Film study - Mario Williams vs. Colts

[BigBull17]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

Don't fall for it. Mario can & has dropped into zone coverage & does as good a job as any of our LBs...... he's done it from day one. I've commented (& I know my opinion doesn't count as much as dalemurphy's) that he understands zone coverage better than any of our LBs.

Yeah, I never saw a time when he dropped into zone that he looked lost or horrible. They didn't drop him because he was THE BEST PASS RUSHER ON THE TEAM! (not yelling at you TK, but you know that) In preseason, Mario impressed the hell out of me with his LB'er skills. But, he had a bad half in NO, so all good is gone. Must spread rep...

[dalemurphy]

Originally Posted by Super Mario

Could it be that the defense was implementing a new system and they got better as time went on? Or did you think they would get worse in the new system, but Mario exiting changed all that?

There are alot more variables at work here than just with Mario and without. And if you dont see that then I am not sure what to tell you.

Also stop speaking out both sides of your mouth. Sometimes you say Mario is a waste of space and doesnt even make the team better. Other times you say you want him back and would be ok with giving him 35 million... Your words.

Of course there are a lot of variables. I happen to think one of them was Mario's exit. I can respect the fact that people will disagree with that. I didn't think that was true until going back and watching those early games at the end of this season.

Again, though, I'm debating whether we should keep him at his price. I think it is clear that we shouldn't based on the team's performance without him. If we could get him at a bargain basement price, then I would think that a wise move. I'm not contradicting myself. If he can be on the team and the team still can operate with room under the cap and if his guaranteed money were low enough that we could cut him loose if he underperformed on never regained his health, then I would have no problem with it. That's irrelevant, though. He's going to cost a lot of money!

[dalemurphy]

Originally Posted by Super Mario

So when I call your statement false you refute it, when Dutch calls it false you flip your stance and agree? You should just stop using the argument that Mario is untradeable. It is not accurate whether or not you think they actually would do it. At this point it is still available to the Texans.

I wasn't going for legalism. In one statement, for brevity sake, I was saying it is a practical impossibility. Later, responding to another, I agreed that it could legally happen and then reiterated why I think the Texans would never do something like that. This is a message board, not a legal document.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by dalemurphy

In six weeks we will know. I'd give 2-1 odds that Mario doesn't return to the Texans in 2012. Still, with the monster deal he is likely to sign, it may never be clear what the Texans were willing to pay him. I expect it to be way, way less than market value though.

Good, let's wait six weeks then. FYI:

"...Certainly (retaining Williams) is going to be a focus of ours. We want to keep him and we're going to do everything we can to do that."

[Lucky]

From tk's link above:

McNair also said that franchising Williams is out of the question since his tag number would be nearly $23 million for 2012.

If the Texans can't franchise Williams, they can't trade him. So the options are simple:

Reach a deal with Mario prior to free agency
Let him walk without compensation in 2012

[Dutchrudder]

McNair also said that franchising Williams is out of the question since his tag number would be nearly $23 million for 2012.

Wow, that's great news! Not that he won't be franchised, but that it puts Mario's salary for 2011 around 19 million plus any bonuses/incentives on top of that. That's WAY more than I had thought the Texans had to work with. No question is there money to re-sign Mario, Foster, Myers and Brisiel while picking up a mid-level #2 WR in free agency. Could easily sign Mario to a worthy deal that has him average 12-15 mill a year and still have enough to pay our other guys.

/This is of course assuming that Bob McNair knows the numbers...

[mussop]

Originally Posted by Super Mario

You should just stop using the argument that Mario is untradeable. It is not accurate whether or not you think they actually would do it. At this point it is still available to the Texans.

Quote:
McNair also said that franchising Williams is out of the question since his tag number would be nearly $23 million for 2012.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by dalemurphy

The Texans finished the season, defensively, giving up 263 yards per game. During the 4 games with Mario, the defense gave up about 325 yards per game, which is more than 80 yards per game more than it did in the 14 contests without Mario. While I realize the Saints game skews the numbers some, realize the Colts and the Dolphins are included in that four game stretch.

By the way, I was not trying to argue the defense wouldn't be good with Mario, only that it really took off without him. I'm not sure how anyone could honestly dispute that. The fact is that the defense was much better without Mario. That is a factual statement. We can disagree whether his absence played a role in their improvement or not. However, anyone arguing that he is essential to the success of the defense or the team simply isn't dealing with reality. 14 games without him (minus one quarter) and this defense was the best in the NFL... hands down. 14 games, by the way, is a pretty good sample size. I'm not making the argument based on 2 or 3 games.

1. The Colts weren't supposed to implode that early.
At any rate, the Texans D were better against the Colts with Mario than without him. Does the name Dan O. ring a bell to you, Dale?

2. The Dolphins with Henne was doing well offensively; they were no wussies.

3. Against the Saints, the Texans still led 26-17 when Mario bang his knee against Smith. He only played 10 or 11 of the last 36 snaps of the game.
He was double-teamed 4 times. The Saints went with a very quick pass on one play. Mario was neutralized by the OT only once. The rest of the time, he won his battle.

[ObsiWan]

Originally Posted by Dutchrudder

Wow, that's great news! Not that he won't be franchised, but that it puts Mario's salary for 2011 around 19 million plus any bonuses/incentives on top of that. That's WAY more than I had thought the Texans had to work with. No question is there money to re-sign Mario, Foster, Myers and Brisiel while picking up a mid-level #2 WR in free agency. Could easily sign Mario to a worthy deal that has him average 12-15 mill a year and still have enough to pay our other guys.

/This is of course assuming that Bob McNair knows the numbers...

You're not teasing me are you??


If you're correct, this is the best news I've heard all month.

[dalemurphy]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

1. The Colts weren't supposed to implode that early.
At any rate, the Texans D were better against the Colts with Mario than without him. Does the name Dan O. ring a bell to you, Dale?

2. The Dolphins with Henne was doing well offensively; they were no wussies.

3. Against the Saints, the Texans still led 26-17 when Mario bang his knee against Smith. He only played 10 or 11 of the last 36 snaps of the game.
He was double-teamed 4 times. The Saints went with a very quick pass on one play. Mario was neutralized by the OT only once. The rest of the time, he won his battle.

Did he win or lose his battle against Robert Meachem when Meachem sealed him (one on one) on the Sproles 30 yard TD run?

I have to disagree with your assessment of Mario's play in that game.

Regardless, I was excited about the Texans' defense that first month of the season. I, too, thought they were playing well. However, nobody expected that defense to become the elite and dominant defense it became by mid-season, even with Mario healthy. So, that it turned into what it did without Mario, certainly speaks to how replaceable he is.

When the Texans play games without Andre Johnson, Schaub, or Foster, they can still win. However, what doesn't happen is seeing the offense become much better without them... and certainly not over an extended period of time. It's hard to figure out this fan base. On one hand, when TJ Yates performs admirably for a couple weeks, many are ready to cut Schaub loose because he's "injury prone", "not that good", and "non-essential". However, when we lose Mario Williams to the IR for a second consecutive season and the defense becomes GREAT without him, the fan base goes nuts at the idea of losing him. I just don't get it.

[The Cush]

Originally Posted by dalemurphy

Did he win or lose his battle against Robert Meachem when Meachem sealed him (one on one) on the Sproles 30 yard TD run?

LOL, you always bring that play up and because of how you portray it proves you don't evaluate him objectively. Mario or any OLB/DE was set to fail in that position as was the play call. Its 3rd and 3 and we trot out 2 down linemen (Watt and Smith) and 3 linebackers, Mario and Barwin lined up on the outside and Cushing lined up to Barwins left on the LOS (over the Saints left side), and 6 defensive backs. The Saints have a wide receiver and a tight end lined up close to the right and call a sweep play to the right with a pulling guard. Now who do you think is going to win this one? Not only are we outnumbered on the right hand side but we have a defensive package out there catered to stopping the pass.

By the time Sproles controls the ball from the pitch he is already outside of Mario, not beyond Mario, but he is outside and it just takes a small block to get Sproles up the field.

You act like Meachem stands Mario up for a good 3 seconds when in reality he throws a blindside crack back block and holds it for not even a full second. Yea he get doesnt make the play but Sproles runs a sub 4.4, he turned that corner so fast I don't know who you think can just turn to his left, demolish the wide receiver in under .85 seconds and then tackle a guy that fast. It's simple physics that if Mario does not see the block coming and is not anticipating being hit by a guy, his movement is going to be impeded momentarily, even for a split second which is all Sproles (who had a monster season) needs. Stop acting like Meachem was playing right tackle and pancakes Mario in a head on one on one.

And here is how everyone else did on the play..Watt gets stone walled, Allen gets eaten up by the guard, Smith shoots straight up the field its too late for him, and Manning and Nolan run into each other while Cushing and Barwin have no chance due to where they were

[The Cush]

Originally Posted by dalemurphy

Regardless, I was excited about the Texans' defense that first month of the season. I, too, thought they were playing well. However, nobody expected that defense to become the elite and dominant defense it became by mid-season, even with Mario healthy. So, that it turned into what it did without Mario, certainly speaks to how replaceable he is.

I disagree. The Texans showed enough early on I knew they were going to be really, really, REALLY good. Others will agree. Eric Winston was on J&R on 610 last week and was asked the question, what performance stood out to you the most on defense throughout the entire regular season? He said out of all the great performances they had, it was the Steelers game and he knew then that the defense was special.

[beerlover]

bottom line you can't have too many pass rushers. imagine if Texans had kept Babin. they where selected, spaced out every couple years (04,06,09,11) to back fill need, rotate on field, increase production, balance cap space either 1st or 2nd rd. picks, meaning all earned a good chunk of change already. Mario is & will probably always be the kingpin of group setting the bar both contractually & attracting double teams. Guess Luck will get a chance to meet him very soon

[dalemurphy]

Originally Posted by The Cush

I disagree. The Texans showed enough early on I knew they were going to be really, really, REALLY good. Others will agree. Eric Winston was on J&R on 610 last week and was asked the question, what performance stood out to you the most on defense throughout the entire regular season? He said out of all the great performances they had, it was the Steelers game and he knew then that the defense was special.

I was thrilled with the performance of the defense vs. Pittsburgh. However, nobody was expecting the Texans to be the elite defense in the entire NFL. Certainly, they wouldn't have thought the Texans would get there without Mario. But, that's what happened.

[dalemurphy]

Originally Posted by beerlover

[u]bottom line you can't have too many pass rushers[/U]. imagine if Texans had kept Babin. they where selected, spaced out every couple years (04,06,09,11) to back fill need, rotate on field, increase production, balance cap space either 1st or 2nd rd. picks, meaning all earned a good chunk of change already. Mario is & will probably always be the kingpin of group setting the bar both contractually & attracting double teams. Guess Luck will get a chance to meet him very soon

You can have too many if they cost you $12-$18 million per year in the midst of a $120 million salary cap. I'm not opposing the Texans spending an early or mid round pick on a pass rusher and adding one via free agency. I'm opposing the idea of giving a 6 year veteran with an inconsistent motor, who has ended an NFL season on IR as many times as he has reached a double-digit sack total, a contract anywhere in the ballpark of 5 years and $75 million.

[Vinny]

Originally Posted by beerlover

bottom line you can't have too many pass rushers. imagine if Texans had kept Babin. they where selected, spaced out every couple years (04,06,09,11) to back fill need, rotate on field, increase production, balance cap space either 1st or 2nd rd. picks, meaning all earned a good chunk of change already. Mario is & will probably always be the kingpin of group setting the bar both contractually & attracting double teams. Guess Luck will get a chance to meet him very soon

Just look at the Giants. They keep bringing in elite edge guys...spending high picks on them, and they always have a great pass rush (when they are healthy of course).

[BigBull17]

Originally Posted by dalemurphy

Did he win or lose his battle against Robert Meachem when Meachem sealed him (one on one) on the Sproles 30 yard TD run?

I have to disagree with your assessment of Mario's play in that game.

Regardless, I was excited about the Texans' defense that first month of the season. I, too, thought they were playing well. However, nobody expected that defense to become the elite and dominant defense it became by mid-season, even with Mario healthy. So, that it turned into what it did without Mario, certainly speaks to how replaceable he is.

When the Texans play games without Andre Johnson, Schaub, or Foster, they can still win. However, what doesn't happen is seeing the offense become much better without them... and certainly not over an extended period of time. It's hard to figure out this fan base. On one hand, when TJ Yates performs admirably for a couple weeks, many are ready to cut Schaub loose because he's "injury prone", "not that good", and "non-essential". However, when we lose Mario Williams to the IR for a second consecutive season and the defense becomes GREAT without him, the fan base goes nuts at the idea of losing him. I just don't get it.

How about vs Baltimore the first game, those few plays Barwin was damn near unblocked and got nothing? You cant find only the worst (or best) plays from every game and base your whole argument on it. His average is good. He is disruptive, stuffs the run, and is a leader. When he makes big plays, its a game changer. But yeah, he was sealed once by a reciever. Execute him and be done with it.

[BigBull17]

Originally Posted by The Cush

LOL, you always bring that play up and because of how you portray it proves you don't evaluate him objectively. Mario or any OLB/DE was set to fail in that position as was the play call. Its 3rd and 3 and we trot out 2 down linemen (Watt and Smith) and 3 linebackers, Mario and Barwin lined up on the outside and Cushing lined up to Barwins left on the LOS (over the Saints left side), and 6 defensive backs. The Saints have a wide receiver and a tight end lined up close to the right and call a sweep play to the right with a pulling guard. Now who do you think is going to win this one? Not only are we outnumbered on the right hand side but we have a defensive package out there catered to stopping the pass.

By the time Sproles controls the ball from the pitch he is already outside of Mario, not beyond Mario, but he is outside and it just takes a small block to get Sproles up the field.

You act like Meachem stands Mario up for a good 3 seconds when in reality he throws a blindside crack back block and holds it for not even a full second. Yea he get doesnt make the play but Sproles runs a sub 4.4, he turned that corner so fast I don't know who you think can just turn to his left, demolish the wide receiver in under .85 seconds and then tackle a guy that fast. It's simple physics that if Mario does not see the block coming and is not anticipating being hit by a guy, his movement is going to be impeded momentarily, even for a split second which is all Sproles (who had a monster season) needs. Stop acting like Meachem was playing right tackle and pancakes Mario in a head on one on one.

And here is how everyone else did on the play..Watt gets stone walled, Allen gets eaten up by the guard, Smith shoots straight up the field its too late for him, and Manning and Nolan run into each other while Cushing and Barwin have no chance due to where they were

But its all Mario's fault. His work ethic bled over. Duh

[cbs1507]

Originally Posted by dalemurphy

I was thrilled with the performance of the defense vs. Pittsburgh. However, nobody was expecting the Texans to be the elite defense in the entire NFL. Certainly, they wouldn't have thought the Texans would get there without Mario. But, that's what happened.

Here was our opponents we faced without Mario...
Bal 15th total offense 19th in pass 10th run (23 PPG)
Ten 17 total offense 12th pass 31st run (20 PPG)
Jax 32nd total offense 32nd pass 12th run (15 PPG)
Cle 29th total offense 24th pass 28th run (13 PPG)
TB 21st total offense 16th pass 30th run (17 PPG)
Jax 32nd total offense 32nd pass 12th run (15 PPG)
Atl 10th total offense 8th pass 17th run (25 PPG)
Cin 20th total offense 20th pass 19th run (21 PPG)
Car 7th total offense 13th pass 3rd run (25 PPG)
Ind 30th total offense 27th pass 26th run (15 PPG)
Ten 17 total offense 12th pass 31st run (20 PPG)

...maybe YOU did not think we could dominate down the stretch. But anybody who looked at the BIG PICTURE was not surprised by the defense play down the stretch.

Originally Posted by dalemurphy

You can have too many if they cost you $12-$18 million per year in the midst of a $120 million salary cap. I'm not opposing the Texans spending an early or mid round pick on a pass rusher and adding one via free agency. I'm opposing the idea of giving a 6 year veteran with an inconsistent motor, who has ended an NFL season on IR as many times as he has reached a double-digit sack total, a contract anywhere in the ballpark of 5 years and $75 million.

How many is "too many"? I guess according to you it's ZERO, because Mario Williams is our ONLY pass rusher that commands an elite salary.

[dalemurphy]

Originally Posted by BigBull17

How about vs Baltimore the first game, those few plays Barwin was damn near unblocked and got nothing? You cant find only the worst (or best) plays from every game and base your whole argument on it. His average is good. He is disruptive, stuffs the run, and is a leader. When he makes big plays, its a game changer. But yeah, he was sealed once by a reciever. Execute him and be done with it.

Barwin costs about $1 million per year, Mario costs over $14 million per year.

Arguing who is better, is not important. How the Texans can field the best complete team is what I care about.

The Texans have proven to be a great defense without Mario Williams and with Barwin. I'm not sure what your point is. Barwin is under contract and Mario is the free agent. Barwin was a contributor on a defense that blossomed into a great defense. Mario received almost a $1 million per game to sit and watch from the sidelines as Barwin racked up most of his 11.5 sacks.