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Old 01-30-2012   #61
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Default Re: Film study - Mario Williams vs. Colts

Trying to be serious for a minute, Wade uses Mario like some 3-4 DC's use a stud NG- to require attention of two blockers. Same principle this free's up other pass rushers to get sacks & reek havoc on the QB.
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Old 01-30-2012   #62
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Default Re: Film study - Mario Williams vs. Colts

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Personally, I don't understand how anyone can defend Smith, but not like Mario.

Yeah, Mario costs more, but he's worth it & since 2009 it should have been easy to see. Teams run at Antonio Smith... they don't run at Mario. Teams can cut back & be successful when Antonio has contain, not so when Mario is on the backside. Mario finishes, Antonio gets close. I like Antonio, I think he's a fine 3-4 DE. But you can't pay a guy on hustle & you can't build your team around it either. If those guys weren't getting to the QB, or the RB for a loss.... you don't have a very good front 7.

If I'm going to replace either of those two players, it wouldn't be the one that finishes. It wouldn't be the one who has sacked Manning more than any other single player in the last 6 years. It would not be the only guy I saw single handedly take Rothlisberger down, twice in the same game.

If you've got two edge rushers like Barwin, maybe. If you think Reed can be that guy..... maybe. But I'm just not seeing it. Not yet.

TK, that's a bogus comparison. Antonio Smith plays a different position. Even in 2009 and 2010, Antonio was playing on the inside on pass downs. Plus, he usually played on the strong side of the offense, keeping Mario in mostly one on one situations. Is Mario a better edge rusher than Antonio Smith? Sure he is. But, so are 50 or 60 other guys in the NFL. Would Mario be a better interior pass rusher than Antonio? I doubt it. Would Mario be better penetrating the interior line on run plays? No way! All that being said, I'd be thrilled if Mario re-signed with the Texans for 5 years and $35 million.

Also, ask the young players in the front 7: Barwin, Reed, Watt, Mitchell, who their mentor is. They'll tell you, "Antonio Smith", not Mario Williams. Antonio is the better student of the game and an emotional leader. Mario brings none of that. So, perhaps Antonio receives a little less game planning attention than Mario does, but that doesn't mean he isn't actively making his teammates better.
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Old 01-30-2012   #63
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Default Re: Film study - Mario Williams vs. Colts

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Thanks for the answer,

I will not dispute it. You've obviously been watching MW dropping back into zones alot more closely than I have.

Over the last 6 yrs can you give me a guesstimate of how many times MW has dropped into zones on a per game basis?
Not often. They did it more in 2010, under Frank Bush than they did in the first month of this season. Mario can adequately drop into the flat. However, he can't turn his hips, change directions, or do any of the things that Barwin can do and Reed will likely be able to do.
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Old 01-30-2012   #64
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Default Re: Film study - Mario Williams vs. Colts

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Point is Smith made the pro bowl.

He aint chopped liver.
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Old 01-30-2012   #65
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Default Re: Film study - Mario Williams vs. Colts

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Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
Trying to be serious for a minute, Wade uses Mario like some 3-4 DC's use a stud NG- to require attention of two blockers. Same principle this free's up other pass rushers to get sacks & reek havoc on the QB.
Most of the time, the defense was designed to give Mario the pass rushing advantage... not for him to occupy blockers. For instance, he usually flipped to the weak side (away from the TE) in single TE sets. Since he is a good finisher, the Texans worked to put him in advantageous situations.

Other than J.J. Watt, Mario is probably the best finisher when near the QB, though Barwin did a good job of that this year as well.
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Old 01-30-2012   #66
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Default Re: Film study - Mario Williams vs. Colts

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post

Also, ask the young players in the front 7: Barwin, Reed, Watt, Mitchell, who their mentor is. They'll tell you, "Antonio Smith", not Mario Williams. Antonio is the better student of the game and an emotional leader. Mario brings none of that. So, perhaps Antonio receives a little less game planning attention than Mario does, but that doesn't mean he isn't actively making his teammates better.
Really??

Quote:
Watt said defensive end Mario Williams, who missed most of the season because of an injury, has mentored him.

"Hes my locker buddy hes right next to me," Watt said. "He taught me so many things. A, how to handle myself and be a professional. Then B, how to be a dominant pass rusher."
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/137785823.html

Where are you getting Antonio is a better student of the game from?
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Old 01-30-2012   #67
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Default Re: Film study - Mario Williams vs. Colts

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Where are you getting Antonio is a better student of the game from?
Following the two of them closely for the past 3+ years. Listening to them talk football, it is pretty clear. However, watching Mario play, it is crystal clear. Mario is a six year pro and he has not developed one counter pass rush move. Meanwhile, Antonio Smith is great with his hands and has developed many techniques to defeat interior double teams despite weighing about 20 lbs less than Mario without the natural ability of Mario.
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Old 01-30-2012   #68
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Default Re: Film study - Mario Williams vs. Colts

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
Following the two of them closely for the past 3+ years. Listening to them talk football, it is pretty clear. However, watching Mario play, it is crystal clear. Mario is a six year pro and he has not developed one counter pass rush move. Meanwhile, Antonio Smith is great with his hands and has developed many techniques to defeat interior double teams despite weighing about 20 lbs less than Mario without the natural ability of Mario.
Give us some examples of quotes that promote or demote their intellect. You are also the only person in the world that believes Mario only has one pass rush move. If you turn on ESPN, NFL, CBS, Fox and they are talking about Mario, they speak of a variety of ways he can beat his man. Are they just blowing smoke up our asses or do those guys actually know what they are talking about?

And I'm not sure why you would be "thrilled" if he signed for us at 5 yr/35 million when in your own words "he stinks" and been riding that train for quite some time.

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Mario Williams stinks!!

Wow! I know that I have a reputation in this arena. However, I have argued that I wish Mario was healthy because he does make the team better and deeper. I have only been arguing that he isn't worth the money.

Well, I have changed my mind. His absence is one of the reasons this defense has gotten so good. By the way, the Texans are now 7-0 without Mario and the defense is much better.

Mario simply doesn't hustle. He's not physical and only gives good effort when he is put in a situation where he has an advantage and opportunity to make a play. I've never seen a player jog and trot on the field as much as he does. After wathching a physical and aggressive defense the past two months, his laziness really pops on the screen. Those of you who doubt this, go back on watch these games. It is quite infuriating. I am official glad he is on the I.R. Otherwise, our defense would've never turned into what it has. There is no way Rick Smith re-signs this guy! Not gonna happen!

I'll have video by Monday, I hope.
That is after you broke down the film of his play in the first Baltimore game (which he didn't play in), the Pitt. game where he dominated, and the N.O. game where everyone on defense turned in a horrible performance but they all get passes because their names are not Mario Williams.
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Old 01-30-2012   #69
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Default Re: Film study - Mario Williams vs. Colts

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Originally Posted by The Cush View Post
Give us some examples of quotes that promote or demote their intellect. You are also the only person in the world that believes Mario only has one pass rush move. If you turn on ESPN, NFL, CBS, Fox and they are talking about Mario, they speak of a variety of ways he can beat his man. Are they just blowing smoke up our asses or do those guys actually know what they are talking about?

And I'm not sure why you would be "thrilled" if he signed for us at 5 yr/35 million when in your own words "he stinks" and been riding that train for quite some time.



That is after you broke down the film of his play in the first Baltimore game (which he didn't play in), the Pitt. game where he dominated, and the N.O. game where everyone on defense turned in a horrible performance but they all get passes because their names are not Mario Williams.

1. I said I re-watched those games, which I did. On one of the posts, I misspoke about which game (Baltimore/Oakland) Mario was injured in. From that mistake, a number of posters started calling me a "liar" and negative repping me. I wasn't lying nor trying to claim anything that wasn't true. I simply got the game wrong in which he went out with his pectoral injury.

2. That post you allude to is called a "rant"! I'm a fan that likes to see players giving effort on the field. Mario's lack of effort vs. New Orleans was disgraceful! Go back and watch it.

3. I never said Antonio had a better intellect than Mario. I said Antonio is a better student of the game. Cushing is a student of the game, as well, but I won't be confusing him with Einstein.

4. What variety of pass rush moves do you argue Mario exhibits? and by the way, who cares what the jackals on the pregame shows are crowing about?

5. If we could get Mario under a contract at that value, I would be very excited. That deal is small enough that it can be managed and does not threaten the future of the organization.

6. My argument has been consistent since I re-watched those early games. The Texans' identity on defense developed after Mario was on the shelf. I don't think it is a coincidence. I think his absence allowed higher energy and high intensity guys like Cushing and A. Smith to become the clear leaders of the defense. As a result, the defense began to take on their attitude and identity and it blossomed from there.
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Old 01-31-2012   #70
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Default Re: Film study - Mario Williams vs. Colts

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post

4. What variety of pass rush moves do you argue Mario exhibits? and by the way, who cares what the jackals on the pregame shows are crowing about?

6. My argument has been consistent since I re-watched those early games. The Texans' identity on defense developed after Mario was on the shelf. I don't think it is a coincidence. I think his absence allowed higher energy and high intensity guys like Cushing and A. Smith to become the clear leaders of the defense. As a result, the defense began to take on their attitude and identity and it blossomed from there.
4) Mario has shown he can speed rush you off the edge, bull rush you, fake an outside speed rush and move inside, I've even seen him do a spin move a time or two. The reason I bring those "jackals" (guys that have played in the NFL and have a pretty good understanding of football) up because if everyone is saying it but you, don't you think there is some truth to it? They aren't just making stuff up that Mario can't/hasn't displayed just to hype him up, they have no reason to. Those guys will gladly rip and throw people under the bus when they deserve it.

6) Outside of that Saints game, the defense still played great with tenacity early on in the season and were playing lights out. They were also at the disadvantage of the short offseason to prepare and were still getting use to the system but showed the foundation of what they were to become. They were ravenous in the Colts and Steelers game in particular. Cushing and Smith were on the field with Mario too. Mario isn't their Dad who they are afraid to act a certain way around, they weren't like "Ohhh Mario is gone teehee, now we can act like rabid animals!" Smith's intensity and character stayed the same throughout the entire season. Cushing has always shown characteristics of a leader since his rookie season. Wade gave him the opportunity to be the leader by having him relay the plays. He embraced his role as the season went on, that was going to happen whether Mario was out there or not.
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Old 01-31-2012   #71
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Default Re: Film study - Mario Williams vs. Colts

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4) Mario has shown he can speed rush you off the edge, bull rush you, fake an outside speed rush and move inside, I've even seen him do a spin move a time or two. The reason I bring those "jackals" (guys that have played in the NFL and have a pretty good understanding of football) up because if everyone is saying it but you, don't you think there is some truth to it? They aren't just making stuff up that Mario can't/hasn't displayed just to hype him up, they have no reason to. Those guys will gladly rip and throw people under the bus when they deserve it.

6) Outside of that Saints game, the defense still played great with tenacity early on in the season and were playing lights out. They were also at the disadvantage of the short offseason to prepare and were still getting use to the system but showed the foundation of what they were to become. They were ravenous in the Colts and Steelers game in particular. Cushing and Smith were on the field with Mario too. Mario isn't their Dad who they are afraid to act a certain way around, they weren't like "Ohhh Mario is gone teehee, now we can act like rabid animals!" Smith's intensity and character stayed the same throughout the entire season. Cushing has always shown characteristics of a leader since his rookie season. Wade gave him the opportunity to be the leader by having him relay the plays. He embraced his role as the season went on, that was going to happen whether Mario was out there or not.

To say Mario has a "speed rush" is generous. To say he has a "spin move" is nuts!

Team dynamics are a little more complex than your characterization suggests.

I realize that ex-football players understand the game but that doesn't mean they are focused or concerned enough to be accurate and thoughtful with their analysis of it.


In six weeks we will know. I'd give 2-1 odds that Mario doesn't return to the Texans in 2012. Still, with the monster deal he is likely to sign, it may never be clear what the Texans were willing to pay him. I expect it to be way, way less than market value though.
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Old 01-31-2012   #72
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Default Re: Film study - Mario Williams vs. Colts

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
To say Mario has a "speed rush" is generous. To say he has a "spin move" is nuts!

Team dynamics are a little more complex than your characterization suggests.

I realize that ex-football players understand the game but that doesn't mean they are focused or concerned enough to be accurate and thoughtful with their analysis of it.


In six weeks we will know. I'd give 2-1 odds that Mario doesn't return to the Texans in 2012. Still, with the monster deal he is likely to sign, it may never be clear what the Texans were willing to pay him. I expect it to be way, way less than market value though.
I've seen every single Texans game (several of them more than 3 or 4 times) that has been played and to refresh my memory I was watching Mario videos on Youtube and several of his sacks come off of him just speed rushing the tackle, beating them around the corner. It's not a Robert Mathis or Clay Matthews level of speed but he has that ability in his repetoire. There's a clip of him using a spin move to sack Peyton.

I love Mario but I don't think he's going to return based on the circumstances of the guys we have, the guys we need to resign, and our cap situation. I'm just not going to sell him short of his abilities or what he has done on his way out like some people will (dalemurphy)
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Old 01-31-2012   #73
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Default Re: Film study - Mario Williams vs. Colts

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1. I said I re-watched those games, which I did. On one of the posts, I misspoke about which game (Baltimore/Oakland) Mario was injured in. From that mistake, a number of posters started calling me a "liar" and negative repping me. I wasn't lying nor trying to claim anything that wasn't true. I simply got the game wrong in which he went out with his pectoral injury.

2. That post you allude to is called a "rant"! I'm a fan that likes to see players giving effort on the field. Mario's lack of effort vs. New Orleans was disgraceful! Go back and watch it.

3. I never said Antonio had a better intellect than Mario. I said Antonio is a better student of the game. Cushing is a student of the game, as well, but I won't be confusing him with Einstein.

4. What variety of pass rush moves do you argue Mario exhibits? and by the way, who cares what the jackals on the pregame shows are crowing about?

5. If we could get Mario under a contract at that value, I would be very excited. That deal is small enough that it can be managed and does not threaten the future of the organization.

6. My argument has been consistent since I re-watched those early games. The Texans' identity on defense developed after Mario was on the shelf. I don't think it is a coincidence. I think his absence allowed higher energy and high intensity guys like Cushing and A. Smith to become the clear leaders of the defense. As a result, the defense began to take on their attitude and identity and it blossomed from there.
I don't know what you mean about this "identity"... but the defense has been playing lights out since the start of the season.

Week 1-Colts: Allowed 236 yards, 7 points, 3 sacks, 2 turnovers
Week 2-Dolphins: Allowed 306 yards, 13 points, 2 sacks, 2 turnovers
Week 4-Steelers: Allowed 296 yards, 10 points, 5 sacks, 1 turnover

That's pretty damn good!

Sure, we had a hiccup in Week 3 against the league's top rated offense. But it's still worth mentioning we held the Saints below their season average in yards gained.

Arguing that we don't need Mario is understandable. Arguing that we should use that money elsewhere is a valid point. I think you lose people on this board, though, when you make statements like #6... and claim the defense is better w/o Mario.
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Old 01-31-2012   #74
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Default Re: Film study - Mario Williams vs. Colts

Same old same old from the same posters. No one in the entire nfl lets go of a 27 yr old pass rusher that has the production mario has. No team, not even the cheap ones. When teams let go of guys, its because they're over 30 and declining.

Smart teams find a way to pay their best players period. qb,lt,de are the highest paid positions in the league for a reason, not accident. Now if some think mario is a luxury and that wade can just scheme his way through it, keep thinking that. This year, smith got going, because of the turn to mario. Once williams went out, smith got the attention and barwin started to click. Once they started to adjust to barwin, watt started coming. What my point? Williams will make it impossible to block everyone. Wade,and every dc in the league wants a mario williams and thats just not me talking. The texans have enough dead salaries on the books to get a deal done.
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Old 01-31-2012   #75
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Default Re: Film study - Mario Williams vs. Colts

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I don't know what you mean about this "identity"... but the defense has been playing lights out since the start of the season.

Week 1-Colts: Allowed 236 yards, 7 points, 3 sacks, 2 turnovers
Week 2-Dolphins: Allowed 306 yards, 13 points, 2 sacks, 2 turnovers
Week 4-Steelers: Allowed 296 yards, 10 points, 5 sacks, 1 turnover

That's pretty damn good!

Sure, we had a hiccup in Week 3 against the league's top rated offense. But it's still worth mentioning we held the Saints below their season average in yards gained.

Arguing that we don't need Mario is understandable. Arguing that we should use that money elsewhere is a valid point. I think you lose people on this board, though, when you make statements like #6... and claim the defense is better w/o Mario.

The Texans finished the season, defensively, giving up 263 yards per game. During the 4 games with Mario, the defense gave up about 325 yards per game, which is more than 80 yards per game more than it did in the 14 contests without Mario. While I realize the Saints game skews the numbers some, realize the Colts and the Dolphins are included in that four game stretch.

By the way, I was not trying to argue the defense wouldn't be good with Mario, only that it really took off without him. I'm not sure how anyone could honestly dispute that. The fact is that the defense was much better without Mario. That is a factual statement. We can disagree whether his absence played a role in their improvement or not. However, anyone arguing that he is essential to the success of the defense or the team simply isn't dealing with reality. 14 games without him (minus one quarter) and this defense was the best in the NFL... hands down. 14 games, by the way, is a pretty good sample size. I'm not making the argument based on 2 or 3 games.
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Old 01-31-2012   #76
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Default Re: Film study - Mario Williams vs. Colts

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By the way, we can't trade Mario. We sign him to a long term deal or he signs somewhere else.
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This is just not true. Why would you even write that?
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The only way Mario can be traded is if we franchise tag him. We can not franchise tag him because we don't have the $17-$22 million of room under the cap to do so. Therefore, we can't trade him. His contract is expired. We have no rights to him.
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That doesn't matter until just before the start of the league year when the salary cap is enforced. Somewhere around the 4th preseason game is when all teams must be under the cap. In the meantime, teams can re-work deals and sign players and go over the cap while they get things in order. It is possible to do a tag and trade deal, it's just difficult given that it is a 16.56 million or more gamble on him.
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That is correct. I can not imagine the Texans front office would make the kind of gamble that you are proposing. If the Texans did tender Mario, they could get stuck with his contract and have to obliterate the team as a result.
So when I call your statement false you refute it, when Dutch calls it false you flip your stance and agree? You should just stop using the argument that Mario is untradeable. It is not accurate whether or not you think they actually would do it. At this point it is still available to the Texans.
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Old 01-31-2012   #77
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Default Re: Film study - Mario Williams vs. Colts

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Also, ask the young players in the front 7: Barwin, Reed, Watt, Mitchell, who their mentor is. They'll tell you, "Antonio Smith", not Mario Williams.
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Really??

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Watt said defensive end Mario Williams, who missed most of the season because of an injury, has mentored him.

"Hes my locker buddy hes right next to me," Watt said. "He taught me so many things. A, how to handle myself and be a professional. Then B, how to be a dominant pass rusher."
Haha! Dale. Just stop, please. You are really starting to paint yourself into a corner.
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Old 01-31-2012   #78
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Default Re: Film study - Mario Williams vs. Colts

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
The Texans finished the season, defensively, giving up 263 yards per game. During the 4 games with Mario, the defense gave up about 325 yards per game, which is more than 80 yards per game more than it did in the 14 contests without Mario. While I realize the Saints game skews the numbers some, realize the Colts and the Dolphins are included in that four game stretch.

By the way, I was not trying to argue the defense wouldn't be good with Mario, only that it really took off without him. I'm not sure how anyone could honestly dispute that. The fact is that the defense was much better without Mario. That is a factual statement. We can disagree whether his absence played a role in their improvement or not. However, anyone arguing that he is essential to the success of the defense or the team simply isn't dealing with reality. 14 games without him (minus one quarter) and this defense was the best in the NFL... hands down. 14 games, by the way, is a pretty good sample size. I'm not making the argument based on 2 or 3 games.
Dale, I remember when your argument was that Mario is not that good.

I remember when you said the team was better without him.

Now you're saying that he does make the team better but he's not worth the money he will likely get.

We're all entitled to change our minds, but I'm curious what has led you to change your mind between now and week 7 of the regular season?
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Old 01-31-2012   #79
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Default Re: Film study - Mario Williams vs. Colts

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
The Texans finished the season, defensively, giving up 263 yards per game. During the 4 games with Mario, the defense gave up about 325 yards per game, which is more than 80 yards per game more than it did in the 14 contests without Mario. While I realize the Saints game skews the numbers some, realize the Colts and the Dolphins are included in that four game stretch.

By the way, I was not trying to argue the defense wouldn't be good with Mario, only that it really took off without him. I'm not sure how anyone could honestly dispute that. The fact is that the defense was much better without Mario. That is a factual statement.
Could it be that the defense was implementing a new system and they got better as time went on? Or did you think they would get worse in the new system, but Mario exiting changed all that?

There are alot more variables at work here than just with Mario and without. And if you dont see that then I am not sure what to tell you.

Also stop speaking out both sides of your mouth. Sometimes you say Mario is a waste of space and doesnt even make the team better. Other times you say you want him back and would be ok with giving him 35 million... Your words.
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Old 01-31-2012   #80
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Default Re: Film study - Mario Williams vs. Colts

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Could it be that the defense was implementing a new system and they got better as time went on? Or did you think they would get worse in the new system, but Mario exiting changed all that?

There are alot more variables at work here than just with Mario and without. And if you dont see that then I am not sure what to tell you.

Also stop speaking out both sides of your mouth. Sometimes you say Mario is a waste of space and doesnt even make the team better. Other times you say you want him back and would be ok with giving him 35 million... Your words.
Bingo!!!!!!!!! and why dale's whole post
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