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Old 12-06-2011   #161
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Originally Posted by ObsiWan View Post
Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Wade's happy with him... at least as half a starter

Kubiak is happy with Wade's decisions on defense

We are all happy with the results Wade's defense is producing

When do we end this thread??
when we win 7 in a row?
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Old 12-06-2011   #162
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Anybody trying to say that was great coverage by Kareem is wrong. Anyone saying he had 0 impact on the incompletion is wrong.

Jones probably should have made the catch. The ball hit him in the hands and if his name was jacoby instead of Julio we'd be talking about how he dropped a catchable pass.

Fact is, a lot of receivers make that catch anyways. But kj played a role in the incometion. He was not the sole cause of it, but he certainly helped.

I've seen receivers make catches under much tighter coverage. I've also seen receivers drop balls simply because of the presence of defenders.

The truth on why the play happened is somewhere in between. Pretty decent job by kjax not a great job by Julio.
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Old 12-06-2011   #163
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
I can do even better!

I can show that as Jones's left elbow came down, it hit KJ's wrist (and stalled).
Jones' two arms (and hands) are no longer balanced (on the same horizontal plane), causing the ball to slip out of his grab.

Any wager for a beer or two, LOL!?!
Here's the whole sequence in low res:
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/...st%20Play/111/

Here's the whole sequence in high res:
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/...st%20Play/222/

Here are the 3 important pictures in the sequence:







The 3 red lines are used to show the horizontal planes for references (using the top and bottom of Toro's number and the flap of the sport coat of the guy standing in the endzone.
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Old 12-06-2011   #164
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Anybody trying to say that was great coverage by Kareem is wrong. Anyone saying he had 0 impact on the incompletion is wrong.

Jones probably should have made the catch. The ball hit him in the hands and if his name was jacoby instead of Julio we'd be talking about how he dropped a catchable pass.

Fact is, a lot of receivers make that catch anyways. But kj played a role in the incometion. He was not the sole cause of it, but he certainly helped.

I've seen receivers make catches under much tighter coverage. I've also seen receivers drop balls simply because of the presence of defenders.

The truth on why the play happened is somewhere in between. Pretty decent job by kjax not a great job by Julio.
Best post in the thread.

Lemme ask you this. Say you're a CB & you have to cover Julio Jones. Twice, you have him against the sideline.

Why do you go for the ball?

All you have to do, is push him out of bounds before he comes down.

They never would have gotten to the 30 yard line had Kj pushed Jones instead of going for the ball.

There would be no question of Kj's impact had he stayed on his feet & pushed Julio out of bounds.

I know that's not what they're thought, but with the rules we have now, If I think I'm close to the sideline, I'm going to push the guy out of bounds.
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Old 12-06-2011   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Here's the whole sequence in low res:
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/...st%20Play/111/

Here's the whole sequence in high res:
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/...st%20Play/222/

Here are the 3 important pictures in the sequence:







The 3 red lines are used to show the horizontal planes for references (using the top and bottom of Toro's number and the flap of the sport coat of the guy standing in the endzone.
I think you are reaching.

Football isn't played in freeze frames and your hands and elbows don't have to be level to make a catch.

Jackson played a role in the drop, but to say he is the sole reason or even to say he was a major factor is disingenuous IMO.

Kareem isn't trash, but he's not made of gold and platinum either.
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Old 12-06-2011   #166
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Old 12-06-2011   #167
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
I think you are reaching.

Football isn't played in freeze frames and your hands and elbows don't have to be level to make a catch.

Jackson played a role in the drop, but to say he is the sole reason or even to say he was a major factor is disingenuous IMO.
If you look at Julio's elbows, you will see that his right elbow came down more than his left (due to Jackson's arm/wrist/hand).

When you try to grab a ball with both hands and a guy knocks one of your elbows, you will definitely lose balance of your grasp.

If you don't see that, there's no use talking!
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Old 12-06-2011   #168
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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Best post in the thread.

Lemme ask you this. Say you're a CB & you have to cover Julio Jones. Twice, you have him against the sideline.

Why do you go for the ball?

All you have to do, is push him out of bounds before he comes down.

They never would have gotten to the 30 yard line had Kj pushed Jones instead of going for the ball.

There would be no question of Kj's impact had he stayed on his feet & pushed Julio out of bounds.

I know that's not what they're thought, but with the rules we have now, If I think I'm close to the sideline, I'm going to push the guy out of bounds.
With how close he was to the sideline I though that's what he'd try to do.

I just don't see how anyone can muster the energy to complain about Kareem on that play or especially in that game.

He made some errors but the guy had an int, a big hit and he was a factor in Julio dropping that pass.

I font care if it's scheme d line or whatever. Kareem and Allen have played better this year. I'd like to see Kareem go ahead and outright take that job though because Allen won't be here forever.
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Old 12-06-2011   #169
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
I think you are reaching.

Football isn't played in freeze frames and your hands and elbows don't have to be level to make a catch.

Jackson played a role in the drop, but to say he is the sole reason or even to say he was a major factor is disingenuous IMO.

Kareem isn't trash, but he's not made of gold and platinum either.
Once again, without interviewing Jones, how can you say he was/wasn't a "major factor"?
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Old 12-06-2011   #170
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If you look at Julio's elbows, you will see that his right elbow came down more than his left (due to Jackson's arm/wrist/hand).

When you try to grab a ball with both hands and a guy knocks one of your elbows, you will definitely lose balance of your grasp.

If you don't see that, there's no use talking!
Well then go ahead and stop talking because you are trying to give more credit than what's due while others aren't giving enough.

go look at a falcons board and convince those guys that their stud 1st round wr didn't drop a catchable ball.

Kj had a part in that, but it was still a drop at the end if the day.

If that was our first round pick at wr I'd have expected him to catch it despite the bump on the elbow.

Good job by kj doing as much as he could there and playing a role in the drop, but I think you are giving entirely too much credit. Jmo.
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Old 12-06-2011   #171
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Once again, without interviewing Jones, how can you say he was/wasn't a "major factor"?
Not sure why you put major factor in quotes as I didn't use those words. Hard to discuss imaginary points.

But I know football and have played a lot of football and I've seen lesser wide receivers make tougher catches under much more duress.

My first post in this thread I basically told Ellis that i thought he wasn't giving Kareem enough credit. Conversely I think some are reaching to give him more credit than he deserves.

Good play by Kareem. Really good game by him.

Not sure what your point is about interviewing jones because I guarantee he'd say he should have caught it. HE probably wouldn't give kareem as much credit as he deserves.


Be serious, do you really think a big time player like that is going to say Kareem did anything there to keep him from catching that ball when it hit him in his hands? Falcons fans would give him hell.

There was no major break up going on there, but he did enough to bother jones and we won. All this other stuff is foolishness.
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Old 12-06-2011   #172
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
I can do even better!

I can show that as Jones's left elbow came down, it hit KJ's wrist (and stalled).
Jones' two arms (and hands) are no longer balanced (on the same horizontal plane), causing the ball to slip out of his grab.

Any wager for a beer or two, LOL!?!
With all due respect, when you see the job I'm posting to YouTube as I type this (the video is rendering in YouTube right now) you will see that your little red lines don't do much nor prove much.

I'm about to make the teacher the student here on this particular item.

I am about to prove to the jury that Julio Jones had the ball, and that KJ's hand was never (a) wrapped around a bicep, nor (b) pulling Julio's arm down, and (c) that KJ's arm remains in the same position and never moves down nor toward himself in a tugging motion.

In fact, in the slow-motion portion of my video analysis you can see that KJ's hand releases very easily. You can see a black space between KJ's hand and JJ's bicep...indicating that KJ had ZERO grip on the bicep.

KJ's hand was in there, but it played (drum roll, please....) NO part in Julio dropping the pass. He had dropped it almost as quickly as he had caught it. He snaps his own arms downward and cannot gather it in.

Video coming soon.
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Old 12-06-2011   #173
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Link to video is here.

It might still be rendering, though.
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Old 12-06-2011   #174
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

District attorneys dislike "eye witnesses". I know why.
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Old 12-06-2011   #175
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Man no one but Julio knows how much impact KJs hand played.

Can we just end this and all admit that Kareem had a good day? That's what this all comes down to any ways. Some folks don't want to say it, he got the game ball and had a pretty good game against Julio Jones and I know a lot of folks expected otherwise.

He splits time with Allen sure but can some folks just admit the dude had a good game? He's on your favorite team, be happy that he's showing improvement.
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Old 12-06-2011   #176
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Link to video is here.

It might still be rendering, though.
LOL, I saw exactly what badboy said.
(I saw what I saw.)
When Julio's arms came down, the left hit KJ's, forcing the drop.

Even if Julio managed to hang on to the ball a little longer, when he came down further, the ball will hit KJ's hand (with fingers already touching).

Will he be able to hang on to the ball after that?
I don't even want to discus, because it didn't get to that point.
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Old 12-06-2011   #177
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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LOL, I saw exactly what badboy said.
(I saw what I saw.)
When Julio's arms came down, the left hit KJ's, forcing the drop.

Even if Julio managed to hang on to the ball a little longer, when he came down further, the ball will hit KJ's hand (with fingers already touching).

Will he be able to hang on to the ball after that?
I don't even want to discus, because it didn't get to that point.
The most KJ did was a tiny "pinch" of Julio's bicep at the very end of the play.

It's funny how Julio's arms are snapping downward very quickly, but when you look at the screenshots....KJ's right hand stays in the same position the whole way down. It never moves off a horizontal line.

This indicates, IMO, that Julio is snapping his own arms downward (because he bobbled the catch) and he's chasing it downward while KJ's right hand stays in the same place not even affecting the play. If he was tugging, KJ's hand would be moving downward WITH, or even ahead of, Julio's own arm.

KJ got his arm in there, it just didn't do anything that Julio's own problematic hands were doing on their own already.

As soon as that ball touches Julio's fingers on both hands, he's already dropping it. The rest is Julio chasing it downward and never catching up to it.

I'll be interested to see if this is what others see.
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Old 12-06-2011   #178
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Originally Posted by fiasco west View Post
Man no one but Julio knows how much impact KJs hand played.

Can we just end this and all admit that Kareem had a good day? That's what this all comes down to any ways. Some folks don't want to say it, he got the game ball and had a pretty good game against Julio Jones and I know a lot of folks expected otherwise.

He splits time with Allen sure but can some folks just admit the dude had a good game? He's on your favorite team, be happy that he's showing improvement.
KJ continues to play more series and more snaps than Allen (about 14 more according to my count, including 2 (or 3) when they were on the field at the same time).

And again, Allen continues to receive more support overall (be it an extra rusher, underneath help (LB, safety) to tighten up the throwing window, or deep safety help.

Not on every single play, but if you look at all the snaps in all the games (against each different offensive personnel grouping), then you count the numbers of defenders on Allen's side (vs KJ).
Total up all the defenders on that side vs a particular offensive formation (personnel grouping) and divide by the number of snaps.
I GUARANTEE with you that Allen's number will be greater (ie., he has more help).
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Old 12-06-2011   #179
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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The most KJ did was a tiny "pinch" of Julio's bicep at the very end of the play.

It's funny how Julio's arms are snapping downward very quickly, but when you look at the screenshots....KJ's right hand stays in the same position the whole way down. It never moves off a horizontal line.

This indicates, IMO, that Julio is snapping his own arms downward (because he bobbled the catch) and he's chasing it downward while KJ's right hand stays in the same place not even affecting the play. If he was tugging, KJ's hand would be moving downward WITH, or even ahead of, Julio's own arm.

KJ got his arm in there, it just didn't do anything that Julio's own problematic hands were doing on their own already.

As soon as that ball touches Julio's fingers on both hands, he's already dropping it. The rest is Julio chasing it downward and never catching up to it.

I'll be interested to see if this is what others see.
Why would KJ want to move his arm in unison with Julio?
The idea here is to affect the ball and/or one of the receiver's arm to make it as difficult for him to hang on to the ball as possible.

You want to seperate the receiver's arms and/or get contact with the ball to increase the difficulty level of the catch for the receiver.
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Old 12-06-2011   #180
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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And again, Allen continues to receive more support overall (be it an extra rusher, underneath help (LB, safety) to tighten up the throwing window, or deep safety help.
Wow. You got a bad crush, 76. It's Bieber'esque.

You're going to sit here and say that Jason Allen is getting MORE help via lots of factors, and then you throw in some sort of mathematical equation of adding up players and formations and dividing it by number of snaps???????

It's "A Beautiful Mind" time around here, I suppose.

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