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Old 02-07-2012   #101
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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That Steve Smith to Andre Johnson argument is pretty darn strong! It's certainly the most convincing defense of my main issue with Mario that I have heard. Thanks for that.

That being said, the central issue still comes down to paying huge money to a player that is not an essential part of the Texans' success. AJ's contract is roughly 1/2 of what Mario's will likely be but he is a much more important part of the Texans' offensive success than Mario is to the defensive success.
I will not argue with that.

If Mario cost too much, let him go.

But if we can get him back at a fair price that is reasonable to our cap then I'd bring him back.
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Old 02-07-2012   #102
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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I will not argue with that.

If Mario cost too much, let him go.

But if we can get him back at a fair price that is reasonable to our cap then I'd bring him back.
How much of a cap hit are you willing to suffer?
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Old 02-07-2012   #103
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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How much of a cap hit are you willing to suffer?
Thats a good question .... one I dont have an answer to mainly because I dont know what its going to take to get the other FA's taken care of.
Especially Foster tho they could just tender him I dont think that would be wise - When you tell a guy to "Do it again" and he does without complaint - Its time to pony up.


Last year MW cost $17.6m twards the cap - If you could get that number to ~$10-11m would that leave enough room to take care of Foster , Briesel , Myers and Dreessen as well as leaving space for draft picks?
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Old 02-07-2012   #104
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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Thats a good question .... one I dont have an answer to mainly because I dont know what its going to take to get the other FA's taken care of.
Especially Foster tho they could just tender him I dont think that would be wise - When you tell a guy to "Do it again" and he does without complaint - Its time to pony up.


Last year MW cost $17.6m twards the cap - If you could get that number to ~$10-11m would that leave enough room to take care of Foster , Briesel , Myers and Dreessen as well as leaving space for draft picks?
His cap number was around $19 million since Bob McNair said himself that Mario's tag was $22.9. Mario could command 11-13 million average salary. So if we could get that number down to 10 or 11 for next season (possibly lower) we could easily work deals for our other FAs. Foster could command 9-10 million. Hopefully we can get him to agree to somewhat less, because the most important positions are QB, LT and DE so we need to invest the most in those spots.
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Old 02-07-2012   #105
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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His cap number was around $19 million since Bob McNair said himself that Mario's tag was $22.9. Mario could command 11-13 million average salary. So if we could get that number down to 10 or 11 for next season (possibly lower) we could easily work deals for our other FAs. Foster could command 9-10 million. Hopefully we can get him to agree to somewhat less, because the most important positions are QB, LT and DE so we need to invest the most in those spots.
We already have... 1st round pick... Duane Brown, high FA acquisition Antonio Smith, 2nd round pick Connor Barwin, 1st round pick J.J. Watt, and 2nd round pick Brooks Reed.

It's the high investment in that spot (DE/OLBer) which has made moving on without Mario Williams a complete realistic viable option.
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Old 02-07-2012   #106
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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We already have... 1st round pick... Duane Brown, high FA acquisition Antonio Smith, 2nd round pick Connor Barwin, 1st round pick J.J. Watt, and 2nd round pick Brooks Reed.

It's the high investment in that spot (DE/OLBer) which has made moving on without Mario Williams a complete realistic viable option.
It is definately a possibility and realistic option that MW and the Texans part ways. But it changes their needs significantly going forward.

You just cant go into next season with Barwin , Reed and .... Jesse Nading & Bryan Braman as your only backups.
While I have some high hopes for Braman he is the same as Nading at this point in time - simply a ST player and depth.

They wouldnt have to aquire a player equal to MW but would definately have to find a quality pass rusher that can be part of a rotation.

Either way , they can sign their own FA's that they want to keep ....

The question boils down to - Are you better with him or can you spend that money elsewhere and improve the team overall to compensate for the loss.
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Old 02-07-2012   #107
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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It is definitely a possibility and realistic option that MW and the Texans part ways. But it changes their needs significantly going forward.

You just cant go into next season with Barwin , Reed and .... Jesse Nading & Bryan Braman as your only backups.
While I have some high hopes for Braman he is the same as Nading at this point in time - simply a ST player and depth.

They wouldn't have to acquire a player equal to MW but would definitely have to find a quality pass rusher that can be part of a rotation.

Either way , they can sign their own FA's that they want to keep ....

The question boils down to - Are you better with him or can you spend that money elsewhere and improve the team overall to compensate for the loss.
I agree with this and mentioned it earlier in this thread. If Mario walks, I'll have no problem with adding another OLBer in the draft.. Hell, I expect that to do that if he walks.

I just think we are already solid at the starting positions, but we would need depth. You can find depth in the middle rounds and it's much easier to fill a backup spot than it is to fill a starting role. We already have the starting caliber type players to replace Mario Williams if we elect to let him go and that's a great position to be in.

Everyone knew if we acquired enough talent sooner or later we'd be put in this position. When you have a very talented team, you can't sign everybody under the cap. This is what happens to go teams, which is why I'm not freaking out over the prospect of maybe letting #90 walk. We have other elite players that need to be signed as well.
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Old 02-08-2012   #108
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

I would feel much better, about letting MW walk, if we had kept Mark Anderson to play OLB. There is no guarantee that a na draft pick or free agent is going to work out, there are several reasons why h won't.

Mario has that bird in the hand thing going for him.
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Old 02-08-2012   #109
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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I agree with this and mentioned it earlier in this thread. If Mario walks, I'll have no problem with adding another OLBer in the draft.. Hell, I expect that to do that if he walks.

I just think we are already solid at the starting positions, but we would need depth. You can find depth in the middle rounds and it's much easier to fill a backup spot than it is to fill a starting role. We already have the starting caliber type players to replace Mario Williams if we elect to let him go and that's a great position to be in.

Everyone knew if we acquired enough talent sooner or later we'd be put in this position. When you have a very talented team, you can't sign everybody under the cap. This is what happens to go teams, which is why I'm not freaking out over the prospect of maybe letting #90 walk. We have other elite players that need to be signed as well.
I get where you're coming from but what makes you think signing Mario affects us being able to keep our key players (if you mean the key FA from 2012)? First of all if we sign Mario we will sign our key guys. If we don't sign him we still will sign our key guys and we'll take the course of action you mentioned in your post. Also, what makes those other guys so special (assuming those other guys are Barwin/Reed/whomever we draft to "replace" Mario) that we should keep them over Mario? I mean if we signed Mario I'm sure we could keep some of them and others might walk (looking ahead to 2013 since he will not affect us signing key guys from this year). But Mario hands down is a better player than Barwin or Reed. I mean you're essentially saying let go of a game changer to keep a few "high motor" guys. Teams only have a chance to have a player like Mario once a generation. If we let him walk that was our "once a generation" so we'd be relegated to some role players to try to compete for championships until we were able to get a pass rusher like him again. I'm sure it would not be hard to find another Barwin/Reed compared to another Mario. So yes we'd have to address depth if he walks. But why do we value some good players more than a great changer? I always thought you keep the game changer and build around them (which is what we did with our defense).

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Old 02-08-2012   #110
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If I'm the Texans, no way am I letting Mario walk....period....

I'd find a way to make his cap number reaasonable....whatever reasonable is...
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Old 02-08-2012   #111
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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I'll already mentioned those two players... So what's your point?


And will people please get off of...games missed. This is about INJURIES SUSTAINED. Hence, injury prone.
Games missed is about 10000000000000000x more important than whether they get nicked up throughout the season but still complete it.

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Old 02-08-2012   #112
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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Games missed is about 10000000000000000x more important than whether they get nicked up throughout the season but still complete it.

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Wow nice bump...

Nobody is trying to argue which is more important or even better... that wasn't even the argument or point that was even put forth. The argument was if Mario was injury prone or not... and he's injury prone.

And it isn't just about "competing", it's about at what level (there's a TON of players that "compete" in the NFL who aren't worth elite money). Mario Williams hasn't put up elite production since 2008. Hence, not worth the money that he's going to command.
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Old 02-08-2012   #113
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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I get where you're coming from but what makes you think signing Mario affects us being able to keep our key players (if you mean the key FA from 2012)? First of all if we sign Mario we will sign our key guys. If we don't sign him we still will sign our key guys and we'll take the course of action you mentioned in your post. Also, what makes those other guys so special (assuming those other guys are Barwin/Reed/whomever we draft to "replace" Mario) that we should keep them over Mario? I mean if we signed Mario I'm sure we could keep some of them and others might walk (looking ahead to 2013 since he will not affect us signing key guys from this year). But Mario hands down is a better player than Barwin or Reed. I mean you're essentially saying let go of a game changer to keep a few "high motor" guys. Teams only have a chance to have a player like Mario once a generation. If we let him walk that was our "once a generation" so we'd be relegated to some role players to try to compete for championships until we were able to get a pass rusher like him again. I'm sure it would not be hard to find another Barwin/Reed compared to another Mario. So yes we'd have to address depth if he walks. But why do we value some good players more than a great changer? I always thought you keep the game changer and build around them (which is what we did with our defense).
How is Mario Williams a "game changer", but Barwin is not? The dude hasn't recorded double digit sacks since 2008 and doesn't play near as hard as other players...game changers don't pull disappearing acts either. As a rookie, J.J. Watt was more of a "game changer" than Mario has ever been... even when healthy.

Barwin was also NOT a "role player" last season, frankly that's insulting to Barwin and to a extent even Reed.

As far as not being able to find other high caliber players... teams do it every year and you don't need a #1 ovrl pick to get a player who's better than Mario Williams.
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Old 02-08-2012   #114
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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How is Mario Williams a "game changer"? The dude hasn't recorded double digit sacks since 2008 and doesn't play near as hard as other players...game changers don't pull disapearing acts either. As a rookie, J.J. Watt was more of a "game changer" than Mario has ever been... even when healthy.

Barwin was also NOT a "role player" last season, frankly that's insulting to Barwin and even Reed.

As far as not being able to find other high caliber players... teams do it every year and you don't need a #1 ovrl pick to get a player who's better than Mario Williams.
I respect your opinion, but I beg to differ. He led the team in sacks 4 out of 6 years and accounted for 33% (48 of 144 total sacks) of the teams sacks from 2006-2010. His numbers have declined since 2008 (still led his team in sacks so what does that say about the other guys?) but he played through injuries. BTW who was leading the team in sacks before Mario went down in week 5? Anyway, my point was that if we sign Mario and say Barwin walked next year. Barwin replacement would be easier to find. You don't actually replace Mario if he walks. You just find guys to pick it up across the board. It seems to me that it would be easier to replace a Barwin or Reed easier than it would be to replace a Williams type of player.

On the contrary, Barwin and Reed are role players. Although Barwin stepped up and played very well last season, he's a "role player" if we resign Mario. Quite frankly Mario Williams > Connor Barwin or Brooks Reed or any draft pick you have in mind.

I never said we could not find "high caliber players". I just said that it's easier to find someone of Barwin's talent than it would be to find someone of Williams' talent. Just follow my reasoning. Since we can easily replace a Mario (according to you). Why can't we just replace Barwin next year since "high caliber" players are so easy to come across?
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Old 02-08-2012   #115
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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I would feel much better, about letting MW walk, if we had kept Mark Anderson to play OLB. There is no guarantee that a na draft pick or free agent is going to work out, there are several reasons why h won't.

Mario has that bird in the hand thing going for him.
Mark Anderson? We have free agency in front of us. If Mark Anderson would make you feel better about losing Mario, then I wouldn't worry about the options that will be available. There will be plenty of talent in the market at/or above Mark Anderson's talent level.
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Old 02-08-2012   #116
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Mark Anderson? We have free agency in front of us. If Mark Anderson would make you feel better about losing Mario, then I wouldn't worry about the options that will be available. There will be plenty of talent in the market at/or above Mark Anderson's talent level.
Still my contention that the Texans won't be big players in this coming FA period.

Don't see it happening.
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Old 02-08-2012   #117
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His cap number was around $19 million since Bob McNair said himself that Mario's tag was $22.9. Mario could command 11-13 million average salary. So if we could get that number down to 10 or 11 for next season (possibly lower) we could easily work deals for our other FAs. Foster could command 9-10 million. Hopefully we can get him to agree to somewhat less, because the most important positions are QB, LT and DE so we need to invest the most in those spots.
ANyway you can provide link as I have heard only John McCain sayng this. If it is sourced and true we should be able to start using the $22.9 cap figure. I am good either way as if true and he is not on roster $23m is a lot of cashola to spend somewhere.
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Old 02-08-2012   #118
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ANyway you can provide link as I have heard only John McCain sayng this. If it is sourced and true we should be able to start using the $22.9 cap figure. I am good either way as if true and he is not on roster $23m is a lot of cashola to spend somewhere.
I don't have a link, but I recall a Chronicle article quoting McNair saying that Mario would cost 23 mill to tag and that's why the Texans won't do it. From there I estimated his actual salary to be 19 mill, and that's why I have been saying that the past week or so. The quote is buried somewhere in the Mario thread...

Corrosion has said Mario's number was actually 17.6 mill, and I think that may come from a source close to the Texans (not McClain...). So that has some credence as well. If I had to bet on it though, I'd go with the 17.6 figure as it's slightly more conservative. Either way, that alone is enough to re-sign Myers, Brisiel, Foster, Dreesen and FA WR. So I think the Texans will remain mostly in tact.
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Old 02-08-2012   #119
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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
I don't have a link, but I recall a Chronicle article quoting McNair saying that Mario would cost 23 mill to tag and that's why the Texans won't do it. From there I estimated his actual salary to be 19 mill, and that's why I have been saying that the past week or so. The quote is buried somewhere in the Mario thread...

Corrosion has said Mario's number was actually 17.6 mill, and I think that may come from a source close to the Texans (not McClain...). So that has some credence as well. If I had to bet on it though, I'd go with the 17.6 figure as it's slightly more conservative. Either way, that alone is enough to re-sign Myers, Brisiel, Foster, Dreesen and FA WR. So I think the Texans will remain mostly in tact.
That is article I'm referring to but don't remember McClain saying McNair was source just stated it as a fact. Corrosion I think is using the $17m as a tag not salary. I think he agrees with me that salary 2011 was apprx $14 million with cap of $15.6 and tag of $14m + 20% = $16.8m. for 2012.
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Old 02-08-2012   #120
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

Quote:
Originally Posted by badboy View Post
That is article I'm referring to but don't remember McClain saying McNair was source just stated it as a fact. Corrosion I think is using the $17m as a tag not salary. I think he agrees with me that salary 2011 was apprx $14 million with cap of $15.6 and tag of $14m + 20% = $16.8m. for 2012.
There has been a link provided in at least one of these threads that included that quote out of an article by David Dalati for Fox Sports. Dalati quotes McNair as saying Mario's franchise tag number for next season would be $23 Million, and that it was not an option.

Quote:
McNair also said that franchising Williams is out of the question since his tag number would be nearly $23 million for 2012.
LINK
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