Whether you like it or not, but Kubiak...

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

Harbaugh 1 year > Kubiak 6 years. This is how voters will see it.

First let's say that I agree with you that the voters will see it that way.

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

The 49ers have not had a winning record since 2002, the first year that the Texans were in the league.

They had a losing culture that no amount of talent was going to overcome. They needed leadership, someone to instill something deeper into the collective mindset.

I agree with this, but they also needed talent. Had someone (Casserly) been in Houston acquiring talent the way San Fran has in the last 5/6 years, then it would have been the same.

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

Many folks have argued about regime change here Houston. Many of the anti-change crowd indicated that a new head coach would not automatically make a difference, that it takes time to accrue talent and a staff, implement schemes, and fill the bench.

Heck, even Bob McNair himself stated that changing head coaches is "traumatic" as a way to support his decision to keep Kubiak.

Harbaugh just proved all of that wrong, and did it without the benefit of an off-season.

I think (iirc) the same was said about Josh McDaniels.... for a little while.

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

I am not arguing that Kubiak should not be considered. But if you are honest about your analysis, Harbaugh did this season what Kubiak was supposed to do (and predicted to do) in 2008, 2009, 2010.

I don't think Kubiak should be considered. Bob should call all the voters & pay them to take Kubiak off the ballot.

2008? 2009 I believe, but 2008 we were supposed to win the division? A wild card maybe, but the division in 2008? I'm not buying it.

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

NOBODY expected the 49ers to be 10-2 and clinch a playoff spot in week 12 (a full decade since their last appearance).

I think this is what he's saying. The 49ers are the most talented team in that division.... I don't know if that was all that obvious before the season started, but that's his argument.

The Cardinals..... I thought Kolb was going to do something special (homerism.... maybe). St Louis, yeah, I'm shocked they are as bad as they are. Really. Seattle, I thought they would be at the bottom of the pile.

But I had no idea the AFC South was going to be this bad either.... so

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by Rey

I thought that they should have done this with singletary but he just wasn't a good head coach.

If Singletary didn't go at it with Vernon Davis, & straighten up that locker room, I doubt Harbaugh would be 10-2 right now.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by Dutchrudder

I have absolutely no issue with your arguments or Tkyss's in regard to the team and where it is. My issue is that the difference maker in San Fransisco I believe is Harbaugh, but in Houston it's Wade Phillips. Kubiak is just the benefactor of a revamped defense. The offense has performed well each year under Kubiak but it took 6 years to get a top 10 defense. That's why I put Harbaugh above Kubes, and I think their resumes regarding the overall team are relatively similar.

I don't know if there is a Coordinator of the Year award, but if there is Wade Phillips ought to win that unanimously.

For years we have blamed kubiak for bad defense, but when the d gets good he gets little or no credit?

I get that wade was probably a bob McNair hire. I get that wade is in complete control over there. But at the end of the day (just like when the d sucked) kub is the hmic.

[Texans_Chick]

Originally Posted by houstonspartan

This is Wade's team. It is Wade's season. He did this.

However, I have been impressed with how Kubiak has handled the QB disaster. He doesn't appear to be panicking, and seems to be methodically, and calmly, pushing ahead, doing what he has to do to win. Kubiak seems confident.

But, guess why he's confident? Because we have a solid defense. Guess who is in charge of that?

Get it?

???

A lot of teams can't function with their backup QB much less their third string QB. Hell, a lot of teams can't function well with their starting QB.

Kubiak has had a decent offense for a while. They just didn't have a defensive coordinator who knew what they were doing.

It's a whole team thing. If they didn't have a functional running game, just having a defense would be like being the Jaguars.

[Double Barrel]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

2008? 2009 I believe, but 2008 we were supposed to win the division? A wild card maybe, but the division in 2008? I'm not buying it.

Yeah, wildcard. Strictly talking playoff berth. Our division has always been the Colts to own until this season.

So I can't hold that against Kubiak. Perhaps even one of the reasons for McNair's epic loyalty?...

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

I think this is what he's saying. The 49ers are the most talented team in that division.... I don't know if that was all that obvious before the season started, but that's his argument.

The Cardinals..... I thought Kolb was going to do something special (homerism.... maybe). St Louis, yeah, I'm shocked they are as bad as they are. Really. Seattle, I thought they would be at the bottom of the pile.

But I had no idea the AFC South was going to be this bad either.... so

It's a solid argument, so this is merely a fun debate because I think all of the sides have good merit.

I thought the Cards were going to take the division, as well.

The AFC South is not quite as bad as portrayed, though, since we still have the Titans biting at our heels. I think the NFC West could continue to wallow in mediocrity, but I do expect much stiffer competition in our division next season.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by Dutchrudder

I have absolutely no issue with your arguments or Tkyss's in regard to the team and where it is. My issue is that the difference maker in San Fransisco I believe is Harbaugh, but in Houston it's Wade Phillips. Kubiak is just the benefactor of a revamped defense. The offense has performed well each year under Kubiak but it took 6 years to get a top 10 defense. That's why I put Harbaugh above Kubes, and I think their resumes regarding the overall team are relatively similar.

I don't know if there is a Coordinator of the Year award, but if there is Wade Phillips ought to win that unanimously.

The biggest reason for our failures last season was that Frank Bush totally screwed up the "how to handle adversity" part of the job.

"We're missing Brian Cushing & starting a rookie Corner, so lets play on our heals & hope no one gets a big play on us." So you're asking Quin, Pollard, Demeco, Wilson to read & react & cover for the rookie.

When those downhill players should have been flying down hill getting after the passer, playing on the other side of the LOS, letting Wilson roam using his instincts & letting Kareem sink or swim or blow the F up.

We never got to play that style of football, because we were always losing a key player at one time or another, I think Demeco, Mario, & Cushing only played 1 full game together.

This year, with the FA signings (including Allen from last year) & the addition of Watt & Reed & the aggressive attitude Wade has (he don't look it) we've got players doing what they are supposed to do. The weak spot is still the weak spot, We don't have 9 weak spots trying to compensate for 1. We have 10 guys getting after it & 1 guy trying to keep up.

Frank Bush is a dumbass (can't say idioot)...... But there is little difference between what we are doing now & what we did in 2009 (we're doing it better, but basically the same thing Mario on one side, Cushing on the other, Antonio next to Cushing, Cody on the nose, and Okoye (Watt)).

[Corrosion]

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

Yeah, wildcard. Strictly talking playoff berth. Our division has always been the Colts to own until this season.

So I can't hold that against Kubiak. Perhaps even one of the reasons for McNair's epic loyalty?...



It's a solid argument, so this is merely a fun debate because I think all of the sides have good merit.

I thought the Cards were going to take the division, as well.

The AFC South is not quite as bad as portrayed, though, since we still have the Titans biting at our heels. I think the NFC West could continue to wallow in mediocrity, but I do expect much stiffer competition in our division next season.

Not without much better QB play ..... Manning may be the best ever but I think he's gonna fall off considerably due to injury ..... Gabbert ? He'll never be a starting calibur NFL QB ..... the Tits gonna bring back Hasselbeck ? Can he put up another decent year for them ?

The AFC South belongs to the Houston Texans until further notice.



As for the topic of the thread ..... Yeah , you gotta put Gary in the conversation along with Harbough and McCarthy. If its not one of those three .... someone stole it.

[ObsiWan]

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

The 49ers have not had a winning record since 2002, the first year that the Texans were in the league.

They had a losing culture that no amount of talent was going to overcome. They needed leadership, someone to instill something deeper into the collective mindset.

Singletary did that when he took the 2007 team that went 5-11 and elevated them to 7-9 and that was after a 2-5 start under Mike Nolan (meaning Singletary went 5-4). The next year, 2008, they went 8-8 so the "culture" was beginning to change before Harbaugh got there.

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

Many folks have argued about regime change here Houston. Many of the anti-change crowd indicated that a new head coach would not automatically make a difference, that it takes time to accrue talent and a staff, implement schemes, and fill the bench.

Heck, even Bob McNair himself stated that changing head coaches is "traumatic" as a way to support his decision to keep Kubiak.

Harbaugh just proved all of that wrong, and did it without the benefit of an off-season.

And each year for every Harbaugh-like miracle worker there are a couple of Pat Shurmurs or Ron Riveras that don't do squat. Sorry, not buying into that hype.


I guess I'll have to respectfully agree to disagree.
...plus I'm a so I'm arguing against anything that doesn't support my Texans.

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

I am not arguing that Kubiak should not be considered. But if you are honest about your analysis, Harbaugh did this season what Kubiak was supposed to do (and predicted to do) in 2008, 2009, 2010.

NOBODY expected the 49ers to be 10-2 and clinch a playoff spot in week 12 (a full decade since their last appearance).

Harbaugh 1 year > Kubiak 6 years. This is how voters will see it.

p.s. I'm not even a fan of Jim Harbaugh, and Kubiak is my coach. I'd really like to see McCarthy get it for 16-0 and then lose to the Texans in the Super Bowl.

I cannot dispute that point because the voters hate us anyway

[DocBar]

I didn't bother reading all four pages, so this might be a repeat.

Kubiak does NOT deserve Coach of the Year even if we win the Super Bowl. Every coach, every year, has to deal with injuries. Why should Kubes get COY for the team achieving what it should've achived for a couple of years? This team has had talent for a few years and they always folded. The big difference this year is Phillips as DC. This year is the only year where Kubiak can legitimately claim injuries as the reason for failure, yet we're succeeding. Obviously, the talent has mostly been there and coaching has been lacking.

I state all this having been a Kubes supporter. I like the continuity of keeping a head coach. All in all, I think this season has opened McNair's eyes, as far as loyalty goes. Loyalty to Kubes seems to be panning out by discounting Kube's loyalty to certain DC's. As far as any of us know, McNair and/or Smith forced Kubes to take Phillips. Kubes is golden this year, thanks to injuries. Next season, if there's a collapse like '07-'10(rookie season gets a bye with me), Kubes is gone and we begin another futile Wade Phillips HC campaign.

I really think Kubes and Phillips are consumate coordinators in the NFL. I KNOW Phillips is a bad HC and I'm fairly certain Kubes is average at best. John Harbaugh gets my nod.

[DocBar]

Originally Posted by Texans_Chick

???

A lot of teams can't function with their backup QB much less their third string QB. Hell, a lot of teams can't function well with their starting QB.

Kubiak has had a decent offense for a while. They just didn't have a defensive coordinator who knew what they were doing.

It's a whole team thing. If they didn't have a functional running game, just having a defense would be like being the Jaguars.

That sounds suspiciously like an OC's job, not a HC's job. Kubes has had several offenses that could run up and down the field. This is the only defense he's ever had that could stop the other team, consistently, from doing the same. Phillips' swagger and game plans are the things that are making this season magical. It's really kinda Patriot-esque 2001 in that. Great defense and the other two phases not losing the game, in the early part of the season, with the offense coming on later. This could very well be the Texans this year. We have a great defense that will allow Rowdy Yates to grow as a starting QB without thinking that every mistake will end in a loss or a yank. This is what championship teams are made of. Rowdy has four more games to round out into playoff form. He showed poise, ability and more than a little flair and mobility. I'm still thinking Super Bowl, but not COY for Kubes. We should've been here the last two years and it's his fault, as head coach, that we weren't.

[Corrosion]

Originally Posted by DocBar

We should've been here the last two years and it's his fault, as head coach, that we weren't.

This isnt a career achievement award but an award for this season ....


Im not ready to hand him anything but he has to be in the conversation .....

[DocBar]

Originally Posted by Corrosion

This isnt a career achievement award but an award for this season ....


Im not ready to hand him anything but he has to be in the conversation .....

The Texans have underachieved for a few years. Why reward a guy for doing what he should be doing? This year is all about Phillips. Without him, we're Jax at this stage. Kubes has had the talent to make the playoffs in years past, so I'm not willing to even consider him this year just because of injuries. Injuries happe to every team. You deal with them and hope you made good personell decisions, as far as depth.

Basically, the better this season gets, the more bitter I get about previous years, when a Phillips type DC would've put us in contention of some sort.

[Corrosion]

Originally Posted by DocBar

The Texans have underachieved for a few years. Why reward a guy for doing what he should be doing? This year is all about Phillips. Without him, we're Jax at this stage. Kubes has had the talent to make the playoffs in years past, so I'm not willing to even consider him this year just because of injuries. Injuries happe to every team. You deal with them and hope you made good personell decisions, as far as depth.

Basically, the better this season gets, the more bitter I get about previous years, when a Phillips type DC would've put us in contention of some sort.

D.Manning , J-Jo , Barwin , Reed , Watt all new additions to this years defense ..... Hard to argue that the talent was there to begin with when all those players were added one way or another over what was available last season.

They added a solid player on every level of the defense.

[DocBar]

Originally Posted by Corrosion

D.Manning , J-Jo , Barwin , Reed , Watt all new additions to this years defense ..... Hard to argue that the talent was there to begin with when all those players were added one way or another over what was available last season.

They added a solid player on every level of the defense.

You just mentioned all defensive players. Everything to do with the defense has been Phillips. Are you going to suggest that we've won more due to offense than defense? What is Kubes' specialty?Umm....NOT defense. The Patriots have the same defensive rank we had last year. What is their record? Oh yeah...1st seed in the AFC. With the 30th-ish ranked defense. If Kubes is such a great HC, shouldn't we have made the playoffs in the last 3 years with a top 5 offense? All of the evidence shows that Kubes is a good/great OC and a mediocre HC, just like his record shows. Belichick would've had us deep in the playoffs 3 out of 5 years from '06-'10. Kubes got us 9-7 ONCE. Other coaches with, surprisingly worse franchises, further this year than Kubiak has taken his team. Harbaugh is the most glaringly obvious.

[ObsiWan]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

Well, I think a lot of people ignore that it did not take Kubiak 6 years to get a winning season. It took him 4 years to get a winning season after taking over a broken expansion team. Two years after that, & we are here.

If you're telling me Jim Harbaugh could've taken over the 2006 Texans & had them at 10-1 that year, I'm calling BS. & that's the point I (& I believe ObsiWan) am trying to make.

I think.

You are correct, sir.

It's the difference between flipping a house that just needs a some paint and new carpet to make it sellable to one that has been burned down to the foundation and you have to rebuild it from the slab up to make it sellable.

Which do you think is the greater accomplishment? Which one required more work?

[ObsiWan]

Originally Posted by Dutchrudder

I have absolutely no issue with your arguments or Tkyss's in regard to the team and where it is. My issue is that the difference maker in San Fransisco I believe is Harbaugh, but in Houston it's Wade Phillips. Kubiak is just the benefactor of a revamped defense. The offense has performed well each year under Kubiak but it took 6 years to get a top 10 defense. That's why I put Harbaugh above Kubes, and I think their resumes regarding the overall team are relatively similar.

I don't know if there is a Coordinator of the Year award, but if there is Wade Phillips ought to win that unanimously.

You'll get no argument from me on that point. Even the dummies on TV have acknowledged that Wade was the off-season pickup of the year.

But without the offensive system that Kubiak built, this team is just another Jacksonville. And certainly not a contender.

[ObsiWan]

And for the record, if McCarthy finishes up 16-0, that's Coach of the Year worthy IMHO. And not simply because they haven't lost but it's who they've beaten along the way.

Saints - in prime time.
Bears - before they lost their QB
Giants - took their best shot and got the win
Falcons - meh, but they are still in the playoff hunt
Lions - the famous Suh STOMP! (think Hulk Smash!!) game on turkey day

And, in being undefeated AND the reigning champs, they're taking everyone's best shot.

So, if they survive to go 16-0, McCarthy would get my vote for CotY.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by DocBar

You just mentioned all defensive players. Everything to do with the defense has been Phillips. Are you going to suggest that we've won more due to offense than defense? What is Kubes' specialty?Umm....NOT defense. The Patriots have the same defensive rank we had last year. What is their record? Oh yeah...1st seed in the AFC. With the 30th-ish ranked defense. If Kubes is such a great HC, shouldn't we have made the playoffs in the last 3 years with a top 5 offense? All of the evidence shows that Kubes is a good/great OC and a mediocre HC, just like his record shows. Belichick would've had us deep in the playoffs 3 out of 5 years from '06-'10. Kubes got us 9-7 ONCE. Other coaches with, surprisingly worse franchises, further this year than Kubiak has taken his team. Harbaugh is the most glaringly obvious.

Belichick may have had us in the play offs. Maybe not. Belichick has Brady. Normally great qb's have their teams in the hunt no matter what. Especially qb's that perform well in the clutch.

Belichick has the manning of his division. His defenses havent always been this bad either.

Kubiak came on a 2-14 team with pretty bad talent all the way around. The entire team pretty much needed to be re-built. Then on top of that our division was on fire at the time. Every team in the division was playing well...well besides us.

Belichick probably wins more games, but I think any coach coming into that situation would have had growing pains. Especially any first time head coach on any level.

Even Rex Ryan inherited a better team than kubiak did. I'd say Harbaugh came into a better situation as well. He'd been a head coach before (in college). He had talent on that team. Division sucked ass.

And I'm not saying those guys aren't good coaches or that kubiak deserves a pass for the product he has produced sans this year. What I'm saying is that maybe kubiak has been a little better than he's given credit for and maybe some other coaches have come into more favorable situations to turn around their teams.

[Texecutioner]

Originally Posted by Rey

Belichick may have had us in the play offs. Maybe not. Belichick has Brady. Normally great qb's have their teams in the hunt no matter what. Especially qb's that perform well in the clutch.

Belichick has the manning of his division. His defenses havent always been this bad either.

Kubiak came on a 2-14 team with pretty bad talent all the way around. The entire team pretty much needed to be re-built. Then on top of that our division was on fire at the time. Every team in the division was playing well...well besides us.

Belichick probably wins more games, but I think any coach coming into that situation would have had growing pains. Especially any first time head coach on any level.

Even Rex Ryan inherited a better team than kubiak did. I'd say Harbaugh came into a better situation as well. He'd been a head coach before (in college). He had talent on that team. Division sucked ass.

And I'm not saying those guys aren't good coaches or that kubiak deserves a pass for the product he has produced sans this year. What I'm saying is that maybe kubiak has been a little better than he's given credit for and maybe some other coaches have come into more favorable situations to turn around their teams.

Those are just a few situations, but there have been a ton of teams that got turned around that were just as bad or right around that. Whether a team was just as bad can be argued all day and night long, but they were all bad teams. The Saints were a terrible team when Payton took over. Same year as Kubiak and so were the Jets when Mangini took them over that same year. They both made the post season that year and that's when Pennington was healthy. Then when the Dolphins had a healthy Pennington they won their division after going 1-15. There have been plenty of others like the Falcons as well.

Kubiak didn't have a strong first 5 years here. He should have been canned and most of you guys that have defended him over and over have at least admitted that he should have been fired after year 4 and year 5. Going 6-10 in your 6th season was terrible. This year the Texans have over achieved though mainly due to Wade's defense, but they're still playing very well so talks about Kubiak should cease for the year at least. He'll be back next year either way, and hopefully he can have another big season and I think all of the talks about him being fired or not would cease to exist all together if he could put together two back to back seasons of great football in Houston.

[ObsiWan]

Originally Posted by DocBar

Basically, the better this season gets, the more bitter I get about previous years, when a Phillips type DC would've put us in contention of some sort.

I totally agree with this statement
BUT
Since Kubiak's been here there were no DC's of Phillips' caliber to be had.
Let's think about this. On that level of -dare I say - defensive genius - there are maybe 3-4 other than Buddha Wade.

Dick LeBeau
Greg Williams
Dom Capers (on his better days)
Rex Ryan (although I think he benefitted from HoF personnel in Balt.)

Those guys weren't going to be let go of the teams that had them under contract just to go take a lateral - i.e., simply move to a better paying DC job.

The ideal - yet highly improbable - situation would have been to let Capers stay to build/run the defense and bring Kubiak in to build a solid offense.

If only Jerruh had fired Wade in '09....