Film study - Mario Williams vs. Colts

[dalemurphy]

Originally Posted by cbs1507

Here was our opponents we faced without Mario...
Bal 15th total offense 19th in pass 10th run (23 PPG)
Ten 17 total offense 12th pass 31st run (20 PPG)
Jax 32nd total offense 32nd pass 12th run (15 PPG)
Cle 29th total offense 24th pass 28th run (13 PPG)
TB 21st total offense 16th pass 30th run (17 PPG)
Jax 32nd total offense 32nd pass 12th run (15 PPG)
Atl 10th total offense 8th pass 17th run (25 PPG)
Cin 20th total offense 20th pass 19th run (21 PPG)
Car 7th total offense 13th pass 3rd run (25 PPG)
Ind 30th total offense 27th pass 26th run (15 PPG)
Ten 17 total offense 12th pass 31st run (20 PPG)

...maybe YOU did not think we could dominate down the stretch. But anybody who looked at the BIG PICTURE was not surprised by the defense play down the stretch.

And what were the staggering offensive numbers that Pittsburgh, Miami, and Indianapolis put up?

I will agree with you that New Orleans was the best offense we played this year. But to suggest the improvement on defense later in the year is simply due to scheduling is either ignorant or dishonest. One could argue that the Texans would've made those improvements, perhaps even been better if Mario was healthy, but to deny the improvements is foolishness.

[cbs1507]

Originally Posted by dalemurphy

And what were the staggering offensive numbers that Pittsburgh, Miami, and Indianapolis put up?

I will agree with you that New Orleans was the best offense we played this year. But to suggest the improvement on defense later in the year is simply due to scheduling is either ignorant or dishonest. One could argue that the Texans would've made those improvements, perhaps even been better if Mario was healthy, but to deny the improvements is foolishness.

Where did I "deny the improvements"? I said I was not surprised by the play of the defense like you were, because I always look at the BIG PICTURE. No what you have been trying to suggest is "ignorant", "dishonest" and "foolish".

Originally Posted by dalemurphy

Barwin costs about $1 million per year, Mario costs over $14 million per year.

Arguing who is better, is not important. How the Texans can field the best complete team is what I care about.

The Texans have proven to be a great defense without Mario Williams and with Barwin. I'm not sure what your point is. Barwin is under contract and Mario is the free agent. Barwin was a contributor on a defense that blossomed into a great defense. Mario received almost a $1 million per game to sit and watch from the sidelines as Barwin racked up most of his 11.5 sacks.

You are trying to suggest that signing Mario would prevent us from having a complete team. This claim is made based on several assumptions. 1) Mario salary will prevent us from signing key guys 2) We can improve depth by releasing him. On the contrary, we can actually improve our depth by signing Mario and you have failed to provide sufficient evidence that proves that bringing him back will hamper our ability to sign other key players. We were around $2 million under the cap of $120 million in 2011. The cap in 2012 will be AT LEAST $120 million if not greater. We have 12 free agents, that means 12 salaries coming off the cap (including Mario Williams' salary). Your only argument about salary cap is irrelevant because it ignores our actual cap situation and overlooks other options such as restructuring current players contract and possible cap casualties (none of whom are key players).

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by cbs1507

how many is "too many"? I guess according to you it's zero, because mario williams is our only pass rusher that commands an elite salary.

msr

[dalemurphy]

Originally Posted by cbs1507

Where did I "deny the improvements"? I said I was not surprised by the play of the defense like you were, because I always look at the BIG PICTURE. No what you have been trying to suggest is "ignorant", "dishonest" and "foolish".



You are trying to suggest that signing Mario would prevent us from having a complete team. This claim is made based on several assumptions. 1) Mario salary will prevent us from signing key guys 2) We can improve depth by releasing him. On the contrary, we can actually improve our depth by signing Mario and you have failed to provide sufficient evidence that proves that bringing him back will hamper our ability to sign other key players. We were around $2 million under the cap of $120 million in 2011. The cap in 2012 will be AT LEAST $120 million if not greater. We have 12 free agents, that means 12 salaries coming off the cap (including Mario Williams' salary). Your only argument about salary cap is irrelevant because it ignores our actual cap situation and overlooks other options such as restructuring current players contract and possible cap casualties (none of whom are key players).

There are no potential cuts to players still under contract that will significantly help the cap situation.

Arian Foster is getting paid this off-season. Chris Myers is due another contract. Brisiel is a free agent... All three of those are important players to the team, that will still be a good value, but will be signed for more than they were signed to in their previous contracts. For Foster, we are looking at a gigantic leap from a roughly $500,00 to more than 10X that per season

Also, we need to upgrade at WR2, CB2... not to mention that Matt Schaub is entering the last year of his contract, along with the following players:

1. Duane Brown (he'll cost 4 or 5 times what he cost us with his rookie deal)
2. Connor Barwin
3. Glover Quin


These are significant players that are all coming due and all due bigger contracts. Remember, also, the cap number for the NFL was moved backwards last season. Things are tight for 1/2 the NFL. Also, though, you have NFL teams like Cincinnati and Tampa Bay that have been way under the cap for years and years. Under the new CBA, they are required to spend money now. Tampa, I believe, has to increase its payroll by $50 million this off-season. With dynamics in place like this, I see no responsible way to even entertain re-signing Mario.

There's absolutely no cap relief coming to the Texans as a result of the 12 free agents (other than $14 million for Mario)... unless we decide to let Chis Myers walk and go with Shelley Smith or Caldwell at center. Most of the rest of that group were playing for near the veteran minimum. Since the Texans must pay for a 53 man roster, that space will get eaten up by whomever replaces them.

[Dutchrudder]

1. Duane Brown (he'll cost 4 or 5 times what he cost us with his rookie deal)
2. Connor Barwin
3. Glover Quin

Elite left tackles are expensive, sure. It may be worth it to re-up Brown this year rather than next. Have the deal start next year, but get a signing bonus now to make him happy. I'm guessing his new deal will be in the 8 mill a year range.

If Barwin gets 10+ sacks next season, he's going to be expensive. I dunno how expensive, but he won't be cheap. I would expect him to get at least 5-6 mill a year, probably more depending on 2012.

Glover Quin? Really? We aren't going to break the bank on him. If he gets more than 3 million a year, I'll be shocked. He's not that significant, easily replaced with draft picks or street free agents. He's an average safety.

[dalemurphy]

Originally Posted by Dutchrudder

Elite left tackles are expensive, sure. It may be worth it to re-up Brown this year rather than next. Have the deal start next year, but get a signing bonus now to make him happy. I'm guessing his new deal will be in the 8 mill a year range.

If Barwin gets 10+ sacks next season, he's going to be expensive. I dunno how expensive, but he won't be cheap. I would expect him to get at least 5-6 mill a year, probably more depending on 2012.

Glover Quin? Really? We aren't going to break the bank on him. If he gets more than 3 million a year, I'll be shocked. He's not that significant, easily replaced with draft picks or street free agents. He's an average safety.

Are you proposing to go back to the plug and play safety disaster we dealt with for the past decade?

I'm not suggesting $5 or $6 million a year for Quin, but making $3 million or so after next season, instead of $500,000.

Don't forget Schaub.

[Dutchrudder]

Originally Posted by dalemurphy

Are you proposing to go back to the plug and play safety disaster we dealt with for the past decade?

I'm not suggesting $5 or $6 million a year for Quin, but making $3 million or so after next season, instead of $500,000.

Don't forget Schaub.

Well we have Manning for the next 3 years, so I'm not too worried about Safety overall. I just don't think Quin is anything above average and wouldn't think he will get more than 2 mill a year on the open market. If he gets 3 or more I'll be surprised. I'm guessing he resigns for about 3 years 5 million.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by dalemurphy

Are you proposing to go back to the plug and play safety disaster we dealt with for the past decade?

I'm not suggesting $5 or $6 million a year for Quin, but making $3 million or so after next season, instead of $500,000.

Don't forget Schaub.

I'm all for locking Quin up now. He looked pretty good to me & he's only going to get better.

[Brandon420tx]

Schaub is the only one the 2013 list not working off a rookie or low contract. Meaning his current cap hit is already substantial. He's the best candidate for signing a new deal this offseason which should also lower his initial cap hit.
Barwin is playing off a rookie 2nd round contract, so we let him finish that out and resign him in a higher 2013 cap year, albeit difficult if Mario's, Arian's, Chris's, Mike's, contracts balloon in 2013.
If we resign Mario, Duane Brown becomes the priority in 2013. If we don't Connor Barwin also becomes a high priority, but we'll have money to get both. Its essentially looking like either Mario or Barwin for the 2013 season. We have to bring back Brown, and doing so makes Barwin hard to bring back if we keep Mario.
Cushing should get an extension from his round 1 rookie contract so we aren't paying out his final big year and we lock him up long term before he hits his free agency year in 2014.
This offseason, and the next 2 offseasons are going to play a huge role in the future of the Texans

[cbs1507]

Originally Posted by dalemurphy

There are no potential cuts to players still under contract that will significantly help the cap situation.

Arian Foster is getting paid this off-season. Chris Myers is due another contract. Brisiel is a free agent... 1) All three of those are important players to the team, that will still be a good value, but will be signed for more than they were signed to in their previous contracts. For Foster, we are looking at a gigantic leap from a roughly $500,00 to more than 10X that per season

Also, we need to upgrade at WR2, CB2... not to mention that Matt Schaub is entering the last year of his contract, along with the following players:

2)
1. Duane Brown (he'll cost 4 or 5 times what he cost us with his rookie deal)
2. Connor Barwin
3. Glover Quin


These are significant players that are all coming due and all due bigger contracts. 3)Remember, also, the cap number for the NFL was moved backwards last season. Things are tight for 1/2 the NFL. Also, though, you have NFL teams like Cincinnati and Tampa Bay that have been way under the cap for years and years. 4)Under the new CBA, they are required to spend money now. Tampa, I believe, has to increase its payroll by $50 million this off-season. With dynamics in place like this, I see no responsible way to even entertain re-signing Mario.

5)There's absolutely no cap relief coming to the Texans as a result of the 12 free agents (other than $14 million for Mario)... unless we decide to let Chis Myers walk and go with Shelley Smith or Caldwell at center. 6)Most of the rest of that group were playing for near the veteran minimum. Since the Texans must pay for a 53 man roster, that space will get eaten up by whomever replaces them.

1) Yes all of them are key FAs for the Texans BUT only Foster (of those 3) is still on his rookie contract. He will be the only person to get a substantial raise. Myers made $3.5 million last year. He and Brisiel are zone blocking scheme linemen (smaller in stature but fleet of foot) so they won't have huge markets because only a few teams are predominately zone schemes.
2) All 3 of those guys are still on there rookie contracts. Why would we increase their cap number for 2012? Keep in mind that the salary cap will raise along with revenue, so expect the salary cap to increase over the next few years. We will likely deal with them next offseason.
3) Yes that usually happens when you move from uncapped 2010 to hard cap in 2011. But the salary cap will be AT LEAST no less than the $120.375 million is was in 2011.
4) Yes teams are required to spend at least 89% of the salary cap in 2012. But this is FREE AGENCY, meaning the player gets to choose where he wants to go. Those teams that you mentioned have cap space for a reason (they are bad teams). They certainly aren't contenders. Would Mario actually want to play there?
5) You don't have evidence to back this claim. Mario Williams cap hit was around $15 million (some source say $18 million). In a long term deal we would try to get that cap number down for the first 2 years. Chris Myers made about $3.5 (he won't be getting much more than that). Like I said earlier the only person getting a substantial raise of the bunch would be Foster, who is the only key player coming off his rookie contract (besides Williams).
6) Most of the rest of the 12 FAs are not getting big buck. Only a select few. If they want more, they are replaceable in FA or the draft (which will be much cheaper). The main goal is to get Williams and Foster. The other guys won't be getting much more (if not less) than what they were already making.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by dalemurphy

Did he win or lose his battle against Robert Meachem when Meachem sealed him (one on one) on the Sproles 30 yard TD run?

Originally Posted by The Cush

LOL, you always bring that play up and because of how you portray it proves you don't evaluate him objectively. Mario or any OLB/DE was set to fail in that position as was the play call. Its 3rd and 3 and we trot out 2 down linemen (Watt and Smith) and 3 linebackers, Mario and Barwin lined up on the outside and Cushing lined up to Barwins left on the LOS (over the Saints left side), and 6 defensive backs. The Saints have a wide receiver and a tight end lined up close to the right and call a sweep play to the right with a pulling guard. Now who do you think is going to win this one? Not only are we outnumbered on the right hand side but we have a defensive package out there catered to stopping the pass.

By the time Sproles controls the ball from the pitch he is already outside of Mario, not beyond Mario, but he is outside and it just takes a small block to get Sproles up the field.

You act like Meachem stands Mario up for a good 3 seconds when in reality he throws a blindside crack back block and holds it for not even a full second. Yea he get doesnt make the play but Sproles runs a sub 4.4, he turned that corner so fast I don't know who you think can just turn to his left, demolish the wide receiver in under .85 seconds and then tackle a guy that fast. It's simple physics that if Mario does not see the block coming and is not anticipating being hit by a guy, his movement is going to be impeded momentarily, even for a split second which is all Sproles (who had a monster season) needs. Stop acting like Meachem was playing right tackle and pancakes Mario in a head on one on one.

And here is how everyone else did on the play..Watt gets stone walled, Allen gets eaten up by the guard, Smith shoots straight up the field its too late for him, and Manning and Nolan run into each other while Cushing and Barwin have no chance due to where they were

Mario won that one, Dale.
Remember that when the End man (Mario) is crash blocked by the receiver, the CB becomes the Force Man. The first "culprit" on this play was Allen.
...

If you watched the play just before that, Barwin lost containment pretty badly to the TE.
Allen was unblocked (as the receiver went after Manning) and came up to make the tackle after a 5yd gain (with help from Cushing).
Allen did a pretty good job here considering it was an open field.
The reason Barwin looked to be not too far from the runner was due to the fact that Allen was unblocked so Sproles wanted to head directly north-south as soon as he can.
He (Sproles) had at least 18 yards to the side line (that's more than a third the width of the football field).
It's true that the spot of the ball was different and Sproles had the open side of the field to work with as opposed to the short side on his TD run; nevertheless Barwin did loose containment.
You can't say the same about Mario as the following example will make it clearer.
...

There was a similar play by us in the third quarter

1-10-NO 30 (1:26) B.Tate left end to NO 22 for 8 yards (J.Galette).

where we sent Jacoby crashing on their End man and pulled LT D. Brown to the outside.
Jacoby kept the weakside DE at least 11 yards from the side line.
He had no chance at Tate.

The CB Robinson (playing about 3 yards off the LOS) was able to engage D. Brown 3 yards in the backfield and just outside the numbers.

And Tate was still able to get 8 yards.

With Robinson playing like Allen, Tate would have been able to kick into high gear and burst past the safety #33 Greer before the LBs can arrive.
(Tate did make the safety and a LB miss, but he had to slow down giving other defenders time to recover - otherwise this could have been a 30yd TD run for us if their secondary had played poorly like ours; ie. Allen and Nolan.)
.....

Back to the TD run by Sproles.


First off, it was 3rd and 3 but the Saints were in single back shotgun spread with 2 receivers on each side.
The Texans have to play both the run and the pass.

The Saints ran the TE across Mario's face (there was some hand-fighting going on there, but the main design was to slow down Mario and to distract him).
The TE then crashed onto Watt as the RG took him head on.

While Mario's attention was now drawn to the pulling RT, the WR crash-blocked him from the side (there might have been a push in the back, but no matter.)
Mario was 3 yards into the backfield and was able to string the RB Sproles wide.
Sproles had at most 7 yards to work with.
Mario was able to get off the block unlike the Saints 43 WDE.
He was also able to reach out and try to grab Sproles while the Saints DE was completely out of the play at the POA.

When the QB pitched the ball to Sproles, the RT pulled to the outside of the TE and WR. At the time the ball was halfway to Sproles, Allen was a little more than 5 yards from the LOS. At this point, Allen was supposed to read run and stepped up to become the force man (like Robinson did in the example above) but he didn't.

The RT took five more steps to go around the edge to get to the LOS.
Yet, Allen was still five yards away from the LOS; this is a big NO NO as compared to the Saints CB Robinson.

And when the RT took out Allen 5 yards past the LOS, it made the job impossible for Manning.
If Allen had engaged the RT about 2 yards past the LOS, Manning (and possibly Barwin as well) could have brought Sproles down.

(This is also the play where Nolan missed the tackle that I had mentioned.)

So in summary, yes, Mario did his job unlike Barwin or the Saints WDE.

When I get to the film study of the game, I think I'll bring up some screen shots.

[The Cush]

Thanks for the more extensive breakdown 76, great stuff as always! Unfortunately whenever evidence is presented to dale that goes against his argument he just ignores it, just like:

"Mario doesn't EVER get double teamed or have any extra attention focused to him". (Proven wrong by this thread and any other game tape you put on)

"Mario only has one pass rush move." (Proven wrong by Mario himself)

"Mario is not a mentor to any of the young players in the front 7." (Proven wrong by JJ Watt's mouth)

"The defense never would have taken off if Mario hadn't of gone down." (Despite the defense being ranked in the top 5 during those games Mario played in)

Originally Posted by dalemurphy

I realize that ex-football players understand the game but that doesn't mean they are focused or concerned enough to be accurate and thoughtful with their analysis of it.

Guys like Trent Dilfer, Tim Hasselback, John Gruden are paid to analyze football on a daily basis. That is their job. If you honestly feel you've studied more game film on Mario or just in general than guys like them, who say Mario has a variety of pass rush moves because they see it on the film just like the rest of us do then you are more delusional they what I/we initially thought. I'm about 100% sure though your response to this will be they don't watch as much film as you do. "They are ex-athletes/coaches with a TV gig, they don't know what they are talking about. They probably roll out of bed and go to the set there's no way they take that job seriously." In the classic dalemurphy underselling fashion.

[dalemurphy]

Originally Posted by The Cush

Thanks for the more extensive breakdown 76, great stuff as always! Unfortunately whenever evidence is presented to dale that goes against his argument he just ignores it, just like:

"Mario doesn't EVER get double teamed or have any extra attention focused to him". (Proven wrong by this thread and any other game tape you put on)

"Mario only has one pass rush move." (Proven wrong by Mario himself)

"Mario is not a mentor to any of the young players in the front 7." (Proven wrong by JJ Watt's mouth)

"The defense never would have taken off if Mario hadn't of gone down." (Despite the defense being ranked in the top 5 during those games Mario played in)



Guys like Trent Dilfer, Tim Hasselback, John Gruden are paid to analyze football on a daily basis. That is their job. If you honestly feel you've studied more game film on Mario or just in general than guys like them, who say Mario has a variety of pass rush moves because they see it on the film just like the rest of us do then you are more delusional they what I/we initially thought. I'm about 100% sure though your response to this will be they don't watch as much film as you do. "They are ex-athletes/coaches with a TV gig, they don't know what they are talking about. They probably roll out of bed and go to the set there's no way they take that job seriously." In the classic dalemurphy underselling fashion.

Cush, so you agree with 76Texan's analysis of Kareem Jackson's performance? (Two people can watch the same thing and draw different conclusions without having a special agenda). I respect 76Texan but often disagree with his conclusions. As I do this time.

Your quotations are misrepresentations of what I have said.

I have said Mario only has one pass rush move. Let me change that: Mario only has one effective pass rush move.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by dalemurphy

I realize that ex-football players understand the game but that doesn't mean they are focused or concerned enough to be accurate and thoughtful with their analysis of it.

I'm don't think that everything that every former pro or college athlete says is correct, but your statement seems like you are trying to discount the value of that experience.

[mussop]

Originally Posted by The Cush

Guys like Trent Dilfer, Tim Hasselback, John Gruden are paid to analyze football on a daily basis. That is their job. If you honestly feel you've studied more game film on Mario or just in general than guys like them, who say Mario has a variety of pass rush moves because they see it on the film just like the rest of us do.

'
Not calling you out or anything but a link showing where professional analyst have said Mario has a variety of pass rush moves would be nice!

[dalemurphy]

Originally Posted by Rey

I'm don't think that everything that every former pro or college athlete says is correct, but your statement seems like you are trying to discount the value of that experience.

It's not their experience I discount, but I do discount what they present in the forums like Sportscenter, NFL Live, MNF, etc...

These are some of the same people that also made fun of the Texans for not draft Reggie Bush... for years. I knew Bush was a vastly overrated running back 3 years before these talking heads did. These are also the guys that talked about what a great player safety Roy Williams was when I knew he was mediocre at best. Usually, when all of them are of one voice is when they are least accurate in their assessments.

[The Cush]

Originally Posted by dalemurphy

Cush, so you agree with 76Texan's analysis of Kareem Jackson's performance? (Two people can watch the same thing and draw different conclusions without having a special agenda). I respect 76Texan but often disagree with his conclusions. As I do this time.

I was actually only referring to the part about the Darren Sproles run. That's the only part I read.

[The Cush]

Originally Posted by mussop

'
Not calling you out or anything but a link showing where professional analyst have said Mario has a variety of pass rush moves would be nice!

They always do a little piece on Mario at the beginning of every Texans game which I don't have on my computer. I also don't have episodes of NFL Live on my computer. But doing a quick search on youtube I found a couple..

Tom Jackson breaks down Mario's game. (This will probably be discredited because this was when NFL Live was big on showing Madden simulations)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzdJzOUdQo8

Gary Kubiak talking about Mario as part of the Top 100 list. (This will probably be discredited because its Gary). It also contains Mario fighting off a TE and then spin moving the LT for a sack at the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gHwQSraaPY

I'll look for more later and post them if I can find any

[Bulls on Parade]

I'd like to see a breakdown of Mario Williams' game against the Steelers. He was all over Big Ben in that game I remember.

[The Cush]

Originally Posted by mussop

'
Not calling you out or anything but a link showing where professional analyst have said Mario has a variety of pass rush moves would be nice!

Here's a few more..

Robert Mathis talking about the need to focus multiple blockers on Mario

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-top100...Mario-Williams

Warren Sapp with a breakdown of Mario, shows outside and insides moves.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d...-succeed-in-34

NFL Network's Bucky Brooks with an interactive scouting reports that touches on how he uses his hands in a couple of ways

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d...convert-to-olb