live forever... so far so good.
NastyNate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2012   #24
Texn4life
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Age: 32
Posts: 3,047
Rep Power: 30851 Texn4life is a quality contributor and well respectedTexn4life is a quality contributor and well respectedTexn4life is a quality contributor and well respectedTexn4life is a quality contributor and well respectedTexn4life is a quality contributor and well respectedTexn4life is a quality contributor and well respectedTexn4life is a quality contributor and well respectedTexn4life is a quality contributor and well respectedTexn4life is a quality contributor and well respectedTexn4life is a quality contributor and well respectedTexn4life is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

Well one angle to look at it is at least McClain was able to get out in front of this story.

The other is at least we're looking at Punter (who was hurt for the last quarter plus of the season anyway) being out the first few games as opposed to the mess that the Broncos are in. I'm suspecting that we were going to bring competition for him anyway seeing as he's coming off of an ACL injury.
Texn4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2012   #25
Texan_Bill 
Subscribed Contributor
 
Texan_Bill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Houston. Mediocrity Lives Here!!
Section: Bull Pen!!
Age: 47
Posts: 48,151
Rep Power: 108115 Texan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

Quote:
Originally Posted by NastyNate View Post


Tim Sylvia popped for steroids in 2003, doesn't much look like a steroid user to me. Most athletes use them more for the ability to train while still healing, not strictly getting ripped. Could be anything though.
Anna Nicole Smith (another modern reference ) thinks Tim Sylvia has big boobs!!!
__________________
We SUCK AGAIN!
Texan_Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2012   #26
Texan_Bill 
Subscribed Contributor
 
Texan_Bill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Houston. Mediocrity Lives Here!!
Section: Bull Pen!!
Age: 47
Posts: 48,151
Rep Power: 108115 Texan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respectedTexan_Bill is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

Quote:
Originally Posted by NastyNate View Post


Tim Sylvia popped for steroids in 2003, doesn't much look like a steroid user to me. Most athletes use them more for the ability to train while still healing, not strictly getting ripped. Could be anything though.
BTW, I heard Dunlop Tire is thinking about endrorsing Sylvia!!
__________________
We SUCK AGAIN!
Texan_Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2012   #27
arb729
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 170
Rep Power: 419 arb729 is a quality contributor and well respectedarb729 is a quality contributor and well respectedarb729 is a quality contributor and well respectedarb729 is a quality contributor and well respectedarb729 is a quality contributor and well respectedarb729 is a quality contributor and well respectedarb729 is a quality contributor and well respectedarb729 is a quality contributor and well respectedarb729 is a quality contributor and well respectedarb729 is a quality contributor and well respectedarb729 is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

Quote:
Originally Posted by NastyNate View Post


Tim Sylvia popped for steroids in 2003, doesn't much look like a steroid user to me. Most athletes use them more for the ability to train while still healing, not strictly getting ripped. Could be anything though.
Point well taken.

That being said, why wouldn't he just take HGH and recover from the ACL tear in 4 months, ala Wes Welker?
arb729 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
Old 03-09-2012   #28
gg no re
iggnorent
 
gg no re's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Age: 28
Posts: 4,814
Rep Power: 29181 gg no re is a quality contributor and well respectedgg no re is a quality contributor and well respectedgg no re is a quality contributor and well respectedgg no re is a quality contributor and well respectedgg no re is a quality contributor and well respectedgg no re is a quality contributor and well respectedgg no re is a quality contributor and well respectedgg no re is a quality contributor and well respectedgg no re is a quality contributor and well respectedgg no re is a quality contributor and well respectedgg no re is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan_Bill View Post
This is AWESOME to me!! A punter busted for PED's is hilarious!!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Zone
And btw, though I could care less who Avril is doing or who she marries, I love her voice and her music.
gg no re is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2012   #29
NastyNate
I go kerplunk
 
NastyNate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Seabrook
Section: Uranus
Posts: 1,625
Rep Power: 51554 NastyNate is a quality contributor and well respectedNastyNate is a quality contributor and well respectedNastyNate is a quality contributor and well respectedNastyNate is a quality contributor and well respectedNastyNate is a quality contributor and well respectedNastyNate is a quality contributor and well respectedNastyNate is a quality contributor and well respectedNastyNate is a quality contributor and well respectedNastyNate is a quality contributor and well respectedNastyNate is a quality contributor and well respectedNastyNate is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

Quote:
Originally Posted by arb729 View Post
Point well taken.

That being said, why wouldn't he just take HGH and recover from the ACL tear in 4 months, ala Wes Welker?
Yup yup, HGH is the new wonder drug and damn near impossible to get busted for. Maybe he was purchasing from Sly Stallone?
__________________
I intend to live forever... so far so good.
NastyNate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2012   #30
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
 
TheMatrix31's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: California
Posts: 7,102
Rep Power: 54251 TheMatrix31 is a quality contributor and well respectedTheMatrix31 is a quality contributor and well respectedTheMatrix31 is a quality contributor and well respectedTheMatrix31 is a quality contributor and well respectedTheMatrix31 is a quality contributor and well respectedTheMatrix31 is a quality contributor and well respectedTheMatrix31 is a quality contributor and well respectedTheMatrix31 is a quality contributor and well respectedTheMatrix31 is a quality contributor and well respectedTheMatrix31 is a quality contributor and well respectedTheMatrix31 is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

The fact that so many athletes take these things for healing more than flat-out size and strength only emphasizes the point that I think the whole discussion over these things is pretty damn overblown, especially in baseball.

Obviously when you get into kids seeing players doing this stuff and thinking they have to do it themselves, that's another issue altogether.
TheMatrix31 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2012   #31
GP 
Go Texans!
 
GP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: TEXAS!
Posts: 17,747
Rep Power: 50777 GP is a quality contributor and well respectedGP is a quality contributor and well respectedGP is a quality contributor and well respectedGP is a quality contributor and well respectedGP is a quality contributor and well respectedGP is a quality contributor and well respectedGP is a quality contributor and well respectedGP is a quality contributor and well respectedGP is a quality contributor and well respectedGP is a quality contributor and well respectedGP is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

The problem is the old "slippery slope" analogy.

Once you allow that one guy int he NFL to use HGH (or whatever) the NFL has set a precedent and it will be hell for everyone in terms of trying to argue that "your guy" needs it, when maybe he doesn't, etc.

There would be roughly 90% of the NFL players claiming they need it to recover from various injuries.

Maybe they could only allow it in extreme cases where a guy had been I.R.'d and it's a blown ACL or other SEVERE ligament injuries. It'd have to be verified by maybe three separate, NFL-approved/sanctioned physicians who all three concur that the player DID receive a severe ligament injury, or whatever they deem is severe...and it would have to be administered by the NFL's docs at THEIR chosen facility and also witnessed by separate, impartial witnesses. Then they'd need to say "He can only take it for x-amount of time," then they test him after the treatment was to have ended to make sure he cleans it out of his system 100%. Then RE-TEST that player throughout the year to make sure he hasn't reverted back to taking it again.

Sounds like a damn difficult process, IMO, to make it available AND properly sanctioned by the NFL. Otherwise, every guy on every team is going to flood the NFL offices with petitions to use this "therapy" for what ails them.

Just my thoughts on why it could or could not be allowed in today's NFL.
__________________
GP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2012   #32
SCOTTexans
Veteran
 
SCOTTexans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Webster
Age: 26
Posts: 499
Rep Power: 3792 SCOTTexans is a quality contributor and well respectedSCOTTexans is a quality contributor and well respectedSCOTTexans is a quality contributor and well respectedSCOTTexans is a quality contributor and well respectedSCOTTexans is a quality contributor and well respectedSCOTTexans is a quality contributor and well respectedSCOTTexans is a quality contributor and well respectedSCOTTexans is a quality contributor and well respectedSCOTTexans is a quality contributor and well respectedSCOTTexans is a quality contributor and well respectedSCOTTexans is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

Quote:
Originally Posted by edo783 View Post
That would be an interesting question to have asked and answered.
"Both John McClain of the Houston Chronicle and Mark Berman of Fox 26 in Houston have the report.

Hartmann was injured reserve at the end of the season, and the penalty came down during the Texans playoff push. He technically served the first game of his four-game suspension for the playoff loss in Baltimore."

Looks like it was to speed up his recovery, sense he failed it during the playoff
SCOTTexans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2012   #33
SheTexan
Site Contributor
 
SheTexan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Pasadena, Texas
Age: 69
Posts: 7,138
Rep Power: 29598 SheTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedSheTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedSheTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedSheTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedSheTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedSheTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedSheTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedSheTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedSheTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedSheTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedSheTexan is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTTexans View Post
"Both John McClain of the Houston Chronicle and Mark Berman of Fox 26 in Houston have the report.

Hartmann was injured reserve at the end of the season, and the penalty came down during the Texans playoff push. He technically served the first game of his four-game suspension for the playoff loss in Baltimore."

Looks like it was to speed up his recovery, sense he failed it during the playoff
Why ASSUME he was taking "roids?" Why would the NFL even test him if he was on IR?

I have a feeling he tested POS for something other than "roids" or prescription drugs! JMO! Don't really care cause I like Turk better anyway.
__________________
Quote:
Wake up, thank the Man for today, and dominate everything you do.
Brian Cushing
SheTexan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2012   #34
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
 
CloakNNNdagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 15,553
Rep Power: 182645 CloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respectedCloakNNNdagger is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

The time line of when the abuse occurred then was discovered, to the time a suspension was handed down can be a very long period of time.

The initial occurrence of an abuse, later confirmed by testing (and possibly by a second confirmatory test requested later by the player) may lead to disciplinary fine, but not suspension. The abuse is not disclosed publically, and the player is placed in an anonymous staged "therapeutic" program. It is not until at least a second occurrence of abuse or other non-compliance within the program is uncovered by testing that a 4 game suspension in addition to any further fine.

NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE POLICY AND PROGRAM FOR SUBSTANCES OF ABUSE
CloakNNNdagger is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2012   #35
KMG 365
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 133
Rep Power: 1251 KMG 365 is a quality contributor and well respectedKMG 365 is a quality contributor and well respectedKMG 365 is a quality contributor and well respectedKMG 365 is a quality contributor and well respectedKMG 365 is a quality contributor and well respectedKMG 365 is a quality contributor and well respectedKMG 365 is a quality contributor and well respectedKMG 365 is a quality contributor and well respectedKMG 365 is a quality contributor and well respectedKMG 365 is a quality contributor and well respectedKMG 365 is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

Hartmann was not busted for taking PEDs. He violated the substance abuse policy. Those are two different policies. The substance abuse policy involves things like marijuana, cocaine, etc.

My guess is that he was notified of the positive test between the Bengals playoff game and the Ravens playoff game, hence, the credit for serving one game already.

Once a player is notified of a positive test he usually appeals. That's why we haven't heard about it until now. I imagine Hartmann lost his appeal, therefore, the suspension stands.
KMG 365 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2012   #36
Premier
All Pro
 
Premier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 942
Rep Power: 10262 Premier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

hartmann was doing really well this season, not to mention he was a rookie that handles the game and bad snaps very well.. he is currently the texans record holder for longest punt.. i expect him to have all the texans records over the course of his career.. hes solid...
__________________
Premier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2012   #37
Premier
All Pro
 
Premier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 942
Rep Power: 10262 Premier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

Quote:
Originally Posted by KMG 365 View Post
Hartmann was not busted for taking PEDs. He violated the substance abuse policy. Those are two different policies. The substance abuse policy involves things like marijuana, cocaine, etc.
ummm performing enhancing drugs fall under the "substance abuse" category. according to NFL rules.. it can be anything ranging from HGH, anabolic steroids, alcohol, to over the counter drugs...
__________________
Premier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2012   #38
GP 
Go Texans!
 
GP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: TEXAS!
Posts: 17,747
Rep Power: 50777 GP is a quality contributor and well respectedGP is a quality contributor and well respectedGP is a quality contributor and well respectedGP is a quality contributor and well respectedGP is a quality contributor and well respectedGP is a quality contributor and well respectedGP is a quality contributor and well respectedGP is a quality contributor and well respectedGP is a quality contributor and well respectedGP is a quality contributor and well respectedGP is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

It could have been a lot of things. You can take certain cough medicines, or cold-related relief medicines, and get popped for "substances."

Happens in the UFC too. Those guys cannot take certain medicines or they get popped. Sucks big time...considering the good stuff for clearing up a bad cold or the flu or whatever contains drugs the organization deems non-permissable.

I will reserve judgment until (if at all) we learn more. There is a wide array of things it could have been. He doesn't seem to be a druggie to me. But who knows?

SheTexan: I never would have pegged you as a Turk fan over Hartmann. Hartmann has those looks and the skills, what does Turk have that makes your eyes twinkle? An AARP card? Just kidding! Don't neg rep me! I Luv u! LOL.
__________________
GP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2012   #39
SheTexan
Site Contributor
 
SheTexan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Pasadena, Texas
Age: 69
Posts: 7,138
Rep Power: 29598 SheTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedSheTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedSheTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedSheTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedSheTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedSheTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedSheTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedSheTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedSheTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedSheTexan is a quality contributor and well respectedSheTexan is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

Quote:
Originally Posted by GP View Post
It could have been a lot of things. You can take certain cough medicines, or cold-related relief medicines, and get popped for "substances."

Happens in the UFC too. Those guys cannot take certain medicines or they get popped. Sucks big time...considering the good stuff for clearing up a bad cold or the flu or whatever contains drugs the organization deems non-permissable.

I will reserve judgment until (if at all) we learn more. There is a wide array of things it could have been. He doesn't seem to be a druggie to me. But who knows?

SheTexan: I never would have pegged you as a Turk fan over Hartmann. Hartmann has those looks and the skills, what does Turk have that makes your eyes twinkle? An AARP card? Just kidding! Don't neg rep me! I Luv u! LOL.
Sometimes ya just gotta pull for the OLDtimers!! NO neg rep my friend! Old is AWESOME!!
__________________
Quote:
Wake up, thank the Man for today, and dominate everything you do.
Brian Cushing
SheTexan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2012   #40
Yankee_In_TX
Dance Lindsay!
 
Yankee_In_TX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Houston, 77008
Age: 35
Posts: 12,448
Rep Power: 10048 Yankee_In_TX is a quality contributor and well respectedYankee_In_TX is a quality contributor and well respectedYankee_In_TX is a quality contributor and well respectedYankee_In_TX is a quality contributor and well respectedYankee_In_TX is a quality contributor and well respectedYankee_In_TX is a quality contributor and well respectedYankee_In_TX is a quality contributor and well respectedYankee_In_TX is a quality contributor and well respectedYankee_In_TX is a quality contributor and well respectedYankee_In_TX is a quality contributor and well respectedYankee_In_TX is a quality contributor and well respected
Send a message via AIM to Yankee_In_TX
Cool Re: Brett Hartmann suspended

I believe, based on chatter on 610, he said he got popped for something he was taking during his rehab and 'didn't know' it would cause him to test positive.

My pet peeve is when players say that.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by DexmanC View Post
Booty took a sack, which is what you CAN'T do.
Only fan in Ohio in 2002 :) Glad I moved to Texas!
117 C BullPen
Sigh.
Yankee_In_TX is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Houston Texans Message Board & Forum - TexansTalk.com > The Great Fans of the Houston Texans > Texans Talk
Home Forums Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Ad Management by RedTyger