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Old 05-01-2005   #61
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anyone that thinks we should have drafted a tackle in this draft with our first day picks are silly, capers already said the line would be returning in tact, mckinney as of now is the only one i think needs to be replaced, Wand was in his first year starting, and in a new scheme then he had been learning the year prior.. if he still has problems then fine, look to replace him... but im not looking for his head quite yet.. next is the fact that there were quality tackles, every analyst i have ever heard speak said that this years OL draft picks were all not exactly superb, that next years talent will be far greater then this years... so why take a avg at best OL, when we already have avg OL... instead we went the right route and picked up players we felt could make impacts at important positions... finally back to David Carr, he is not going anywhere, barring any bad injuries, knock on wood, he will be a sight to watch this year
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Old 05-01-2005   #62
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I don't care how the line gets better, whether it is through players improving of whatever, I just want it to improve FAST. Also anybody that questions Carr I dare you to bring up 3 qbs (you can go through the whole history of the league) that have suffered anything close to the # of sacks Carr has suffered and show me the #s they have put up, cause I garuantee you it isn't anything better Carr has put up. He just needs protection.
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Old 05-01-2005   #63
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i call this one, lets see what i can find, i wanna see some of these comparisons
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Old 05-01-2005   #64
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please do im curious to see the numbers myself
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Old 05-01-2005   #65
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ill do it tomorrow, been trying, pretty tough to see who has had the most sacks in their first three seasons, but ill keep looking... tomorow, im tired
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Old 05-01-2005   #66
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I understand I'm pretty tired also, I wouldn't even know where to dig stats up like that
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Old 05-01-2005   #67
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he will be a sight to watch this year
he was a sight to watch last year, it just wasn't a pretty sight.

I am on the fence with Carr. I saw plenty of reason's to blame the line play, early in the year. But last part of the year I saw plenty of reason's to blame Carr directly. Perhaps he was a bit 'shell shocked' from the hits during the first part of the season. Sometime soon he has to get more confidence in his line, and they have to know that he is going to step up INTO the pocket they forming and not run to his right everytime he sees a Defensive lineman coming, even if he is actually being blocked effectively. Carr had a bit too much 'flight of fright' runs last year and I would personally say about half of them were not necessary. Some of those hits he brings on himself.

I am looking forward to the line gelling together for an entire year for the first time ever, appeared some of that was happening at the end of last season. I am also hoping that it will calm Carr down some and make him more eager to step into the pocket and get that extra second or two that he seems to need to find his open receiver. One thing is for sure, Carr will never be compared to any QB who has ever played as being one with a 'quick release'.
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Old 05-01-2005   #68
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The only problem with that is many have agreed that pocket was collaspeing from the center postion. Mckinney rarely was able to hold his ground and on many occasions was driven straight back into Carr (obviously the coaching staff noticed also, seeing how the only Olineman the drafted was a center), so how do you expect him to step up into a pocket that collasping right on him. That is why on many occasions he took of running, becuase he was fushed out of it and many times ran right into more pressure from the edge rush. There were many sacks pinned on Wand just for that reason. Another thing is how do you expect him to trust in his line. Trust is gained over time not after a game or so. Just becuase he might get solid protection on one play doesn't mean he is going to expect it on the next. The line was too inconsistent last year. Come to think of it inconsistentcy is what our major problem is. We also had a inconsistent rb and a inconsistent defense (especially on third downs)
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Old 05-01-2005   #69
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we also had an inconsistant QB.

You may be, and it certainly seems so, a huge Carr fan. I'm not knocking the guy, but he ain't no Marino, or Montana either. Not by a LOOOONG shot. Carr called plenty of plays last year at the line that didn't work for diddly. He ran into the Defensive right tackle enough times to make you wonder if he was a sadist and enjoyed eating dirt. Alot of times he didn't have to. Was the pocket collapsing, yeah it sometimes did. Yet other times it was a textbook pocket and Carr still didn't step into it. Biggest knock I actually have on Carr is he has not pocket awareness. Both from the sense of recognizing where the pocket is and how to step into it and from the perspective of where the pass rush is coming from. He simply doesn't have an awareness of who is around him and where the sack seems to be coming from.

the question was how long are we going to give Carr. My answer would be next season. If he doesn't seem to improve DRAMATICALLY next season, then I would say he is and always will be an average, at best, NFL QB. Which is not necessarily a bad thing in and unto itself. But he won't be getting into the HOF that way either.

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Old 05-01-2005   #70
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Thegr8fan, get the stats from the first three years of some of the quarterbacks you considered to be good and compare them to Carr. Verry seldom do quarterbacks come into their own bye their 3'rd year. I think you'll find his stats to be verry simular to people such as Joe Montana, Troy Aikman,....etc,etc. I'm not saying that he's anywear near the quarterback they were. But the fact is that throwing out a verdict on a quarterback in the NFL within the first 3 or 4 years is totaly ludicrist. Perfect example, Drew Breese, and Bret Favre. Imagine, the people in Atlanta were anxious to see Favre leave. The Chargers drafted a quarteback that wanted nothing to do with them, while they had a probowler siting in their livingroom, talk about a waste of 40 million dollars, on a rookie backup.
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Old 05-01-2005   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegr8fan
we also had an inconsistant QB.

You may be, and it certainly seems so, a huge Carr fan. I'm not knocking the guy, but he ain't no Marino, or Montana either. Not by a LOOOONG shot. Carr called plenty of plays last year at the line that didn't work for diddly. He ran into the Defensive right tackle enough times to make you wonder if he was a sadist and enjoyed eating dirt. Alot of times he didn't have to. Was the pocket collapsing, yeah it sometimes did. Yet other times it was a textbook pocket and Carr still didn't step into it. Biggest knock I actually have on Carr is he has not pocket awareness. Both from the sense of recognizing where the pocket is and how to step into it and from the perspective of where the pass rush is coming from. He simply doesn't have an awareness of who is around him and where the sack seems to be coming from.

the question was how long are we going to give Carr. My answer would be next season. If he doesn't seem to improve DRAMATICALLY next season, then I would say he is and always will be an average, at best, NFL QB. Which is not necessarily a bad thing in and unto itself. But he won't be getting into the HOF that way either.
First of all I'm not some huge Carr fan and I know he was inconsistent at times, AS IS EVERY OTHER YOUNG QB, even the great Bret farve is inconsistent at times. There is nothing more I would rather do than to be able to judge Carr, TRUST ME I WOULD LOVE TO BE ABLE TO FAIRLY EVELUATE HIS PROGRESS, but as of right now I see him as a boxer standing in the middle of the ring with one hand tied behind his back, with the oline being the strap. We are never going to know what we have until we're able to see what he can do behind a avg. oline. It would be a totaly different story if I was a lion fan. They have a qb that has had excellent protection and all he has been able to do is put up #s par to a qb that has started on a expansion team who has had to pick himself off the ground 140 times. I think it is pretty stupid to think that the qb position is some kind of superman that can just leap and over blitzing defenders and put up great numbers behind a insufficient line. He and everyother qb is only going to be as good as the parts around him. Also lets look at what a sack does to a drive, 8 times out of 10 it is a drive KILLER! Ill even give you more slack lets say out of those 140 sacks a 100 of them ended a drive, how much of those 100's of drives could of been touchdowns and not only are those sacks killing our production, they are putting our defense in a tight spot and giving the opposition short fields, which then cuases us to fall behind early in games, which then allows the oppositions defense to just pin their ears back and tee off on our qb, Who still has the same insufficient oline he has had the past three years. The last of our problems is the qb position. Next year if they do "Gel" and god they better OR HEADS WILL ROLL and only surrender like 20 sacks and if he doesn't improve ill be the first one to throw him under the bus.
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Old 05-01-2005   #72
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I have done the stats thing, many times. Carr loses when you do that. Think about it though and the stats for Carr's first 3 years are not as applicable as other QB's are cause most of them didn't start their careers with expansion teams. If the Texans were an established team and Carr had started THEN, you could compare the stats on a one-to-one basis. That situation doesn't apply here, IMHO.

Carr is not a bad QB. He ain't a great one either. Out of the 32 starting QB's in the league, I would say he is right about #16, average. Could be worse, could be better. Will he improve, maybe. Course right now the chances are 50/50 that he will improve, but they are the same that he won't either. I give him one more year, simply due to the fact that he is playing on an expansion team, to show me that he is capable of becoming a gr8 QB. If he doesn't do it next season then I will quite simply consider him as being what he has shown up to this point in his career and that is an average QB. Alot of teams do good things with average QB's. So it isn't like I am anti-Carr. I just ain't on the 'Carr is the next coming of Montana' bandwaggon either. By the 3rd year, you either 'get it' or you are relagated to being a backup QB in the NFL for the rest of your life and the team starts to look for their next Superstar Marino, Elway, Montana.

Heck looking at it from a Glass half full perspective, he at least wasn't a #1 QB pick that was a total flop, as has happened in the past.
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Old 05-01-2005   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegr8fan
Carr is not a bad QB. He ain't a great one either. Out of the 32 starting QB's in the league, I would say he is right about #16, average. Could be worse, could be better. Will he improve, maybe.
That's fair. We will just put you in the camp that does not "believe" carr will be great.

Trophies are coming to those of us who do.
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Old 05-01-2005   #74
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Quote:
Carr has a Quick release
-false
Quote:
Carr has a Strong arm
-true
Quote:
Carr is a good decision maker
-false
Quote:
Carr doesnt have Happy Feet
-false
Quote:
Carr is going to be a great QB
- neither

how did I do on the true and false parts?

quick release? yeah that would account for the 140 sacks in the NFL where the ref's won't count it a sack unless you don't pump fake it once, not tuck it in, fling it out as you are going down, or any of the other various QB tricks the NFL lets them get away with to avoid the sack charge. Your seriously kidding me about this one right?

Strong arm- yep one of the strongest in the league. Now if he could just show it during the game and not during warm ups.

Good decision maker- sorry but given his history of changing of the play at the line's ability to get almost no yardage out of it, I would say his decision making ability is severly in question.

Happy feet- only person I know of who's feet move more is MC Hammer when he is doing the Hammertime dance.

Carr is GOING to be a great QB- care to name a date on when that is going to happen? I give him one more year to impress me with that idea. After that I will totally give up on it, as it will become an absurdity. Good QB, yep. Great QB, not yet.
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Old 05-01-2005   #75
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Carr Bomb, I am really curious how you can seem to evaluate the O-line as a unit, you can even break it down to individuals, naming McKinney as the prime culprit, and you can talk about how bad it is. But for some reason you can't evaluate a QB himself, or how his progress is in regards to the team. How is it that you can apply some criteria for evaluation of the ENTIRE O-line, but can't seem to find the criteria to evaluate a single QB?
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Old 05-01-2005   #76
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[quote=thegr8fan]I have done the stats thing, many times. Carr loses when you do that. Think about it though and the stats for Carr's first 3 years are not as applicable as other QB's are cause most of them didn't start their careers with expansion teams. If the Texans were an established team and Carr had started THEN, you could compare the stats on a one-to-one basis. That situation doesn't apply here, IMHO.

i don't get it how does Carr lose, you would think since he did start on a expansion team it was even more diffucult to put up about the same #s. Last year in only his third season Carr passed for more yards than S. Mcnair has ever thrown for. Also if you do look at other Qbs progressions after they make that first step of passing for more tds than ints, the very next season they make a giagantic leap in production.Their has been plenty of qbs that strugled early on, Bradshaw comes to mind. If you look at the offense what can we truly say Carr has had to work with. A injury prone rb, the only recieving te he has keys the defense of obvious passing plays, One hellava #1 reciever that is often double covered, Lacks a true #2 reciever and the one he does have isn't very consistent and seems like the only ball he can catch occasionally is the long one which takes time for the play to develop, and a oline that set a new all-time sack record. Even with all that you still say he's avg., avg. is pretty good given those currcumstances We should be asking ourselves how this guy hasn't been a bust cause he cetainly hasn't been put in the best position for success.
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Old 05-01-2005   #77
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Quote:
i don't get it how does Carr lose, you would think since he did start on a expansion team it was even more diffucult to put up about the same #s.
you don't get it how he loses, but then you answer your own question on how that happens. Yes it was is more difficult to put up #'s on an expansion team, that is how Carr loses.

Quote:
Even with all that you still say he's avg., avg. is pretty good given those currcumstances
finally we find some common ground we can agree on.

Quote:
We should be asking ourselves how this guy hasn't been a bust cause he cetainly hasn't been put in the best position for success.
which is also why I haven't closed the books totally on him making it into the upper crust of QB's and am willing to give him one more year to 'smooth out the rough edges' and do so.
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Old 05-01-2005   #78
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I think Carr could work on his accurracy and his reads. Other than that, I've been very impressed by him. Hard to be accurrate or make good reads on a bear hug or from your back.
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Old 05-01-2005   #79
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Look thegr8fan, I went through and looked at every quarterback starting in the league, plus Aikman, Montana, Elway, Kelly, and Marino. The ONLY 4 that did any better than he did in their third season was Marino, Manning, Brady, and Pennington. Carr has his weaknesses, but at least he isn't as bad off as as Elway was, who threw over 600 passes, for 3,891 yards and 22 TD's, but also threw 23 interceptions, with a 53% completion percentage and a 70.2 rating, and only got sacked 12 times (talk about a dramatic season full of high's and lows). David Carr's no Elway??? I'm glad he wasn't the equivilent of Elway in his 3'rd season. Also Troy Aikman who's no hall of famer (yet) but stil was a verry talented and respected QB didn't do **** untill his 5'th season. Also Penningtons 3'rd year would've been no better except he only threw 6 interceptions, a record low for all 3'rd year QB's. Another neat thing I found out was that the next highest sack total for all the QB's I looked at in their 3'rd year was Vinny Testeverdie, he was sacked 38 times with Tampa Bay compared to Carr's 49, and you think Carr had a soso season, Vinny was horrible.
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Old 05-01-2005   #80
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on his accurancy, I am perfectly happy with that. I think he is highly accurate. I also think that some of those int's come from balls bouncing off his receivers hands and into the Defense. I have no problem with Carr's accuracy or his arm strength.

Now on his reads, yes, he needs ALOT of work. I hold out the hope that this is something that one acquires with more reps. So the more games he plays the better he gets at this, hopefully.

Carr has also learned how to put a little 'touch' on his throws which make them easier to catch, IMHO.

See it isn't all bad stuff.

Just wish he would call an audible that worked occasionally. And he would stop doing the 'look at AJ, dump it to DD' scheme that he seems to have made too much of a habit out of. There are other players out there working for the ball also.
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