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Old 12-21-2011   #61
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Default Re: Anyone else concerned about Offense

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Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
What the hell are you guys smoking?? Lol!

What is all this talk about TJ Yates and Schaub and a QB controversy??

TJ Yates hasn't shown anything to suggest that he can supplant Schaub right now. Not even close. Once again, I'll remind people that Schaub is a top 10 QB with several 4,000 yard seasons on his belt and moves this offense up and down the field better than the majority of QB's in this league. TJ Yates is an unproven rookie that got the benefit of playing with a team that was on a hot streak with the best defense in the NFL and the best running game in the NFL and won two games as a starter playing mainly as a game manager. He had a nice comeback drive and has had shown potential. I'm happy to see that. But to sit here and even suggest that their should be a QB controversy going into next season based off of what we've seen so far by Yates is ridiculous and nothing more than being overly optimistic in a rookie that has yet to show that he is anywhere near running an offense like what Schaub has done for years.
So you are not ready?

Remember the Schaub vs Sage? I am predicting that this conversation will continue into next season because of two things:

1. Schaub may be out at the beginning of the season. Opens the door for "its TJ's job to lose."
2. TJ plays not terrible. That's all he needs to do for people to get on his wagon. It will be the "he has upside, younger, etc."

I never said it should happen or calling for it, but I think it will just because its the nature of things. So start pulling your hair out now. I personally don't care as long as we win at the best level. If its TJ cool. Great story. If its Schaub cool. Great story.

Now if TJ sucks and Schaub is healthy its not going to happen but I think Schaub will miss some time. I still don't know about TJ, but he hasn't been terrible so far by some people's accounts.
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Old 12-21-2011   #62
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Default Re: Anyone else concerned about Offense

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Originally Posted by TexansBull View Post
2. TJ plays not terrible. That's all he needs to do for people to get on his wagon. It will be the "he has upside, younger, etc."
Hell, if Tj has one great throw... sets us up for an Arian Foster TD.... & the run game & defense plays lights out to win our first play-off game, we'll have a frenzy.

If we win a play-off game & Yates has a 53 QBR, they'll still want him as our starter.

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Old 12-21-2011   #63
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Default Re: Anyone else concerned about Offense

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Hell, if Tj has one great throw... sets us up for an Arian Foster TD.... & the run game & defense plays lights out to win our first play-off game, we'll have a frenzy.

If we win a play-off game & Yates has a 53 QBR, they'll still want him as our starter.

Exactly. Be prepared. Like I said, I am indifferent but will enjoy the show.
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Old 12-21-2011   #64
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Default Re: Anyone else concerned about Offense

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
If we win a play-off game & Yates has a 53 QBR, they'll still want him as our starter.
Yes there will be much discussion, a frenzy even. And "they" will still be wrong.
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Old 12-21-2011   #65
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Default Re: Anyone else concerned about Offense

Well maybe if yates sucks it up in the playoff game we will be seeing. Jake or garcia. Lol
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Old 12-22-2011   #66
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Default Re: Anyone else concerned about Offense

Even if Yates wins us the freakin Super Bowl, Schaub is still Week 1 starter if he is healthy by then.
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Old 12-22-2011   #67
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Default Re: Anyone else concerned about Offense

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Originally Posted by Texan_Bill View Post
Schaub doesn't drop straight back on a play action pass nearly as often as Yates does which tells me his (Yates) vision downfield is not nearly as good as Schaub's. Schaub can roll out and see three areas of the field. Yates drops straight back more often because it cuts the field into two rather than three parts?

That said ask yourself another question and answer it honestly. When Yates does roll-out how often do you see him throw back across the field? How often does he throw in front of him or even a little towards the middle of the field.

I'm not saying that it's a drastic difference but more of subtle difference in play calling for Yates v. Schaub.

I'm not going to break down video because I do have a job, but I know what my eyes see. So let's not turn this into the "Great Debate", because I'm not interested.
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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
I'm not sure I understand your point, Bill.

Whether the QB drops straight back or rolls out depend on the play call.

Where the QB throws the ball on the roll-out also depends on the play call (and the pass pattern the receivers are running.)

I have no problem with where TJ was going with the ball.
And yes, I did see him throw back a little toward the inside from where he was going.

I won't ask you to go back and review anything.
I do have a job also (for a long while now) but I do pretty much nothing else besides that but watching football so maybe tonight I can take a long look at those plays (not that I haven't watched them at least half a dozen times already).

Maybe I'll see what you saw; but I need to make sure what your points are first, so please clarify them for me one more time please!
OK, Bill.
After spending 5 hours rewatching 4 games, matching them up wih the game books for quick reference to pass play, I think I can see what you're getting at.

However, your main point didn't show up on any of those game films.
There wasn't any naked bootleg where the QB had time to set up for a transcontinental pass (all the way back to the other side) or a pass to the middle.
(There were highlights of a few plays from other games that demonstrate this, but there was none in these four games.)

An exception that could have happened (but didn't) was in the Bengals game, where TJ had the chance for a quick set up to throw to OD in the middle of the field, but TJ was too gung ho on the sprint out and didn't see OD.
He also didn't see JJ who was also open along the side line.
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Old 12-22-2011   #68
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Default Re: Anyone else concerned about Offense

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
OK, Bill.
After spending 5 hours rewatching 4 games, matching them up wih the game books for quick reference to pass play, I think I can see what you're getting at.

However, your main point didn't show up on any of those game films.
There wasn't any naked bootleg where the QB had time to set up for a transcontinental pass (all the way back to the other side) or a pass to the middle.
(There were highlights of a few plays from other games that demonstrate this, but there was none in these four games.)

An exception that could have happened (but didn't) was in the Bengals game, where TJ had the chance for a quick set up to throw to OD in the middle of the field, but TJ was too gung ho on the sprint out and didn't see OD.
He also didn't see JJ who was also open along the side line.
That said, let me count the numbers for you (I don't think I missed any).

In the Panthers game, there were 3 calls for TJ to roll out.
The only one play he had a chance to throw across the body was when he rolled left and pass to a TE.

In the Bengals game, there were 5 roll-out/boot leg plays called.
None had an opportunity.

Against the Bucs, Schaub had 4 plays called for him, with 2 throws near the middle. However, both of these plays were away from the short side of the field. Schaub had plenty of room to roll-out and plenty of time to look for the receivers who were open (Both were short passes.)

Against the Browns, Schaub had 2 plays called for him, with no such opportunity.

True that TJ had more attempts than Schaub in the 2 games vs. 2 games; however, there weren't anything to differentiate even after we pro-rate the number of attempts.

I can see your point, but it wasn't relevant/significant in this sample size.

My point is still there: It depends on the play call.
It seems more like we scheme based on the opponents.
There wasn't any call for neither TJ nor Schaub to set up camp and throw from the bootleg in these four games.
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Old 12-22-2011   #69
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Default Re: Anyone else concerned about Offense

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Originally Posted by TejasTom View Post
76 were you at the game? Because the cameras usually follow the ball and the open guy doesn't necessarily make it on TV.

I don't know if I would say most plays, but definitely several plays guys were wide open down field (no one with 10 yards or more) and Yates was checking down.
No, TjT, I was not at the game.

I watched each play in slow motion several times.
When I need to, I take screen shots of each play (anywhere from 20 to 150 shots).
I look at the receivers patterns.
I look at the coverage.
I try to see how the offense tries to attack the coverage and vice versa.
Why this guy runs this route, the next guy runs that route, and so forth.
I watch the QB's read progression.
I take into accounts what the analysts said.
(In this case, both Ron Pitts and Charles Davis used to play DB).

On one play, for example, one receiver could run a clearing route for another.
As soon as the QB saw that the deep receiver had taken away coverage that frees up his real target, the QB would go there with the ball.

That's the essence of the WCO from what I learned.

You probably know this already, but it can't hurt to revisit.
Kubiak's version is a ball-control offense that strive for balance between running and passing.
Not only that, it aims to control the clock.
Occasionally, we will look for a big play.
Preferably, however, we like to go the length of the field in 15 or more plays, eating as much time as possible.
(Take what the defense gives you; stretching the field horizontally rather than trying to stretch the field vertically).
Especially with a RB corp (including Casey) that can catch balls out of the backfield.

I came back and rewatched the first half again.
I'm pretty positive that there was nothing more that Yates could have done in the first quarter.
In the second quarter, there were 3 or 4 instances that we cannot see downfield.
The coverage was supposed to be there (by design).
If there was some blatant mis-assignment by the DBs, I can't see it.
At the same time, I don't hear neither analyst mention anything of the sort.

They were still possibilities, but doubtful (to me).
Perhaps we can come back to them next week.
I can bring up the plays with screen shots.
Some of you who went to the game may be able to tell us something we can't see.

I didn't have much time to revisit the second half in details (you can see why after my posts responding to TB.)

Last edited by 76Texan; 12-22-2011 at 05:18 AM.
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Old 12-22-2011   #70
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Default Re: Anyone else concerned about Offense

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Originally Posted by cuppacoffee View Post
Showing vanilla O the next two games.

Kubes is putting in a special O for TJ, making use of his 'better than Schaub' athletic abilities .

Gonna suprise everyone in the playoffs with previously unseen offensive plays.

Championship!

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

Great thought... Knowing Kubiak this could be exactly what he is doing.
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Old 12-22-2011   #71
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Default Re: Anyone else concerned about Offense

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Walter went out of bound on a catch (Yates likely didn't see it???)
You know that was a major drive killer and to be honest I am completely baffled at that rule. Now I can understand if an offensive player intentionally runs out of bounds to gain an advantage then comes back in for the catch being a penalty, but if he is forced out of bounds by a defender, why should it be called a penalty? Why should the defender get an advantage using the sideline to nullify the player?

If that is the rule then why not instruct all CB's to push the outside WR's out of bounds within the first 5 yards of their routes to nullify outside threats leaving the CB to cover other players without worry that the WR pushed out of bounds could touch the ball first?

Perhaps TJ didn't see him go out of bounds, but more likely that with all the things going through his head, (coverage, check down, pass rush) that rule was not one of them.

Perhaps someone can explain to us why that rule is in place, and why there is no exception if the player is forced out by the defender.
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Old 12-22-2011   #72
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Default Re: Anyone else concerned about Offense

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Even if Yates wins us the freakin Super Bowl, Schaub is still Week 1 starter if he is healthy by then.
Why?
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Old 12-22-2011   #73
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Default Re: Anyone else concerned about Offense

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Originally Posted by Nitrofish View Post
You know that was a major drive killer and to be honest I am completely baffled at that rule. Now I can understand if an offensive player intentionally runs out of bounds to gain an advantage then comes back in for the catch being a penalty, but if he is forced out of bounds by a defender, why should it be called a penalty? Why should the defender get an advantage using the sideline to nullify the player?

If that is the rule then why not instruct all CB's to push the outside WR's out of bounds within the first 5 yards of their routes to nullify outside threats leaving the CB to cover other players without worry that the WR pushed out of bounds could touch the ball first?

Perhaps TJ didn't see him go out of bounds, but more likely that with all the things going through his head, (coverage, check down, pass rush) that rule was not one of them.

Perhaps someone can explain to us why that rule is in place, and why there is no exception if the player is forced out by the defender.
I'm fine with the rule. What you saw, was the difference between Andre Johnson & Kevin Walter. Andre would win that battle.

To me, the WRs have too much of the game in their favor. This is a good one for the CBs..... even the force out rule, before a receiver could catch the ball & it would be called a catch if the DB pushed him out of bounds before getting his feet in bounds. Now, if he's pushed out, it's not a catch.

You're right, more DBs need to be taught to use that sideline, especially if the WR lines up that close to the sideline & wants an outside route (which KDub wanted). The DB has 5 yards to force him out...... If a catch is made, that DB needs to be there to force the WR out..

Think about it though. The DB has no idea where the WR wants to go, when the WR will make a break, when to expect the ball. The DB has to defend the out, the comeback, the curl, the slant, the post, the 9, the skinny post, the fade & he can't touch him after 5 yards, can't hit a defenseless receiver...

Nah, giving the sideline to the DB is a good move to me.
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Old 12-22-2011   #74
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Default Re: Anyone else concerned about Offense

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Why?
Because he is clearly better to anyone other than Ray Charles.
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Old 12-22-2011   #75
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Default Re: Anyone else concerned about Offense

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Even if Yates wins us the freakin Super Bowl, Schaub is still Week 1 starter if he is healthy by then.
If Yates won the SB, he'd become the starter and make no mistake about that.
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Old 12-22-2011   #76
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Default Re: Anyone else concerned about Offense

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Because he is clearly better to anyone other than Ray Charles.
How do you know this?

The man said if Yates wins us the Super Bowl, while I understand the QB getting too much credit/blame, but if someone says "Yates wins us a Super Bowl" I'm taking that to mean Yates' play won the game.


If Yates is playing at a level good enough to get us to & win the Super Bowl (meaning he is playing much better than he is now), then why would you not start him?
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Old 12-22-2011   #77
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Default Re: Anyone else concerned about Offense

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Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
If Yates won the SB, he'd become the starter and make no mistake about that.
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How do you know this?

The man said if Yates wins us the Super Bowl, while I understand the QB getting too much credit/blame, but if someone says "Yates wins us a Super Bowl" I'm taking that to mean Yates' play won the game.


If Yates is playing at a level good enough to get us to & win the Super Bowl (meaning he is playing much better than he is now), then why would you not start him?
Depends on how the games play out....

I suspect that if Yates plays lights out and is truly responsible for us getting to then winning the Super Bowl with back-to-back 250-300 yd/multi-TD games, then you have a very strong argument for T.J. coming back as the 2012 starter.

OTOH, if Yates is mostly a caretaker/game manager and the real reason we won those games was due to 250+ yds and multi-TD games from Foster & Tate plus defensive shutdowns, takeaways, and scoring, then most likely Schaub gets his job back come next season.

Poor Matty HotTub... he's no longer even in the equation...
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Old 12-22-2011   #78
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Default Re: Anyone else concerned about Offense

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Depends on how the games play out....

I suspect that if Yates plays lights out and is truly responsible for us getting to then winning the Super Bowl with back-to-back 250-300 yd/multi-TD games, then you have a very strong argument for T.J. coming back as the 2012 starter.

OTOH, if Yates is mostly a caretaker/game manager and the real reason we won those games was due to 250+ yds and multi-TD games from Foster & Tate plus defensive shutdowns, takeaways, and scoring, then most likely Schaub gets his job back come next season.
That's the way I see it.
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Old 12-22-2011   #79
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Default Re: Anyone else concerned about Offense

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Originally Posted by ObsiWan View Post
Depends on how the games play out....

I suspect that if Yates plays lights out and is truly responsible for us getting to then winning the Super Bowl with back-to-back 250-300 yd/multi-TD games, then you have a very strong argument for T.J. coming back as the 2012 starter.

OTOH, if Yates is mostly a caretaker/game manager and the real reason we won those games was due to 250+ yds and multi-TD games from Foster & Tate plus defensive shutdowns, takeaways, and scoring, then most likely Schaub gets his job back come next season.

Poor Matty HotTub... he's no longer even in the equation...
Its a "was he more like trent dilfer or more like tom brady his first year?" type of thing. If the team won in spite of him we go with schaub. If TJ plays lights out then schaub may be the back up.
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Old 12-22-2011   #80
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Default Re: Anyone else concerned about Offense

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Originally Posted by TexansBull View Post
Its a "was he more like trent dilfer or more like tom brady his first year?" type of thing. If the team won in spite of him we go with schaub. If TJ plays lights out then schaub may be the back up.
Sounds reasonable.

Not very likely, but reasonable.
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