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Old 03-02-2012   #81
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
Ahh, yes. I've heard you call the show for years. You are a knowledge football fan but a mild Texan fan. This explains a lot of our differences. You haven't been emotionally invested in this franchise the way some of us have been... which is fine. But, it does explain some of the differences in perspectives.

Also, Kirwan has never had much of a handle on the Texans. Because he has no inside contacts within the organization, he has few insights on it, IMO. I remember that late in 2009 he argued rather strongly that the Cincinnati Bengals were a much more talented team than the Texans and had a brighter future. That was silliness and is indicative of his lack of knowledge concerning the Texans.
Dude. Seriously?

(sigh)

Put the Super Fan Koolaid down for a second. I can't believe you'd say that, in that way, on here. And then to go on about Kirwan not being knowledgeable?

I don't know what else to say.
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Old 03-02-2012   #82
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

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Dude. Seriously?

(sigh)

Put the Super Fan Koolaid down for a second. I can't believe you'd say that, in that way, on here. And then to go on about Kirwan not being knowledgeable?

I don't know what else to say.
No insult intended. I've heard him on that show for years. I'm not claiming to be a super fan. He was simply not particularly focused on the Texans for years. He has acknowledged as much before on the show... often calling to talk about teams like San Diego. I was just commenting on the different perspectives we have contributing to how we see things differently.

Also, I'm not saying Kirwan isn't knowledgeable. I'm saying he's not in touch with the Texans because of a lack of connections to them. This is something pretty widespread in the media. The Texans get less coverage, not only because they have stunk for so long, but also because the organization has a small inner circle.

If the previous post sounded like an insult toward Leebigeztx then I simply worded it poorly.
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Old 03-02-2012   #83
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

So dale, I don't know the texans because I can spek about every team in the league? My sig says it all because that's me. I record the texans every week and I also record and watch a lot of teams. Just because I talk or give my review of a team not named the texans has 0 to do with our disagreements. I'm objective and u think mario is average. I. Think mario is an elite player playing an elite position. You think he's easily replaceable. Because of the way the defense played without him. That's our disagreement. If he leaves because he just wants to leave, so be it. I think the texans will offer him a very attractive deal.

You won't like it and neither will some of the others that follow the way you think. Mario, despite his injuries, most of which he played through, is an elite talent and player. Look around the league and attempt to find a guy who can rush and play the run. Look at the defenses he's played wth when the next leding pass rusher had 2 sack and a secondary leaving windows wide open like its summertime. All those game changers and elite guys u mention always had others. One yr with wade in dallas, they led the league in sacks. In that season,ellis had 10, james had 8,and ratliff had 8 to help ware. Mario has never had a guy with more than 5. Freeney has always had mathis.when allen was in kc, hali was getting 8 sacks. Allen goes to minny, williams wall pushing the pocket in the qbs face. Merriman? In sd, casillas on the dl had 8 sacks along with sean phillips. I could continue, but just like in the other thread, ur mind is made up. So, I guess we will see soon enough.
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Old 03-03-2012   #84
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He's a mild Texans fan because he also chooses to educate himself about other teams, to call into a show and speak about more than just the Texans?

What national sports analyst IS a guy who knows the Texans inside and out, and can focus solely on the Texans? They have 31 other teams to look at and discuss on their shows. That's why ESPN developed the blog system where a guy like Kuharsky covers the AFC South.

You're trying to discredit a fellow fan and a pretty solid national analyst. I would re-think that strategy, if I were you.

Look at his avatar. It's all AFC South teams with Homer being the Texans fan. Translation. Lee is a Texans homer. Doh!
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Old 03-03-2012   #85
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

All these numbers are just killing my brain. Have no concept of it. These damn CBAs for sports are so convoluted. Not surprising.

Wake me up when we've got it figured out, lol.
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Old 03-03-2012   #86
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

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All these numbers are just killing my brain. Have no concept of it. These damn CBAs for sports are so convoluted. Not surprising.

Wake me up when we've got it figured out, lol.
The thing that gets me, is that if sports players can get this kind of profit sharing from the owners, imagine what we could have accomplished if the our Unions weren't so small minded & corrupt.
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Old 03-03-2012   #87
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

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All these numbers are just killing my brain. Have no concept of it. These damn CBAs for sports are so convoluted. Not surprising.

Wake me up when we've got it figured out, lol.
I hear ya. There was a time when there were guys on the internet that had the salary caps pretty well figured out. Those guys seem to have given up due to the lack of information released by teams/agents. No one but the contract guys in the NFL really know what is going on. Doesn't stop the media or some fans from proclaiming that they do.
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Old 03-03-2012   #88
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

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I hear ya. There was a time when there were guys on the internet that had the salary caps pretty well figured out. Those guys seem to have given up due to the lack of information released by teams/agents. No one but the contract guys in the NFL really know what is going on. Doesn't stop the media or some fans from proclaiming that they do.
You used to be able to go the the NFLPA website and get official contract information. They removed that option or hid it from public view a couple years ago.
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Old 03-03-2012   #89
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You used to be able to go the the NFLPA website and get official contract information. They removed that option or hid it from public view a couple years ago.
Wonder why they thought that was a positive thing to do..?
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Old 03-03-2012   #90
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

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Lol...so your plan is to cut a guy whom you & dale call "injury prone" to add another injury prone player in Marques Colston?
No I never said Mario is injury prone. I said its stupid to spend that big of a chunk of cap space on one player. Maybe you should quite getting your little feelings hurt every time someone mentions that resigning Mario might not be the best move for us. Colston was just an example hence the word "example" in front of his name.

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What's more is that you have this same line of thinking with regards to resigning Brisiel.......another guy who's missed 20+ games in 3 different seasons for us.
Other important players that currently play big roles in our success have been injured (Ryans, Breisal) and there isn't a whole lot of quality backups behind them should they go down again. This is exactly why IMO we should use that money to strengthen our depth.

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Meanwhile you've got dale spewing his usual garbage as if its a certainty that the FA's are gonna wanna come here or if we'll even be able to afford them.....or even if they'll have any more of an impact that the guys we have here now.
I can't control what Dale says but I happen to agree with him on this one. Why wouldn't a vet FA want ot come here. There is lots to like about this franchise right now. If we could afford this monstrous contract you think Mario deserves then why couldn't we afford some quality depth through FA? Seems like simple math to me.

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Why we're still discussing whether or not to get a NT is irrelevant. I don't think we lose or gain much with or without a cody. Wade likes Mitchell, that's good enough for me.
I wasn't in that discussion but, If we cut Cody and Mitchell goes down, who takes his place? Who do we even put in the rotation or do you suggest Mitchell doesn't ever need to come off the field? On top of that you (nor I) have any idea how important to the locker room Cody is. Stats aren't the only thing that determines a players value to a team.

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You guys don't know what you want & you're assuming alot based on 1 successful season. Reed & Barwin are likely to see teams play them differently next year..our comp in division & out of division will be getting better next year too. I don't think either of these guys is good enough to overcome what will be coming their way next year...& for that reason and a few others i think the FO needs to seriously entertain bringing Mario back.
You are assuming a lot. They played well all season and actually picked it up a notch in the playoffs. You don't think that was tough competition? You don't think those teams made adjustments for them?

I want Mario back! I just want him back at a price that doesn't lock us up against the cap where we can't keep improving our depth. I don't think he is a game changer that deserves one of the biggest contracts in league history.
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Old 03-03-2012   #91
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You're both missing the point.

We don't have to cut anyone off the team. By restructuring Jjo, Antonio, OD, & Andre, we can free up the money to sign our big three (Myers, Foster, & Mario) plus our draft picks.

Then with the money you free up by dropping Mario's 2011 salary, that frees up $18M. You want Colston, you want Zuttah, what's stopping you? Sign them both for part of that $18M, you'll still have some left in reserve, unless you're saying those two guys are going to cost us more than Mario, Foster, Myers, & our draft picks.

& if you still need more money, restructure Matt Schaub & Demeco Ryans.

We've still got 53 men on this roster doing it this way, plus the two guys Mussop mentioned.

You've got to cut someone, just to get to 53.

Are you saying you want to cut Mario just for a roster spot? That's stupid.
If this is true then fine. I just find it hard to believe we can do all that and still be in good enough shape next year to resign all our big FA's.
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Old 03-03-2012   #92
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No one but the contract guys in the NFL really know what is going on.
I'm wrong. Not even the capologists know what the cap is, because the NFL and the NFLPA are still determining what the cap number will be.

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So why don’t teams know, only 10 days away from the launch of a new league year, the 2012 salary cap?


A source with knowledge of the situation tells PFT that the league and the NFLPA currently are “scrambling” to increase the tentative number.
Yet there are a ton of experts (both paid and amateur) who claim to know where teams' salary caps lie. Horsehockey!
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Old 03-03-2012   #93
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

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No I never said Mario is injury prone. I said its stupid to spend that big of a chunk of cap space on one player. Maybe you should quite getting your little feelings hurt every time someone mentions that resigning Mario might not be the best move for us. Colston was just an example hence the word "example" in front of his name.

point taken although my feelings aren't getting hurt, i just want those opposing to acknowledge every factor in play.

Other important players that currently play big roles in our success have been injured (Ryans, Breisal) and there isn't a whole lot of quality backups behind them should they go down again. This is exactly why IMO we should use that money to strengthen our depth.

Don't know what team you're watching but there's plenty of quality depth behind Ryans & Cush. Dobbins did fine in spots for Ryans last year & even sharpton coming back from injury is quality depth. It's part of the reason many think that Ryan's contract should be restructured. Other than that, We get our swing tackle Rashard Butler back (who if you recall acquitted himself nicely stepping in for Brown for 4 games in 2010) & we also get Studdard back from injury. The other thing is you're totaling discounting the draft as a place to find this depth. The reality of it is, every team has a weakness & depth is usually every teams' weakness depending on who goes down...You think that if Brees or Brady went down for the season their respective teams are going to have the same offense? What about Willis in SF or Polamalu for Pitt? Finding quality depth is a problem that all teams have to deal with; we aren't any different.


I can't control what Dale says but I happen to agree with him on this one. Why wouldn't a vet FA want ot come here. There is lots to like about this franchise right now. If we could afford this monstrous contract you think Mario deserves then why couldn't we afford some quality depth through FA? Seems like simple math to me.

The same reason a guy like Aso didn't want to come here last year..b/c someone paid them more.



I wasn't in that discussion but, If we cut Cody and Mitchell goes down, who takes his place? Who do we even put in the rotation or do you suggest Mitchell doesn't ever need to come off the field? On top of that you (nor I) have any idea how important to the locker room Cody is. Stats aren't the only thing that determines a players value to a team.

If we played a traditional 3-4 with a 400 lb beast in the middle, then yeah, we'd need to get a NT from somewhere; but we don't & this is precisely why bringing Mario back would be more advantageous to us. He's easily our most versatile front 7 guy & you could insert him anywhere along the line & at OLB in Wade's 3-4 & be fine. If Mitchell needs a blow, you can slide mario, smith or even watt in at the nose for a few plays. If you don't go that route, then yeah go ahead & draft a young kid & pay him less than half of what Cody's making to sit on the bench. Lets stop with overplaying Cody's worth here; he's a funny guy and all, but i don't think anyone on the team looks at this guy as a leader & he's not much of a factor anywhere...yes, that's my opinion.



You are assuming a lot. They played well all season and actually picked it up a notch in the playoffs. You don't think that was tough competition? You don't think those teams made adjustments for them?

I'm not assuming alot at all. Teams will play them differently & the teams in our division will get better; Hell 2 of them already have different HC's from last year & 2 others will likely have different more talented starting qbs. The other thing is your premise about them playing well all season just isn't true. the immediate 2 games when mario went out, we lost & got hammered by Baltimore. The schedule opened up & they started to really click but then we faltered late in the season against the colt & got hammered by the Panthers. The titans game was a wash. Then when we got in the playoffs We'd seen both of those teams in the reg. season so there was familiarity there. The other end of that is neither of those teams we faced in the playoffs had an elite offense or qb. We may not be so lucky next year.

I want Mario back! I just want him back at a price that doesn't lock us up against the cap where we can't keep improving our depth. I don't think he is a game changer that deserves one of the biggest contracts in league history.
As far as the last part, we're already up against the cap & we haven't signed anyone yet; all in all though both of us are on the same page here. I don't think anyone of us is advocating giving mario the world...but there needs to be an attempt made to keep him here......with a contract that's reasonable for both parties.
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Old 03-03-2012   #94
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

Tune in to 610 now they are talking about this
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Old 03-03-2012   #95
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

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I'm wrong. Not even the capologists know what the cap is, because the NFL and the NFLPA are still determining what the cap number will be.

Yet there are a ton of experts (both paid and amateur) who claim to know where teams' salary caps lie. Horsehockey!
This is why I don't "get" the whole drama from some people about how we can or cannot afford to sign one, or two, or all or whatever of our guys. It's been funny to watch everyone throw out these numbers. Nobody is the same, and if they are they're copying someone else's printed estimate from some other site.

I said, last week, that all of this--from all sides--is just conjecture and speculation about what we can or cannot afford to do. The underlying principle should be that no matter what we can or cannot do...we NEED to be smart with the dough and think about this year and the next.

Mussop, and I'll say it again, has a smart idea when he says "Just because we CAN afford to re-sign someone doesn't mean that we SHOULD." Now, as to which guys the Texans decide are essential and which are not? I think that's going to shake itself out according to how the agents of all those players decide to negotiate with the Texans. That's when guys you thought were "sure things" might be headed to the exit, and that's going to determine how the dominos fall for the remainder of players in the pool.

I think that's about as simplistic as it can get.
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Old 03-03-2012   #96
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

Tell me if I'm wrong?

Basically the Texans can let MW walk and reup all of the 2012 and 2013 potential FA's. As well as maybe signing 1 of the following FA's WR/NT/CB/OLB? As well as being a player when the cap goes up before the 2013 season.

Sign me up for this.

MW is a great player, but I'm keeping this team together and hopefully adding more pieces in the draft. I wonder how much of the MW love is because he was the 1st pick the Texans got right? (VY, Bush)

You do know MW wasn't the best DL in that draft. That distinction belongs to Ngata.
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Old 03-03-2012   #97
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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
So dale, I don't know the texans because I can spek about every team in the league? My sig says it all because that's me. I record the texans every week and I also record and watch a lot of teams. Just because I talk or give my review of a team not named the texans has 0 to do with our disagreements. I'm objective and u think mario is average. I. Think mario is an elite player playing an elite position. You think he's easily replaceable. Because of the way the defense played without him. That's our disagreement. If he leaves because he just wants to leave, so be it. I think the texans will offer him a very attractive deal.

You won't like it and neither will some of the others that follow the way you think. Mario, despite his injuries, most of which he played through, is an elite talent and player. Look around the league and attempt to find a guy who can rush and play the run. Look at the defenses he's played wth when the next leding pass rusher had 2 sack and a secondary leaving windows wide open like its summertime. All those game changers and elite guys u mention always had others. One yr with wade in dallas, they led the league in sacks. In that season,ellis had 10, james had 8,and ratliff had 8 to help ware. Mario has never had a guy with more than 5. Freeney has always had mathis.when allen was in kc, hali was getting 8 sacks. Allen goes to minny, williams wall pushing the pocket in the qbs face. Merriman? In sd, casillas on the dl had 8 sacks along with sean phillips. I could continue, but just like in the other thread, ur mind is made up. So, I guess we will see soon enough.
I apologize for the way my earlier post was worded. It was not my intent to label you, though I clearly did. (Thank you, GP, for pointing that out to me)


You are correct that we are not going to agree. I don't care about sack totals from individuals. Whether Mario would end up with 8 sacks or 20 is insignificant to me. I'm only concerned about the end product of the defense. The one thing I learned last year is that the defense can be great without Mario. While it is very likely that it would be great with him as well, it has never happened for any length of time in six seasons. Does that mean he's not an excellent player? no. Does that mean it seems imprudent for the Texans to pay him a significant chunk of their cap? I think so.

As an aside to the central issue, I happen to believe Mario's motor is inconsistent. I don't think that is true of the other talent on defense. As a fan, I don't like it. Also, I think the disparity in his hustle and that of others could lead to some problems on the team. I know I'm in the minority with this opinion. I have supplied evidence to support it. Many disagree. That's fine.

Understand, though, I was thrilled with the Mario draft pick. I have been a fan throughout his career until I began noticing this trend midway through the 2009 season. Watching him next to Antonio Smith the past couple years is what first caught my eye... and then next to Cushing and J.J. Watt. I don't see the passion and violence in his effort that I see with the others. What I've noticed turned out to be legitimate as Mario was playing injured during the 2009 and 2010 seasons.

Entering the 2011 season healthy, I hoped to see better energy. When reviewing his play this season, I thought he still took too many players off and/or didn't play through the whistle. Maybe I'm hyper-sensitive to it because of that abortion of a season he had in 2010 due to his attempt to play through the sports hernia. But, that is the conclusion I have made.
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Old 03-03-2012   #98
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

Dale, I'm good bro, I'm hard to label or offend. I just remember 2009 all too well. I remember the way the team played after the poor start to finish strong defensively the year prior. I remember the team finsihing 13th and being one of the tops in forcing 3 and outs. The next yr, frank bush in hand,and they let dunta go and cut reeves. People on this board talked about how everything would be fine because we had this new rookie and a 2nd yr guy in quinn back there to take over. I remember telling people you have to replace talent with talent. Look what happened. The texans had one of the worse defenses possible and bush got fired. Ryans goes down,cushing didn't play well and it was a disaster.

Fast forward to now and there is a lot of conjecture the same way. Mario is a much better player and people think reed and barwin can replace mario. I like barwin a lot more than reed. Reed is a effort guy who will get sacks either on blown assignments or on qb holding the ball too long. Thing is, 1 injury to either barwin,reed,watts,or smith and the wheels will come off of this defense. The chargers had great defenses at times when merriman was out, but once he never regained his form and left,their defense has never been the same. If they lose mario, their 1st rd pick will be a rush end/olb, book it. I don't have a problem with that if that's what happen. If the resign mario, their 1st pick might be a wr or 5 tech, don't have a problem with that either. Its quiet and that's a good thing. Their working on it and that's good. I know we will know before free agency.
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Old 03-03-2012   #99
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
I apologize for the way my earlier post was worded. It was not my intent to label you, though I clearly did.
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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
Dale, I'm good bro...


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Old 03-03-2012   #100
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
Dale, I'm good bro, I'm hard to label or offend. I just remember 2009 all too well. I remember the way the team played after the poor start to finish strong defensively the year prior. I remember the team finsihing 13th and being one of the tops in forcing 3 and outs. The next yr, frank bush in hand,and they let dunta go and cut reeves. People on this board talked about how everything would be fine because we had this new rookie and a 2nd yr guy in quinn back there to take over. I remember telling people you have to replace talent with talent. Look what happened. The texans had one of the worse defenses possible and bush got fired. Ryans goes down,cushing didn't play well and it was a disaster.

Fast forward to now and there is a lot of conjecture the same way. Mario is a much better player and people think reed and barwin can replace mario. I like barwin a lot more than reed. Reed is a effort guy who will get sacks either on blown assignments or on qb holding the ball too long. Thing is, 1 injury to either barwin,reed,watts,or smith and the wheels will come off of this defense. The chargers had great defenses at times when merriman was out, but once he never regained his form and left,their defense has never been the same. If they lose mario, their 1st rd pick will be a rush end/olb, book it. I don't have a problem with that if that's what happen. If the resign mario, their 1st pick might be a wr or 5 tech, don't have a problem with that either. Its quiet and that's a good thing. Their working on it and that's good. I know we will know before free agency.
I agree with your assessment of Reed, though I do have hope that he will continue to develop. I'm not excited about Reed's ability to replace Mario. Perhaps I've not been clear about that. I do think that Reed and Barwin's ability to drop into coverage (increasing disguise of the defense) does help to overcome the loss of a player like Mario. I simply don't trust Mario to stay on the field and stay motivated on the field. While that is clearly a knock on Mario, I would be extending this argument to all but a dozen players in the league. I simply do not believe in paying one player (other than a QB) the kind of money Mario is going to command. I've been very bullish on Rick Smith also and trust him to continue to add talent to the team.
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