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Old 03-02-2012   #61
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
I see the validity of both sides of this argument.

On one hand, you can save money and use it to re-sign everyone and/or go after FA players to try and upgrade other positions like we did on CB and S last off-season.

On the other hand, you can retain Mario and re-sign everyone and/or cut some of the guys instead of re-signing them.
No GP, this thinking is false. That's all I'm arguing.

I don't care if you want Mario here or not.... just be honest about it (not you in particular).

Kirwan's article shows you how we can sign our big three plus or draft picks by restructuring contracts. You don't lose anyone. Everyone that was on "this great" team last year is on it next year, just by restructuring contracts.

Then you've got the $18M you freed up by signing Mario to a long term deal.

That's 53 players, plus your draft picks & 18M to chase whoever you want.

So if you're going to sign more players to the roster, you're going to have to cut someone, whether now or before the end of TC.

Some guys (who I think we can afford to lose) are going to create more cap space..... Jacoby, Walter, Ward, Leinart.......

Then you've still got two big contracts that you can restructure, Schaub & Demeco.

Money is not an issue. Money is not the issue. They just don't want Mario here.
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Old 03-02-2012   #62
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

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Of course it could happen.... I'd only comment on why it shouldn't happen....

because he's not worth it. Notice that there is no comment on how Schaub, Quin, Barwin, Brown get extended... not to mention who/how we replace Cody and Jones
I equate this to somebody being married to a really hot wife. Everybody else sees her around with her husband and thinks about how lucky he is, but he sees her in the morning, and when she's not looking the best and is intimately aware of her shortcomings and thinks she's not worth it.

"How we replace Cody and Jones" Because there's two pieces of the puzzle we'd all rather have than Mario Williams yes. And Connor Barwin is certainly going to take a great deal for the Texans because. . .

Literally the only player I'm worried about not being able to re-sign because Mario is taking a large chunk of the cap (Which if the contract guy/GM isn't an idiot, he wouldn't sign Mario to a deal like that anyway) is Duane Brown.
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Old 03-02-2012   #63
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

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You're both missing the point.

We don't have to cut anyone off the team. By restructuring Jjo, Antonio, OD, & Andre, we can free up the money to sign our big three (Myers, Foster, & Mario) plus our draft picks.

Then with the money you free up by dropping Mario's 2011 salary, that frees up $18M. You want Colston, you want Zuttah, what's stopping you? Sign them both for part of that $18M, you'll still have some left in reserve, unless you're saying those two guys are going to cost us more than Mario, Foster, Myers, & our draft picks.

& if you still need more money, restructure Matt Schaub & Demeco Ryans.

We've still got 53 men on this roster doing it this way, plus the two guys Mussop mentioned.

You've got to cut someone, just to get to 53.

Are you saying you want to cut Mario just for a roster spot? That's stupid.

I don't think this guy is stupid enough to write an article and forget to subtract the current salaries coming off the books....pretty sure the 4 plus million is what we have NOW with those contracts off the book
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Old 03-02-2012   #64
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

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I don't think this guy is stupid enough to write an article and forget to subtract the current salaries coming off the books....pretty sure the 4 plus million is what we have NOW with those contracts off the book
Pretty sure you are wrong on that one.
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Old 03-02-2012   #65
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

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I don't think this guy is stupid enough to write an article and forget to subtract the current salaries coming off the books....pretty sure the 4 plus million is what we have NOW with those contracts off the book
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Originally Posted by b0ng View Post
Pretty sure you are wrong on that one.
Yeah I'm pretty sure he's wrong too. We have 17 FAs, and only 12 roster spots (because 5 were IR replacements). If $4 million is with 17 FAs off the books then we only have $300k per player to spend (4m/12) which is LESS than the rookie minimum. League minimum on avg is around $600k. If you are right then we will have to cut more than just Mario (since according to you he and 16 other salaries put us at only $4 million under and we still have 12 roster spots to fill).

Free Agency does not start until March 13th, which is the 1st day of the new league year. Therefore the salaries from last year cannot be off the books because the 2011 season has not ended yet.
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Old 03-02-2012   #66
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

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Originally Posted by cbs1507 View Post
Yeah I'm pretty sure he's wrong too. We have 17 FAs, and only 12 roster spots (because 5 were IR replacements). If $4 million is with 17 FAs off the books then we only have $300k per player to spend (4m/12) which is LESS than the rookie minimum. League minimum on avg is around $600k. If you are right then we will have to cut more than just Mario.

Free Agency does not start until March 13th, which is the 1st day of the new league year. Therefore the salaries from last year cannot be off the books because the 2011 season has not ended yet.
Well maybe we're all freaking about money for no reason.....screw it, sign every one on our team and then go after V Jackson or P Garcon......DO IT
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Old 03-02-2012   #67
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

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No GP, this thinking is false. That's all I'm arguing.

I don't care if you want Mario here or not.... just be honest about it (not you in particular).

Kirwan's article shows you how we can sign our big three plus or draft picks by restructuring contracts. You don't lose anyone. Everyone that was on "this great" team last year is on it next year, just by restructuring contracts.

Then you've got the $18M you freed up by signing Mario to a long term deal.

That's 53 players, plus your draft picks & 18M to chase whoever you want.

So if you're going to sign more players to the roster, you're going to have to cut someone, whether now or before the end of TC.

Some guys (who I think we can afford to lose) are going to create more cap space..... Jacoby, Walter, Ward, Leinart.......

Then you've still got two big contracts that you can restructure, Schaub & Demeco.

Money is not an issue. Money is not the issue. They just don't want Mario here.
Well, Mario is not transgressing against "them" that you speak of. He didn't take anything from the them. He didn't pee in their cereal this morning. I don't think we need to say the them have it out for Mario as some sort of personal vendetta the them have against Mario. I don't like how message boards tend to get that way--The "them" vs. the "they." Just my two cents on it.

The them, IMO, just happen to think that Mario is not worth the money. It's a touchy subject, as evidenced by the lengths of talks that have centered upon Mario on these boards for years. The success of the Texans defense in 2011, with the emergence of two rookies (Reed & Watt) has further complicated or exacerbated the "discussion." The water is muddied like never before.

I don't think there is a faulty logic here, on either side. The Texans can do a myriad of things if they want. That's what matters, IMO. The them you speak of does not matter. The they don't matter, either. I do not matter. You do not matter. In all honestly, there are multiple scenarios that can shake down. The possibilities are exhausting.

Some of "them" don't see the necessity of Mario. Some think it's a luxury and not a need. I can see why. Some think you do what you can and you try like hell to make him a part of this defense for years to come. I can see why, as well. I do like the philosophy mussop posited that "Just because it can be done does not mean you do it." That's a good ethical stance to take in life, let alone in the world of sports entertainment such as an NFL team managing its resources.

But we could all be surprised at how things shake down. Agents are a piece of this ingredients list that are vital. They can guide their players to do things that screw other things up. Never underestimate the possibility that things could get weird and alter plans on all fronts. We just won't know until it all unfolds before us. This much we can all agree upon.
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Old 03-02-2012   #68
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

I can't foresee a world where at least 2 or 3 teams WON'T throw stupid crazy cash at Mario and make it hard on him to choose to stay in Houston for less.

And I can't foresee a world where no team attempts to sign Foster to an offer sheet and thinks they can steal away a great RB for a first rounder and a lot of cap space they have this year.

Both of those, IMO, are very real possibilities. At that point, then umm...yeah, Texans better have some stuff figured out and ready to make their choice.

Just like they had to exit the Aso sweepstakes last year, and go grab a CB and a S instead...they might (key word is "might") have to make a choice here.

What team would NOT try to upset our apple cart? We wanted this level of fame and notoriety, we are getting it! Teams have painted bulls eyes on our chests. One is labeled Mario and the other is Foster.

The stakes are high. I feel confident that McNair is not a noob owner now. I feel certain that he and Rick got this. I really do.

EDIT: I also happen to think that it's possible that agents for both Mario AND Foster are not signing and maybe not even entertaining Texans offers yet...they're going to sit and wait and see what another team serves up on March 13. That franchise tag might get slapped on Foster March 12, folks. Then the Texans can have all of 2012 to work the long-term deal. Bet you donuts to dollars that Foster's agent is having him hold off on any Texans offer until offer sheets come in for their consideration! You have to have something to leverage against the Texans, but the Texans can tag slap Foster and avoid that mess. Yeah, I bet Foster gets tagged. I said it on March 2 at 1:07 p.m.
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Old 03-02-2012   #69
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

Losing Mario to a gigantic contract is one thing, but letting Arian Foster get away from our system should be more than enough to fire the **** out of Rick Smith.
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Old 03-02-2012   #70
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

I really doubt we let AF go. Sure we can tender him, but if we honestly feel like he will get away, franchising him is still an option. This weekend will be HUGE for this team. We better sign one of the 3 or come Monday we will be in a TERRIBLE spot.

Id list them in this order of IMPORTANCE

Foster
Myers
Mario


Lets see everyone else's priorities.....
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Old 03-02-2012   #71
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

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Losing Mario to a gigantic contract is one thing, but letting Arian Foster get away from our system should be more than enough to fire the **** out of Rick Smith.
seriously doubt foster goes anywhere...in fact, im not worried about him leaving this year at all. Mario on the other hand....if someone offers him stupid money to leave & he takes it..fine. What i dont ant to happen is he bolts outta here & there is no report of any offer made to him...basically it would be the texans saying bye bye to him; i think he's worth trying to pursue to a point..10 - 12 mil is my point.
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Old 03-02-2012   #72
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EDIT: I also happen to think that it's possible that agents for both Mario AND Foster are not signing and maybe not even entertaining Texans offers yet...they're going to sit and wait and see what another team serves up on March 13. That franchise tag might get slapped on Foster March 12, folks. Then the Texans can have all of 2012 to work the long-term deal. Bet you donuts to dollars that Foster's agent is having him hold off on any Texans offer until offer sheets come in for their consideration! You have to have something to leverage against the Texans, but the Texans can tag slap Foster and avoid that mess. Yeah, I bet Foster gets tagged. I said it on March 2 at 1:07 p.m.
If they are going to franchise Foster the deadline is actually March 5th (Monday) not March 13th. So we better tag him quick if we had plans on it. Mario made a little over $18 million last year. We could use about $7.7 million of it for Foster's tag number, then try to use the rest (about $11 million) to offer to Mario. The other guys can be sign by restructuring a few contracts because they will be much cheaper than these 2.
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Old 03-02-2012   #73
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

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I really doubt we let AF go. Sure we can tender him, but if we honestly feel like he will get away, franchising him is still an option. This weekend will be HUGE for this team. We better sign one of the 3 or come Monday we will be in a TERRIBLE spot.

Id list them in this order of IMPORTANCE

Foster
Myers
Mario


Lets see everyone else's priorities.....
I used to think it was Mario, Myers, Foster, being that Foster is a restricted FA. My thinking is we have to sign the unrestricted guys before FA. Once they get to open waters, the money get's stupid & I personally wouldn't want to get into that bidding war..... not even for our own FAs.

Now, same thing applies to Foster. If he gets to test the waters, we'll have to match some ridiculous number or let him go.

Monday is the deadline to put the tag on. So Foster is my first priority. If we don't have a deal in place, I'm franchising him to keep him from talking to other teams. Then I'll try to get him signed before OTAs.

Then Mario. I want to make him a good faith offer before March 13. If he doesn't take it, I'm fine with that, but I'll go onto plan B that doesn't include Mario Williams. I'm not getting into a bidding war with deep-pocketed, desperate teams.

Then Myers. Yes, he's the center-piece of the OL. I do not want to lose him. But, how bad can the market drive up his price? I'll make him an offer as well, before March 13. If he takes it great, if he doesn't, I plan on going on without him, but I'll let him know my deal still stands if he chooses to come back.
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Old 03-02-2012   #74
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

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So?? Our "best" NT, likely isn't as good as somebody we can get in the draft. We've seen the best that Cody can do, and he's nowhere near top-tier talent in the league at his position. Jacoby has been given his shot, I have ZERO issue with cutting him and attempting to resign him for less. If somebody else wants to pay that kinda $$ for him, that's fine. I understand you don't want to overpay for Mario, that's fine & I agree, but lets not make Cody/Jacoby out to be players they're not.

That's only true if you're planning on hiring a FA receiver, otherwise, rookie pool is a different beast altogether.
Look. I would love to see Jacoby get cut. However, I want him cut because the Texans have upgraded the WR position, not further downgraded it in order to fit Mario's monster contract into the cap.

I don't want the starting NT for a great defense to be cut in his prime because he's making $2.5 million. Sorry but that is crazy! Not only does it not make sense from a football standpoint, but those are the kinds of moves that can divide a locker room. How do you think those players that were part of the 2011 defense going to feel when they are all asked to take cuts in pay so Mario can be given a contract near $100 million? I don't think it is a poplular move. Think about the precedent that sets moving forward as an organization.
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Old 03-02-2012   #75
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Look. I would love to see Jacoby get cut. However, I want him cut because the Texans have upgraded the WR position, not further downgraded it in order to fit Mario's monster contract into the cap.

I don't want the starting NT for a great defense to be cut in his prime because he's making $2.5 million. Sorry but that is crazy! Not only does it not make sense from a football standpoint, but those are the kinds of moves that can divide a locker room. How do you think those players that were part of the 2011 defense going to feel when they are all asked to take cuts in pay so Mario can be given a contract near $100 million? I don't think it is a poplular move. Think about the precedent that sets moving forward as an organization.
I think they'll think it sucks. But....that's part of life in the NFL. If players spent all their time thinking about what everyone else was making, they'd have stopped playing together long ago. The players KNOW that Mario is "the stud". That said, you tread very carefully when asking folks like AJ/Schaub to restructure.

As for Cody, we'll agree to disagree...in my view he's not some sort of lynchpin, he's a worker bee.
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Old 03-02-2012   #76
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

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Were you the guy talking about his wedding coming up?

No, that's jermaine, I'm eric from houston.
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Old 03-02-2012   #77
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/clubhouse?team=stl

Also,I hear people talking about meyers, another player they can't franchise. A problem is the last contract signed, brown, got 5yr 35m with 20m guarantee and 24m in the 1st 2 yrs. Are the texans ready to do a deal like that for meyers?
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Old 03-02-2012   #78
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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/clubhouse?team=stl

Also,I hear people talking about meyers, another player they can't franchise. A problem is the last contract signed, brown, got 5yr 35m with 20m guarantee and 24m in the 1st 2 yrs. Are the texans ready to do a deal like that for meyers?
I can't imagine a center getting a contract that big.

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Old 03-02-2012   #79
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
No, that's jermaine, I'm eric from houston.
Ohh, Ok. I have heard you also. He also talked to jermaine for a bit about signing Mario and Arian.
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Old 03-02-2012   #80
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Default Re: Pat Kirwan article

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
No, that's jermaine, I'm eric from houston.
Ahh, yes. I've heard you call the show for years. You are a knowledge football fan but a mild Texan fan. This explains a lot of our differences. You haven't been emotionally invested in this franchise the way some of us have been... which is fine. But, it does explain some of the differences in perspectives.

Also, Kirwan has never had much of a handle on the Texans. Because he has no inside contacts within the organization, he has few insights on it, IMO. I remember that late in 2009 he argued rather strongly that the Cincinnati Bengals were a much more talented team than the Texans and had a brighter future. That was silliness and is indicative of his lack of knowledge concerning the Texans.
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