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Old 02-02-2012   #41
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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He's had injuries that have affected his play in almost every season. He had plantar fasciitis his rookie year, groin pulls, sports hernias that required offseason surgery, torn pec this season. He played through most of the injuries and while that's commendable and shows toughness, etc. it does affect his ability to perform on the field at a high level. These are well known injuries, not something conjured up to bash him.
Then why do you persist in using his injuries as a reason not to sign him, when he doesn't get any more nicked up than any other player?

Just come out and say that you don't want to re-sign him because you don't think he's a good enough player to be paid the amount it would take to keep him.
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Old 02-02-2012   #42
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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He's had injuries that have affected his play in almost every season. He had plantar fasciitis his rookie year, groin pulls, sports hernias that required offseason surgery, torn pec this season. He played through most of the injuries and while that's commendable and shows toughness, etc. it does affect his ability to perform on the field at a high level. These are well known injuries, not something conjured up to bash him.
& just like you guys can misuse the injury prone label, proponents of mario can look at his production & say that he's still performed damn good despite those setbacks.....& with trash teammates & coaches around him to boot.
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Old 02-02-2012   #43
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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Then why do you persist in using his injuries as a reason not to sign him, when he doesn't get any more nicked up than any other player?

Just come out and say that you don't want to re-sign him because you don't think he's a good enough player to be paid the amount it would take to keep him.
I use his injury history in conjunction with him not being an elite, consistent game-changing player to attempt to drive home the point that signing him to a big contract is not a very good idea.
I think Mario is a quality player, but not on the level that some on this forum and the national media put him on.

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& just like you guys can misuse the injury prone label, proponents of mario can look at his production & say that he's still performed damn good despite those setbacks.....& with trash teammates & coaches around him to boot.
I say he's performed damn good....sometimes. Most of the time, he's been fairly pedestrian to slightly above average. He sure looked like he was going to change my mind on that this season. Then he got hurt. Again.
Mario has had double digit sacks twice in his career. Don't make it out like he's the 2nd coming of Reggie White.
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Old 02-02-2012   #44
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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Jacoby costs them $3m if he's on the roster and has no guaranteed money remaining on his deal. To cut him saves $3m with no consequences against the cap.
I haven't seen anything to support this. He's guaranteed $3M over a 3 year period. But he was paid less than $700K last season.

He may only cost $1.7M towards the 2012 cap, unless we cut him, which would put $2.5M (or something) of dead money on the books. It may be cheaper to keep him, we don't know as the reports of his contract hasn't been published with any detail.
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Old 02-02-2012   #45
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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I haven't seen anything to support this. He's guaranteed $3M over a 3 year period. But he was paid less than $700K last season.

He may only cost $1.7M towards the 2012 cap, unless we cut him, which would put $2.5M (or something) of dead money on the books. It may be cheaper to keep him, we don't know as the reports of his contract hasn't been published with any detail.
I don't know how you have missed it. I've never heard any numbers like what you said, but if you can source it, go ahead.

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Coming off a 2010 season where he set career-highs with 51 receptions for 562 yards, and a two-year total of nine touchdown receptions, the Texans re-signed Jones to a three-year, $10.5 million contract on July 30. Jones' contract included $3.5 million in guarantees -- his $1.5 million signing bonus and $2 million base salary -- with $7 million in base salary over the final two seasons.
http://www.macsfootballblog.com/2012...g-heat-in.html

If he had a 1.5 mill signing bonus, then it's impossible for his cap hit to be only 700k because the league minimum for a guy like him is around 500k. That plus the 500k signing bonus prorated over 3 years equals at least 1 million paid in 2011, but likely more because the deal averages out to 3.5 million a year.

If his guarantees are in fact 1.5 mill in signing bonus and 2 mill of salary, then cutting him would likely cost the team 1 million in accelerated signing bonus for 2012 and nothing in salary because he likely made 2-3 million in salary last year. It would save about 3.5 million in 2012, less the 1 million signing bonus. Not too bad if we can replace him.
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Old 02-02-2012   #46
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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I don't know how you have missed it. I've never heard any numbers like what you said, but if you can source it, go ahead.



http://www.macsfootballblog.com/2012...g-heat-in.html

If he had a 1.5 mill signing bonus, then it's impossible for his cap hit to be only 700k because the league minimum for a guy like him is around 500k. That plus the 500k signing bonus prorated over 3 years equals at least 1 million paid in 2011, but likely more because the deal averages out to 3.5 million a year.

If his guarantees are in fact 1.5 mill in signing bonus and 2 mill of salary, then cutting him would likely cost the team 1 million in accelerated signing bonus for 2012 and nothing in salary because he likely made 2-3 million in salary last year. It would save about 3.5 million in 2012, less the 1 million signing bonus. Not too bad if we can replace him.
"An Independent Football News Outlet"? I do not even know if that source is credible or not. I've seen sources that say otherwise.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/jacoby-jones/

Logically it does not makes sense to pay someone their guaranteed money in 1 season. Your source says he got a $1.5 million signing bonus (only $500k counted towards cap last season). With an alleged $2 million base salary, he would already have $2.5 million of his $3.5 million guaranteed counted against the cap after 1 season (with $1 million of the prorated bonus left). You have to actually go back and look at his production over the past 2 seasons prior to 2011. He was consistent, but not worthy of $3.5 million in one season. I find it more reasonable to believe the source that says he had a $450k base salary last year with a $450k signing bonus (prorated at $150k per year) for a cap hit of $600k. Those numbers are more inline with his actual production over the past 3 seasons.

Last edited by cbs1507; 02-02-2012 at 07:21 PM.
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Old 02-02-2012   #47
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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I don't know how you have missed it. I've never heard any numbers like what you said, but if you can source it, go ahead.



http://www.macsfootballblog.com/2012...g-heat-in.html

If he had a 1.5 mill signing bonus, then it's impossible for his cap hit to be only 700k because the league minimum for a guy like him is around 500k. That plus the 500k signing bonus prorated over 3 years equals at least 1 million paid in 2011, but likely more because the deal averages out to 3.5 million a year.

If his guarantees are in fact 1.5 mill in signing bonus and 2 mill of salary, then cutting him would likely cost the team 1 million in accelerated signing bonus for 2012 and nothing in salary because he likely made 2-3 million in salary last year. It would save about 3.5 million in 2012, less the 1 million signing bonus. Not too bad if we can replace him.
Your numbers make more sense.... I was going by what was posted in the "Jacoby's gotta go" thread
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Well his cap hit was $600k. That included the signing bonus of $450k, which was prorated at $150k per year. That's where the $600k figure came from ($450k base salary + $150k prorated signing bonus= $600k cap hit).

Jacoby's contract details (minus the extra technical stuff)
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/jacoby-jones/
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Old 02-02-2012   #48
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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"An Independent Football News Outlet"? I do not even know if that source is credible or not. I've seen sources that say otherwise.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/jacoby-jones/

Logically it does not makes sense to pay someone their guaranteed money in 1 season. Your source says he got a $1.5 million signing bonus (only $500k counted towards cap last season). With an alleged $2 million base salary, he would already have $2.5 million of his $3.5 million guaranteed counted against the cap after 1 season (with $1 million of the prorated bonus left). You have to actually go back and look at his production over the past 2 seasons prior to 2011. He was consistent, but not worthy of $3.5 million in one season. I find it more reasonable to believe the source that says he had a $450k base salary last year with a $450k signing bonus (prorated at $150k per year) for a cap hit of $600k. Those numbers are more inline with his actual production over the past 3 seasons.
That makes no sense at all. With that premise, you're telling me that JJ is set to earn 9.9 million over the next two years then. There's just no way the numbers work out like that, as it would put the Texans in a bind this year due to the 2.9 million guaranteed on the remaining contract. I think sporttrac is wrong, and I haven't seen any other site list him at those numbers. Also, given that they only show a salary for that one year and not the other two leads me to think it's a mistake or unsubstantiated. Got any other sources that say he earned 700k or so last year?
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Old 02-02-2012   #49
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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That makes no sense at all. With that premise, you're telling me that JJ is set to earn 9.9 million over the next two years then. There's just no way the numbers work out like that, as it would put the Texans in a bind this year due to the 2.9 million guaranteed on the remaining contract. I think sporttrac is wrong, and I haven't seen any other site list him at those numbers. Also, given that they only show a salary for that one year and not the other two leads me to think it's a mistake or unsubstantiated. Got any other sources that say he earned 700k or so last year?
No, but that's the only one I've seen that says he earned $2.5 million. Every other source just says the contract length and the guaranteed figure.

From that source I was under the impression that the money left over from his guaranteed figure would be accumulated over the next 2 seasons and that he could earn the unguarded portion ($7.5 million) through incentives.

IMO $3.5 million seems like alot to to pay him for 1 season if you look at his production over the 2 seasons prior to 2011.

http://www.nfl.com/player/jacobyjones/2495651/profile

He made about $750k in 2010. You have to wonder what made his market value shoot up to $3.5 million in 1 season? He was consistent, but his numbers were only decent as a 4th or 5th option. But why invest that much in a 4th or 5th option? I'm not saying your source is wrong. Nobody knows the actual details of the contracts.

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Old 02-02-2012   #50
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No, but that's the only one I've seen that says he earned $2.5 million. Every other source just says the contract length and the guaranteed figure.

From that source I was under the impression that the money left over from his guaranteed figure would be accumulated over the next 2 seasons and that he could earn the unguarded portion ($7.5 million) through incentives.

IMO $3.5 million seems like alot to to pay him for 1 season if you look at his production over the 2 seasons prior to 2011.

http://www.nfl.com/player/jacobyjones/2495651/profile

He made about $750k in 2010. You have to wonder what made his market value shoot up to $3.5 million in 1 season? He was consistent, but his numbers were only decent as a 4th or 5th option. But why invest that much in a 4th or 5th option? I'm not saying your source is wrong. Nobody knows the actual details of the contracts.
Well he got more money because he was no longer on his rookie contract. 3.5 million a year is about the going rate for #3 receiving options around the league. Guys like Lance Moore, Plax, Steve Smith (PHI) all got similar money to be that kind of guy on their teams in the last round of free agency. I don't think a 2-3 mill base salary is outlandish for him.
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Old 02-02-2012   #51
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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"An Independent Football News Outlet"? I do not even know if that source is credible or not. I've seen sources that say otherwise.

What is this .... Clutchfans ? Selectively discrediting sources .... Dutch provided a link to back up what he said.

According to his source -

Quote:
his $1.5 million signing bonus and $2 million base salary -- with $7 million in base salary over the final two seasons
That would mean it would cost $1m to cut Jones as opposed to $3.5m to keep him since the bonuses are pro-rated over the length of the contract.
His production could be replaced for a third of the cost making it appealing to eat that signing bonus money.
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Old 02-02-2012   #52
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Did you notice that WE are homers, while HE is "objective"?
Are you a mouse that takes up residence in Bong's pocket? Or do you just feel left out?

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Old 02-02-2012   #53
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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I don't know how you have missed it. I've never heard any numbers like what you said, but if you can source it, go ahead.



http://www.macsfootballblog.com/2012...g-heat-in.html

If he had a 1.5 mill signing bonus, then it's impossible for his cap hit to be only 700k because the league minimum for a guy like him is around 500k. That plus the 500k signing bonus prorated over 3 years equals at least 1 million paid in 2011, but likely more because the deal averages out to 3.5 million a year.

If his guarantees are in fact 1.5 mill in signing bonus and 2 mill of salary, then cutting him would likely cost the team 1 million in accelerated signing bonus for 2012 and nothing in salary because he likely made 2-3 million in salary last year. It would save about 3.5 million in 2012, less the 1 million signing bonus. Not too bad if we can replace him.
The info from macsfootballblog are what I remember when JJ re-signed and I think it was from Houston paper. I reall $10.5 over 3 years with a small guarantee. I would cut him.
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Old 02-02-2012   #54
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The info from macsfootballblog are what I remember when JJ re-signed and I think it was from Houston paper. I reall $10.5 over 3 years with a small guarantee. I would cut him.
Its going to come down to how much they can save in the process .... We have such conflicting numbers from multiple sources much like MW's cap figure , everyone wants to make up a number and plug it in ....


What we do know is he signed a 3 year deal worth $10.5m - $1.5m in signing bonus and a total of $3.5m in guarantee's.

What it boils down to is how much guaranteed money aside from the signing bonus remains to be paid. If that number is minimal , and they can save ~$2m total by cutting him , I expect him to be gone as they could replace his production at a substantial discount with a draft pick , even one taken late in the first round ..... and they pick 26th. That player is likely to cost them in the neighborhood of ~$1.2m which is less than half Jacoby Jones salary.
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Old 02-03-2012   #55
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Saying that Mario is "injury prone" is not bull****... It's called the truth and frankly I don't see how anybody can say he's not "injury prone".

BTW.. Schaub is "injury prone" also.
Then so is Andre Johnson.
of his 9 NFL seasons he's only played all 16 games in five of them.

Mario has played in (and started) all 16 games in four out of his six seasons in the league.

If we're dumping people because they're "injury prone" then Andre and Schaub should go before Mario.
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Old 02-03-2012   #56
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Then so is Andre Johnson.
of his 9 NFL seasons he's only played all 16 games in five of them.

Mario has played in (and started) all 16 games in four out of his six seasons in the league.

If we're dumping people because they're "injury prone" then Andre and Schaub should go before Mario.
I'll already mentioned those two players... So what's your point?


And will people please get off of...games missed. This is about INJURIES SUSTAINED. Hence, injury prone.
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Old 02-03-2012   #57
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I don't care if mario is injury prone. He's been a good pass rusher and he's good against the run. Overall he's a top tier player and just like everyone else improved under wade I expect mario to do the same. We've had guys everywhere on that defense with bad or mediocre seasons. We attribute that to bad coaching. The scheme sucked. Well through all of that, through all his injuries mario has been a good and sometimes great player. He has been a victim of bad coaching too. Now he finally gets a real d coordinator and was looking awesome. Was having his best year. Its like some of you have selective memory. Not sure why mario is being looked at as the same de that played for richard smith and frank bush when wade clearly has guys playing at a higher level. And its not likw mario sucked back then. On a bad defense he was still a good player. In wades defense he should be even better. At least that's what makes sense to me.
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Old 02-03-2012   #58
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

Here's my take on Williams. Has he been banged up some over the past couple of seasons? Absolutely.

But I wouldn't label him injury prone. He's still a young guy who's just entering the prime years of his career.

If there is a way to resign him without wrecking the cap for future years, I'm all for bringing him back. He's a playmaker in the front 7 and you can never have too many guys like that. See the NY Giants. That NY defense pretty much shutdown 2 of the NFC's top QBs (Ryan and Rodgers) on their way to the Super Bowl.

My gut tells me that some team that runs a 4-3 will offer him a larger contract than the Texans are willing to pay. I'm pretty sure Mario prefers playing DE rather than standing up as an OLB. The extra money plus the chance to play the position he's comfortable with will probably be too much to pass up.

We'll see in a little over a month.
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Old 02-03-2012   #59
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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Originally Posted by ObsiWan View Post
Then so is Andre Johnson.
of his 9 NFL seasons he's only played all 16 games in five of them.

Mario has played in (and started) all 16 games in four out of his six seasons in the league.

If we're dumping people because they're "injury prone" then Andre and Schaub should go before Mario.
Well, I'm sure that will be a conversation when Schaub's contract is due after next season.

Andre is signed for 5 more years, so it's a moot point. If he was hitting free agency, you'd better belief that his health would be an issue.
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Old 02-03-2012   #60
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Default Re: Re-structuring Contracts to free up $$$

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I'll already mentioned those two players... So what's your point?


And will people please get off of...games missed. This is about INJURIES SUSTAINED. Hence, injury prone.
Okay... but if you use injuries sustained the picture gets worse, especially concerning Schaub.
...remember when Schaub slipped going out of bounds in '09 during the first game (maybe it was the final preseason game)? He twisted his ankle and everyone thought, "crap, here we go again"; but, to his credit, he played the entire season. Still, injury sustained.

Point is that most everyone plays hurt at some time or another. Antonio Smith played most of the year with a bad shoulder. DeMeco played hurt most of '09. A.J. has played thru injuries even before his hammy(s) took him down this year. O.D. has had various nicks (like his hand this year) and knee the year before) that have impacted his play. It's when those injuries make players miss games that those "nicks" become an issue. Like Bob Sanders - he was off the field more than he was on.

You have your definition of "injury prone", mine is when those injuries take you out of multiple games.
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