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View Poll Results: What's Mario worth.... at most
> $15M/yr 2 3.33%
$10M-$15M/yr 38 63.33%
< $10M/yr 6 10.00%
I don't care as long as it's cap friendly for the first 3 years 14 23.33%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-24-2012   #41
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

and doc:

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss
Let's think about this. The Steelers gave James Harrison the biggest LB contract in history at the time. Then just 3 years later signed Woodley to an even larger contract. So let's put an end to this "Steelers don't pay elite players."
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Originally Posted by DocBar View Post
Both players were superior to MW and are superior to MW.
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Old 02-24-2012   #42
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBar View Post
I conceded the Wallace argument to you in this thread or the other one. I simply don't know enough about Wallaces game to speak with any confidence.
As to the bolded, you must assume that Mario is going to stay healthy. Why is it that Jared Allen can pull off 22 sacks while on a team that sucked? They rarely, if ever, played with a big lead this past season. Do you think it's maybe because Allen goes all out every single snap and Mario doesn't?

T-skyss, i don't mean to derail your thread but i've got to get to the bottom of this as this board/city & its fans are the only people i ever hear complain about this dude's effort\ motor since he's been in the NFL.

I've yet to hear or see ANYTHING coming from this guys coaches
I've yet to hear or see ANYTHING coming from this guys teammates
I've yet to hear or see ANYTHING coming from this guys opponents

that say this guy dogs it every other play & to my knowledge, i haven't seen any of those trademark "dog" plays that we've all seen from the Randy Moss' and Albert Haynesworth's of the league.

The only thing i can come up with is that he's just 1 of those guys that doesn't look like he's out there playing as fast & hard as he can play...sort of out there making it look effortless if you will. That, his overall demeanor on the field & some of those concerns about his motor are still lingering from when he was drafted.

I'll admit, when you watch him play it doesn't look like he's out there playing as fast as he can play. but as we all know, looks can be decieving. I watch players like Jacoby on the tube & it looks like this guy isn't running fast at all.... but we know what his 40 time is. Guys like emmitt smith who didn't run blistering 40 times & didn't have animated running styles, but somehow always managed to pull away from guys in the open field are guys i'm refering to.

I for the life of me just can't understand why people keep bringing this up when there is very little to no evidence of this. At most, he's not out there "dogging it" anymore than 95% of players in the league. If anyone has any plays or anything to say otherwise please upload them, b/c i'd like to see how people are coming up with this.
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Old 02-24-2012   #43
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh texan View Post
Its too easy for people to use the way he got hurt this season against him, when, he was a big mis-match at the OLB position and finally looked capable of dominating games whilst he was still in learning mode.

I think the discovery of Brooks Reed only makes Mario better, he comes out and rests on some plays and comes back in fresh, I think thats a recipe for 20 sacks per year.

That makes him valuable to the team.

I also think Mario still makes those around him better, we saw a drop off in stats when Mario went down until the guys adjusted to him not being there.

Mario was demanding triple coverage, they were taking Tight Ends and Running Backs out of receiving routes because they were so scared of Mario, thats worth a boatload of cash, even if you have really good replacements around him, he is still a great option to have.

JMO
A drop off in what stats? After he went down, the defense, as a whole, was much better than it ever had been in almost every, single category. I'll take a couple fewer sacks from Antonio Smith if that means the Texans will be the best defense in the NFL. Individually, some stats were better without him and some were worse. However, for the defense as a whole (which is what I care about), the defense was better without him over a very long stretch of games. Clearly, that means he is not essential to the defense's success. I'm not sure how that point can be argued.
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Old 02-24-2012   #44
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
T-skyss, i don't mean to derail your thread but i've got to get to the bottom of this as this board/city & its fans are the only people i ever hear complain about this dude's effort\ motor since he's been in the NFL.

I've yet to hear or see ANYTHING coming from this guys coaches
I've yet to hear or see ANYTHING coming from this guys teammates
I've yet to hear or see ANYTHING coming from this guys opponents

that say this guy dogs it every other play & to my knowledge, i haven't seen any of those trademark "dog" plays that we've all seen from the Randy Moss' and Albert Haynesworth's of the league.

The only thing i can come up with is that he's just 1 of those guys that doesn't look like he's out there playing as fast & hard as he can play...sort of out there making it look effortless if you will. That, his overall demeanor on the field & some of those concerns about his motor are still lingering from when he was drafted.

I'll admit, when you watch him play it doesn't look like he's out there playing as fast as he can play. but as we all know, looks can be decieving. I watch players like Jacoby on the tube & it looks like this guy isn't running fast at all.... but we know what his 40 time is. Guys like emmitt smith who didn't run blistering 40 times & didn't have animated running styles, but somehow always managed to pull away from guys in the open field are guys i'm refering to.

I for the life of me just can't understand why people keep bringing this up when there is very little to no evidence of this. At most, he's not out there "dogging it" anymore than 95% of players in the league. If anyone has any plays or anything to say otherwise please upload them, b/c i'd like to see how people are coming up with this.
Stay tuned. We're editing a collection of them from his 4 games in 2011.

I find the argument that "he looks like he's not giving effort but he's so good it only appears that way" quite amusing. I suppose that will be the response to the 25 plays, or so, I will be highlighting.
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Old 02-24-2012   #45
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
T-skyss, i don't mean to derail your thread but i've got to get to the bottom of this as this board/city & its fans are the only people i ever hear complain about this dude's effort\ motor since he's been in the NFL.

I've yet to hear or see ANYTHING coming from this guys coaches
I've yet to hear or see ANYTHING coming from this guys teammates
I've yet to hear or see ANYTHING coming from this guys opponents

that say this guy dogs it every other play & to my knowledge, i haven't seen any of those trademark "dog" plays that we've all seen from the Randy Moss' and Albert Haynesworth's of the league.

The only thing i can come up with is that he's just 1 of those guys that doesn't look like he's out there playing as fast & hard as he can play...sort of out there making it look effortless if you will. That, his overall demeanor on the field & some of those concerns about his motor are still lingering from when he was drafted.

I'll admit, when you watch him play it doesn't look like he's out there playing as fast as he can play. but as we all know, looks can be decieving. I watch players like Jacoby on the tube & it looks like this guy isn't running fast at all.... but we know what his 40 time is. Guys like emmitt smith who didn't run blistering 40 times & didn't have animated running styles, but somehow always managed to pull away from guys in the open field are guys i'm refering to.

I for the life of me just can't understand why people keep bringing this up when there is very little to no evidence of this. At most, he's not out there "dogging it" anymore than 95% of players in the league. If anyone has any plays or anything to say otherwise please upload them, b/c i'd like to see how people are coming up with this.
OMG, you just opened a can o' worms...
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Old 02-25-2012   #46
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post

I for the life of me just can't understand why people keep bringing this up when there is very little to no evidence of this. At most, he's not out there "dogging it" anymore than 95% of players in the league. If anyone has any plays or anything to say otherwise please upload them, b/c i'd like to see how people are coming up with this.
Ask and ye shall receive:

The "Mario Lacks Consistent Effort and Intensity Video Argument via Youtube"
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Old 02-25-2012   #47
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

oops. duplicate.
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Old 02-25-2012   #48
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

I am sorry but you could tell by clip one it was nothing but a hack job. There has never been an OLB or DE who you couldn't compile a running out of the play (not that he was technically run out of the play there nor that being run out of a play is low effort) clip on. Heck Duane Brown did it to a lot of great ones last year. Let it go. The Texans are going to pursue Mario and either a deal will get done or it won't. Your preference to get rid of him is crystal clear.
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Old 02-25-2012   #49
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
I am sorry but you could tell by clip one it was nothing but a hack job. There has never been an OLB or DE who you couldn't compile a running out of the play (not that he was technically run out of the play there nor that being run out of a play is low effort) clip on. Heck Duane Brown did it to a lot of great ones last year. Let it go. The Texans are going to pursue Mario and either a deal will get done or it won't. Your preference to get rid of him is crystal clear.

I don't think I have hidden my preference that the Texans get rid of him. I'm glad it is crystal clear.

It's not the running out of the play that is the issue. It is that he stops while the play is going on, that he literally avoids contact on at least half those plays. Watch guys like 99, 94, 98, 56 on those plays and you will see better pursuit, more physicality, and better overall effort through the whistle. It's not as if it was difficult to find those plays. I could have done another 15 if I had wanted a 5 minute clip. I just used these to frame my argument. I realize a lot of you won't agree with it. Now, however, you know what I don't like about him in more detail. Feel free to strongly disagree... I can take it.
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Old 02-25-2012   #50
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

What is the question. If it is Mario's value to the team at this present time it is zero. Last year Mario's value was maybe a 1st and a 3rd or a couple 2nd round draft choices, now nothing. The Texans can get nothing for Mario at the present time. Now if it is what he is worth 100 % healthy for the full season including playoffs maybe $8-10 million. What would I pay him maybe $6 mill based on the health factor. Just my opinion.
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Old 02-25-2012   #51
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
dale, I'm going to have to apologize. I was wrong. You have exposed something I did not want to admit.

Your hatred of Mario Williams knows no bounds. I thought you honestly believed what you were saying. That your analysis of his play brought you to the conclusion you have shared with us (often).

But now, now I see that your opinion of Mario has changed the way you watch the game.

Instead of ever arguing the point with you again.... to save me from ever having to insult someone I used to enjoy sharing my time here on TT.com with... I'm just going to bow out.

What will be will be. Hopefully in the near future, we can find our selves on the same side of an arguement once again.
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Old 02-25-2012   #52
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

For me Mario is the most awkward FA signing we've ever had to deal with. You have a guy that has lead the team in sacks may times, was the first 'that guy' to hit the highlights reel from a Texans defense and who hasn't had the blessing of playing in a great defense year after year.

That said, you've also got the guy who has suffered a couple of injuries, will command huge money on the free market and is playing in a defense in the ascendancy with lots of names starting to break through.

For me, I don't want to over pay for Mario, and in my opinion, we shouldn't be entertaining paying him over $11-$12 million, as a rule of thumb figure (I admit here, I'm barely even a novice at cap knowledge - that said with the changes coming out of the CBA, I imagine only a few will be fully versed in what to expect at the moment). I say that, because looking at where the rest of the team are, that is what his value is to the team.

The idea of matching what other teams would pay for him does not sit well with me. Other teams are likely trying to pickup a guy to build a defense around - and there likely won't be any suitors who are Superbowl challenging ready. Mario (along with DeMeco) used to be our defense - and now he is 'just' a key part of it.

If Mario want to stay in Houston, now that a Championship contending team is in town, he will likely have to take a little less than another team will give him. For me, that is just how it is going to have to be.

The Mario deal for me is going to be circumstantial. If Foster and Mario get together, and both decide to take a little less money, in order to boost their chances of winning a ring, and building a perennial contender in Houston - that's brilliant. Two years ago, this was an easy decision - Mario would be resigned, whatever the cost - but today is a different story entirely.
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Old 02-25-2012   #53
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

Over the years I've noticed that anytime there's a pile or a scrum, Mario is usually standing over the pile, watching, arriving casually (fashionably?) late, instead of being in on the pile, getting down and dirty.

Looks like I'm not the only one to notice...
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Old 02-25-2012   #54
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

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Originally Posted by kwayshauntay View Post
Over the years I've noticed that anytime there's a pile or a scrum, Mario is usually standing over the pile, watching, arriving casually (fashionably?) late, instead of being in on the pile, getting down and dirty.

Looks like I'm not the only one to notice...
He's on ball watch in case of a fumble.
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Old 02-25-2012   #55
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

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He's on ball watch in case of a fumble.
um...I AM MAN!!! HEAR ME ROAR!!!meow?
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Old 02-26-2012   #56
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwayshauntay View Post
Over the years I've noticed that anytime there's a pile or a scrum, Mario is usually standing over the pile, watching, arriving casually (fashionably?) late, instead of being in on the pile, getting down and dirty.

Looks like I'm not the only one to notice...
I wonder who* caused those fumbles?

*Mario is the Texans all-time leader in forced fumbles.
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Old 02-26-2012   #57
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
Lol, if this is all you could come up with, your hatred for this dude knows no bounds. Like i said, his "dogging" it is no worse than 95% of the league....Here are a few nuggets for you.

Here are 2 different sets of videos from 2010 (in Wade's defense) & in 2011 where Demarcus Ware, the best pass rusher in the game, is doing many of the same things you're trying to knock Mario for; running himself out of plays, not giving full effort chasing guys down, avoiding contact etc...

http://bloggingthebeast.com/2011/11/...-the-run-game/

Here is philly TE Brent Celek basically calling out dwight freeney for quitting in a game..

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/11/09/ea...-give-up-on-t/


Check out Jared Allens great effort & intensity at the 2.18 - 2.30 mark of this video.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...ngs-highlights

& my personal favorite...check out James Harrison's hustle at the 1.44 mark when Arian broke the long run late in the game...dude just completely gives up....also note how Lamarr Woodley was completely out of position which allowed for Foster to bend it back in the 1st place...

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...ans-highlights


You don't have a clue & if you cared to pay attention to other players at other positions around the league you'd notice that every last single player in the league has these type of plays.
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Old 02-26-2012   #58
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
Lol, if this is all you could come up with, your hatred for this dude knows no bounds. Like i said, his "dogging" it is no worse than 95% of the league....Here are a few nuggets for you.

Here are 2 different sets of videos from 2010 (in Wade's defense) & in 2011 where Demarcus Ware, the best pass rusher in the game, is doing many of the same things you're trying to knock Mario for; running himself out of plays, not giving full effort chasing guys down, avoiding contact etc...

http://bloggingthebeast.com/2011/11/...-the-run-game/

Here is philly TE Brent Celek basically calling out dwight freeney for quitting in a game..

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/11/09/ea...-give-up-on-t/


Check out Jared Allens great effort & intensity at the 2.18 - 2.30 mark of this video.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...ngs-highlights

& my personal favorite...check out James Harrison's hustle at the 1.44 mark when Arian broke the long run late in the game...dude just completely gives up....also note how Lamarr Woodley was completely out of position which allowed for Foster to bend it back in the 1st place...

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...ans-highlights


You don't have a clue & if you cared to pay attention to other players at other positions around the league you'd notice that every last single player in the league has these type of plays.
One major difference is that Allen and Ware have had great, fantastic, stupendous seasons. Mario? Not so much.
Ware
Freeney
Allen
Peppers
Williams
Comparing Mario to Jared Allen or Demarcus Ware is just proving Dale Murphy's point. I threw peppers into the mix since MW's next contract will likely be based off of it. Peppers shows up all over the stat board. Mario? Not so much.
Sacks in 1st 6 seasons:
MW:53 to go with 0 INT's and 11 FF's.
Freeney:71 to go with 0 INT's and 31 FF's.
Ware:80 to go with 1 INT and 25 FF's.
Allen:72 to go with 2 INT's and 21 FF's.
Peppers:56 to go with 4 INT's and 20 FF's.
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Old 02-26-2012   #59
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
I wonder who* caused those fumbles?

*Mario is the Texans all-time leader in forced fumbles.
That's not saying a whole lot, Lucky.
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Old 02-26-2012   #60
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Default Re: What's Mario's Value...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
Lol, if this is all you could come up with, your hatred for this dude knows no bounds. Like i said, his "dogging" it is no worse than 95% of the league....Here are a few nuggets for you.

Here are 2 different sets of videos from 2010 (in Wade's defense) & in 2011 where Demarcus Ware, the best pass rusher in the game, is doing many of the same things you're trying to knock Mario for; running himself out of plays, not giving full effort chasing guys down, avoiding contact etc...

http://bloggingthebeast.com/2011/11/...-the-run-game/

Here is philly TE Brent Celek basically calling out dwight freeney for quitting in a game..

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/11/09/ea...-give-up-on-t/


Check out Jared Allens great effort & intensity at the 2.18 - 2.30 mark of this video.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...ngs-highlights

& my personal favorite...check out James Harrison's hustle at the 1.44 mark when Arian broke the long run late in the game...dude just completely gives up....also note how Lamarr Woodley was completely out of position which allowed for Foster to bend it back in the 1st place...

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...ans-highlights


You don't have a clue & if you cared to pay attention to other players at other positions around the league you'd notice that every last single player in the league has these type of plays.

A few things:

Despite the reality that Demarcus Ware is vastly more productive than Mario, I wouldn't pay him a contract that the market would demand either.

Regarding Freeney: I think he was struggling through motivation... learning to play in the midst of his team being a loser. Normally, he is a 100% effort guy.

** All the Mario video I selected is at a point in time when the game is still very much in doubt. And, there were many other plays to highlight. Mario's effort after the bye in 2010 was horrible throughout the season until he ended it on the IR. I'm not incuding videos of those games because he was trying to play injured. Considering I only had a catalog of three games from this year (we don't have the INDY game recorded), that is a lot of plays.

I realize all players, for one reason or another, don't go 100% every play of their careers. However, Mario's motor idles lower than many. As I've said, that doesn't make him a bad player. However, it also, IMO, precludes him from being the kind of leader of a defense that good teams should want.
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