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View Poll Results: What's Mario worth.... at most
> $15M/yr 2 3.33%
$10M-$15M/yr 38 63.33%
< $10M/yr 6 10.00%
I don't care as long as it's cap friendly for the first 3 years 14 23.33%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-26-2012   #61
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
I realize all players, for one reason or another, don't go 100% every play of their careers. However, Mario's motor idles lower than many. As I've said, that doesn't make him a bad player. However, it also, IMO, precludes him from being the kind of leader of a defense that good teams should want.
It makes absolutely no sense that Wade would want a player like that, much less want to pay him the amount of money that would make him the focal point of our pass rush.

Why can't Wade see what you see, it should be obvious. If he dogs it so much during a game, I can't imagine what he's like in practice.
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Old 02-26-2012   #62
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

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It makes absolutely no sense that Wade would want a player like that, much less want to pay him the amount of money that would make him the focal point of our pass rush.

Why can't Wade see what you see, it should be obvious. If he dogs it so much during a game, I can't imagine what he's like in practice.
How do you know Wade, or anybody with the Texan's FO, truly wants Mario and isn't just saying the PC things that are expected of them? How do you know that Mario really does want to stay with the Texans and isn't just doing the same? Since we have a little tape to view of MW at WOLB, I'm thinking Wade probably wants him back...if the price is right, but not at any cost. For that matter, I haven't seen anyone say they don't want Mario back period. A lot of people just don't want to see the team overpay to keep him and a lot of those people, myself included, just don;t see it as being realistic to bring him back.
Looking at the stats I posted a bit earlier, Mario just isn't worth paying more than $10M a year-ish. Whether he has a high motor, low motor or no motor, he hasn't produced at the same level as truly elite passrushers in this league have.
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Old 02-26-2012   #63
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

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It makes absolutely no sense that Wade would want a player like that, much less want to pay him the amount of money that would make him the focal point of our pass rush.

Why can't Wade see what you see, it should be obvious. If he dogs it so much during a game, I can't imagine what he's like in practice.
What do you expect them to say? "We think Mario is overrated and we wouldn't pay him a bag of rusty nails."? It is in the Texans' best interest to be respectful of their players coming and going. The way they treat all players is a major reason why Houston has become an attractive destination. Kubiak and Smith will avoid criticizing Mario regardless of the backlash after they let him go. It is how they operate. If I'm wrong, the Texans will bring Mario back. I don't think I'm wrong. I don't think the Texans have any intention to pay Mario anywhere near his market value.
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Old 02-26-2012   #64
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

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A few things:

Despite the reality that Demarcus Ware is vastly more productive than Mario, I wouldn't pay him a contract that the market would demand either.


Regarding Freeney: I think he was struggling through motivation... learning to play in the midst of his team being a loser. Normally, he is a 100% effort guy.

** All the Mario video I selected is at a point in time when the game is still very much in doubt. And, there were many other plays to highlight. Mario's effort after the bye in 2010 was horrible throughout the season until he ended it on the IR. I'm not incuding videos of those games because he was trying to play injured. Considering I only had a catalog of three games from this year (we don't have the INDY game recorded), that is a lot of plays.


I realize all players, for one reason or another, don't go 100% every play of their careers. However, Mario's motor idles lower than many. As I've said, that doesn't make him a bad player. However, it also, IMO, precludes him from being the kind of leader of a defense that good teams should want.
Lol... you're just hoping from 1 foot to the next.....every time your theories are confronted head on with evidence to the contrary, you go to another concocted overstated point...face it dude, the facts don't back up your opnion no matter how much spin you try to use......Its pathetic.

Funny how you make excuses for Dwight Freeney. "its ok that he gave up b/c his team is normally good..he gave up b/c his team sucks.." Well guess what...Mario's teams & defenses have always sucked since he's been in the league!!!! You try to present your points as if they can stand alone & they can't.

i wont waste anymore time on you or anyone else with agendas.
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Old 02-26-2012   #65
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

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Lol... you're just hoping from 1 foot to the next.....every time your theories are confronted head on with evidence to the contrary, you go to another concocted overstated point...face it dude, the facts don't back up your opnion no matter how much spin you try to use......Its pathetic.

i wont waste anymore time on you or anyone else with agendas.

My only agenda is wanting the Texans to be very good for a long time. As I have said many times, I'm willing to own the possibility that some of my conclusions are incorrect. But, I can't stand it when people accuse me of an alterior motive simply because I disagree with them.

I show video evidence of a dozen plays (from September of 2011) illustrating my perception that Mario's effort isn't good enough to command the money he will be asking for. I could've shown more. Your response is to show a player calling out Freeney in the midst of a 2-14 season, a play from James Harrison who was trying to play through a broken eye socket, and a play or two from Ware and Jared Allen where they aren't dominating.... Somehow, that is supposed to settle all arguments about Mario's level of consistent effort? Umm, sorry that I disagree with you but it doesn't make me a closet Vince Young lunatic.
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Old 02-26-2012   #66
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
My only agenda is wanting the Texans to be very good for a long time. As I have said many times, I'm willing to own the possibility that some of my conclusions are incorrect. But, I can't stand it when people accuse me of an alterior motive simply because I disagree with them.

I show video evidence of a dozen plays (from September of 2011) illustrating my perception that Mario's effort isn't good enough to command the money he will be asking for. I could've shown more. Your response is to show a player calling out Freeney in the midst of a 2-14 season, a play from James Harrison who was trying to play through a broken eye socket, and a play or two from Ware and Jared Allen where they aren't dominating.... Somehow, that is supposed to settle all arguments about Mario's level of consistent effort? Umm, sorry that I disagree with you but it doesn't make me a closet Vince Young lunatic.
1st of all, it was more than 1 or 2 plays regarding Ware..somebody else compiled that..not me. Regardless,

like you, i could've shown more clips of those guys doing the exact same things that you seemed to think is some tell-tell about mario. I don't have access to film & all that crap..what i posted was just something i found on the internet in 10-15 minutes through game highlights. But up until a few posts ago, you seemed to want to ignore the fact that other players who are better or at least comparable to Mario do the exact same crap.

Look at this very post i quoted..."james harrison who was trying to play through a broken eye socket.." The post above this one talking about dwight freeney. Basically saying "his team sucked that's why." well guess what Mario's teams have always sucked..guess that's on him too then huh? a few posts before this in this thread or the other going you presented some stat about yards given up with mario vs. without him...presenting it as if Mario was the guy holding the defense back all along....completely ignoring other major factors that also contributed to your stat. It's transparent & as i said in the previous post, pathetic. You're willing to make excuses for the above mentioned guys but are unwilling to give credit to mario for playing through injuries calling him injury prone or the fact that he's been at a disadvantage since he came into the league having been led by & playing with guys on defense 1/2 of which probably aren't even in the league anymore or at base minimum have been demoted.

You want people to not think you don't have agenda, present all factors..not just those that seemingly back up your argument.


Intelligent and honest discussion can't take place when 1 party isn't willing to acknowledge all things involved....& you have proven over...& over....& over that you clearly aren't willing to do that. what else is one to think when you keep doing this?
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Old 02-26-2012   #67
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

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1st of all, it was more than 1 or 2 plays regarding Ware..somebody else compiled that..not me. Regardless,

like you, i could've shown more clips of those guys doing the exact same things that you seemed to think is some tell-tell about mario. I don't have access to film & all that crap..what i posted was just something i found on the internet in 10-15 minutes through game highlights. But up until a few posts ago, you seemed to want to ignore the fact that other players who are better or at least comparable to Mario do the exact same crap.

Look at this very post i quoted..."james harrison who was trying to play through a broken eye socket.." The post above this one talking about dwight freeney. Basically saying "his team sucked that's why." well guess what Mario's teams have always sucked..guess that's on him too then huh? a few posts before this in this thread or the other going you presented some stat about yards given up with mario vs. without him...presenting it as if Mario was the guy holding the defense back all along....completely ignoring other major factors that also contributed to your stat. It's transparent & as i said in the previous post, pathetic. You're willing to make excuses for the above mentioned guys but are unwilling to give credit to mario for playing through injuries calling him injury prone or the fact that he's been at a disadvantage since he came into the league having been led by & playing with guys on defense 1/2 of which probably aren't even in the league anymore or at base minimum have been demoted.

You want people to not think you don't have agenda, present all factors..not just those that seemingly back up your argument.


Intelligent and honest discussion can't take place when 1 party isn't willing to acknowledge all things involved....& you have proven over...& over....& over that you clearly aren't willing to do that. what else is one to think when you keep doing this?
If MW had anywhere near the stats that Ware or Allen have, no one would care if he took some plays off.
BTW, wouldn't MW continually playing through injuries be a pretty good indicator that he's injury prone? That honest argument goes both ways...
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Old 02-26-2012   #68
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

I'm also in the camp that Mario Williams has a highly questionable motor.. When we stuck players like Antonio Smith, Cushing, Barwin, and J.J. Watt around him it only further illustrated how much he dogs it. The guy doesn't dominate a game the way a player with his ability should and that's why some people aren't comfortable with blowing all of our cap space on him. It's not hate... it's just a preference to spend the money elsewhere.
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Old 02-26-2012   #69
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

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If MW had anywhere near the stats that Ware or Allen have, no one would care if he took some plays off.
BTW, wouldn't MW continually playing through injuries be a pretty good indicator that he's injury prone? That honest argument goes both ways...
You could spin it that way yes...but as i & others have said in other posts, everyone is playing through injuries at some point throughout the season. I've heard Eric Winston allude to this on 610 a few times..the nature of the game dictates that you'll be beat up by midseason.

James Harrision has been dealing with back issues for 2 straight years now...he still plays though...If you combine what happened to him last year with the eye socket..does that then make him injury prone?

We all know about dwight freeney & how he's always nicked up. Injuries basically made him a non factor in the SB....he still played though.

It seems that ben rothlisberger these days is dealing with something...he still plays though.

Jeremy Maclin...

So if you take this into account, then the question becomes at what point do you begin to cross the line from a person just not being 100% to them being injury prone if everyone in the league is nicked up at 1 point or another in the season?.. & the only logical answer to that question is when they have to miss games. & so far, 2011 is the only year Mario has missed significant time due to an injury. So imo, you can't even really call him that.
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Old 02-26-2012   #70
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

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You could spin it that way yes...but as i & others have said in other posts, everyone is playing through injuries at some point throughout the season. I've heard Eric Winston allude to this on 610 a few times..the nature of the game dictates that you'll be beat up by midseason.

James Harrision has been dealing with back issues for 2 straight years now...he still plays though...If you combine what happened to him last year with the eye socket..does that then make him injury prone?

We all know about dwight freeney & how he's always nicked up. Injuries basically made him a non factor in the SB....he still played though.

It seems that ben rothlisberger these days is dealing with something...he still plays though.

Jeremy Maclin...

So if you take this into account, then the question becomes at what point do you begin to cross the line from a person just not being 100% to them being injury prone if everyone in the league is nicked up at 1 point or another in the season?.. & the only logical answer to that question is when they have to miss games. & so far, 2011 is the only year Mario has missed significant time due to an injury. So imo, you can't even really call him that.
Yes, every player gets nicked up during the season, but sports hernias, plantar fasciitis, groin injuries and, obviously, a torn pec are very performance limiting injuries. I've never questioned MW's toughness but was he really helping the team by playing through these injuries? Considering what we had around him, except for last season, I really don't know.
If MW's injuries aren't negatively impacting his game, then it must be an effort problem. Whatever the reason, he simply doesn't have the numbers
that the truly elite passrushers have. By all appearances, he has the talent, but through 6 seasons, he's not even close stats-wise. Stats, especially at a premium position like his, do matter.
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Old 02-26-2012   #71
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

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Yes, every player gets nicked up during the season, but sports hernias, plantar fasciitis, groin injuries and, obviously, a torn pec are very performance limiting injuries. I've never questioned MW's toughness but was he really helping the team by playing through these injuries? Considering what we had around him, except for last season, I really don't know.
If MW's injuries aren't negatively impacting his game, then it must be an effort problem. Whatever the reason, he simply doesn't have the numbers
that the truly elite passrushers have. By all appearances, he has the talent, but through 6 seasons, he's not even close stats-wise. Stats, especially at a premium position like his, do matter.

Or... coaching & talent around him

Demarcus Ware has really been the only 1 man wrecking crew..& even then you can still say that he had wade calling the shots for the majority of his career & a offense that can/could put up points.

jared Allen had statistically 2 of his best seasons playing alongside the williams boys & edwards. He also had Favre & a decent offense. It's not coincidental that they were a top 10 defense those years nearly going to the SB...if not for Favre. This year without all that he still thrived but their defense was trash...so did he really make that much of a difference? Is he really worth it?

Dwight Freeney has never known life without Robert Mathis opposite of him & peyton manning & the offense racing out to 21 pt leads for him; thereby enabling him to pin his ears back......when he is in there on obvious passing situations.

Woodley...Dick Lebeau calling the shots with Harrison opposite him... with Hampton, Kiesel anchoring down the middle...Polamalu roaming secondary...dude had 2 different DPOY's on his team.

Mario? Lets see

Richard Smith....trash
Frank Bush....trash

Okoye
Travis Johnson
Jeff Zgonnina
Tim Bulman
thomas (DE from baltimore forget his name)
mark anderson

David Carr on offense for 1 year.

you get the picture.


Look, i'm not saying that we should blow our load on him...all i'm saying is that you can't look at his situation & compare it to other players & say its apples to apples. Bernard pollard on our defense in 2010.......disaster...with the ravens in 2011 with Lewis & Reed & Hgnata, he looked decent. You can't look at this stuff in a vacuum.
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Old 02-26-2012   #72
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

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1st of all, it was more than 1 or 2 plays regarding Ware..somebody else compiled that..not me. Regardless,

like you, i could've shown more clips of those guys doing the exact same things that you seemed to think is some tell-tell about mario. I don't have access to film & all that crap..what i posted was just something i found on the internet in 10-15 minutes through game highlights. But up until a few posts ago, you seemed to want to ignore the fact that other players who are better or at least comparable to Mario do the exact same crap.

Look at this very post i quoted..."james harrison who was trying to play through a broken eye socket.." The post above this one talking about dwight freeney. Basically saying "his team sucked that's why." well guess what Mario's teams have always sucked..guess that's on him too then huh? a few posts before this in this thread or the other going you presented some stat about yards given up with mario vs. without him...presenting it as if Mario was the guy holding the defense back all along....completely ignoring other major factors that also contributed to your stat. It's transparent & as i said in the previous post, pathetic. You're willing to make excuses for the above mentioned guys but are unwilling to give credit to mario for playing through injuries calling him injury prone or the fact that he's been at a disadvantage since he came into the league having been led by & playing with guys on defense 1/2 of which probably aren't even in the league anymore or at base minimum have been demoted.

You want people to not think you don't have agenda, present all factors..not just those that seemingly back up your argument.


Intelligent and honest discussion can't take place when 1 party isn't willing to acknowledge all things involved....& you have proven over...& over....& over that you clearly aren't willing to do that. what else is one to think when you keep doing this?

Harrison had just broken his eye socket an hour earlier and would be sidelined for weeks after that game.

I wasn't defending Freeney. I'm arguing that Freeney's effort issues are different than Mario's. Freeney was learning to play for a loser. I'm not judging it one way or another. Mario was giving mediocre effort when the Texans were 9-7 in 2009, after they began 2010 with a 4-2 record, and for most of the first month of their first playoff season. His two best seasons have been on mediocre to bad teams. Still, excluding 2006, Mario has always been part of a team with a good offense.

By the way, when has Jared Allen had great coaching? This year who were all the great players he played with while collecting 22 sacks?

Jared Allen, by the way, has had more sacks than Mario Williams every single season of Mario's career... and, 30+ more sacks than Mario over that period of time. He also has 5 more interceptions and dozen more forced fumbles. He is in the middle of a 6 year and $73 million contract which Mario will probably eclipse. How nuts is that? And, to my main point, how many championships has Allen's greatness led KC and Minnesota to?
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Old 02-26-2012   #73
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

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Harrison had just broken his eye socket an hour earlier and would be sidelined for weeks after that game.

I wasn't defending Freeney. I'm arguing that Freeney's effort issues are different than Mario's. Freeney was learning to play for a loser. I'm not judging it one way or another. Mario was giving mediocre effort when the Texans were 9-7 in 2009, after they began 2010 with a 4-2 record, and for most of the first month of their first playoff season. His two best seasons have been on mediocre to bad teams. Still, excluding 2006, Mario has always been part of a team with a good offense.

By the way, when has Jared Allen had great coaching? This year who were all the great players he played with while collecting 22 sacks?

Jared Allen, by the way, has had more sacks than Mario Williams every single season of Mario's career... and, 30+ more sacks than Mario over that period of time. He also has 5 more interceptions and dozen more forced fumbles. He is in the middle of a 6 year and $73 million contract which Mario will probably eclipse. How nuts is that? And, to my main point, how many championships has Allen's greatness led KC and Minnesota to?

leslie frazier was a highly regarded DC before he took over as HC...aside from that Allen's a man...still doesn't change what is though.

lol....now there's a difference for when guys are supposed to be giving maximum effort now? C'mon..

sorry buddy, you dont amass 12 & 14 sack seasons by having a motor that doesn't run on full throttle.

and up until last year 1st overall picks were coming into the league with 50 mil guaranteed what's your point? you know as well as i do that contracts are forever going up & depending on what year you're up in FA, & what other players that are available that plays your position you could really clean up....this is why your earlier proposed deal with conner barwin was even more absurd.
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Old 02-26-2012   #74
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
sorry buddy, you dont amass 12 & 14 sack seasons by having a motor that doesn't run on full throttle.

.
Comforting to know that Mario used to play with a motor in 2007 and 2008. I'm not sure what that has to do with 2012 though.
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