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Old 12-06-2011   #141
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaJokaa View Post
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/pos...as-at-his-best

KJ picture in the article shows he had an impact on Julio Jones dropping the ball. He contested the the ball
Regardless of whether he got his hand on the ball or if he caused the incompletion, I find it funny that there is such a polar disagreement on KJ.

After the game, fans start discussions on whether it's time to give up on KJ because of his poor play.

Meanwhile, the Texans coaches decided to give him the game ball.

Now...who's opinion to put more weight in?
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Old 12-06-2011   #142
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

I guess I'll just video the replay off my TV (I DVR'd the game).

I'll put it into iMovie and slow it down, and I think I'll show that the ball had already glanced off Jones' hands. As to the comments, and the photo, that show KJ has a hand on Jones' left bicep and that KJ pulled or would have pulled Jones' hands apart...I just want you to remember these tidbits:

1. Jones is a much bigger guy than KJ.

2. KJ has only one hand on Jones' bicep, do you think that someone like Jones, who is already bigger than KJ to begin with, cannot use both of his own arms and overcome a one-arm pull by KJ?

3. It's my opinion that any separation of Jones' hands was due to Jones knowing he didn't control the point of contact he initially made with the ball. Had he locked his hands onto the ball at the point of impact, he probably squeezes his arms together and nullifies any pull that KJ could have put upon ONE of Jones' arms.

I'll be back later. Don't know how long it will take to do this, but I want to see if how I remember it is how it happened, or not. We'll see.
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Old 12-06-2011   #143
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

I have to say one thing Matt Ryan put those balls in a really tight area where not a lot of people had a shot at it. Pretty stellar throws compared to his earlier attempts lol..

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Old 12-06-2011   #144
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GP View Post
I guess I'll just video the replay off my TV (I DVR'd the game).

I'll put it into iMovie and slow it down, and I think I'll show that the ball had already glanced off Jones' hands. As to the comments, and the photo, that show KJ has a hand on Jones' left bicep and that KJ pulled or would have pulled Jones' hands apart...I just want you to remember these tidbits:

1. Jones is a much bigger guy than KJ.

2. KJ has only one hand on Jones' bicep, do you think that someone like Jones, who is already bigger than KJ to begin with, cannot use both of his own arms and overcome a one-arm pull by KJ?

3. It's my opinion that any separation of Jones' hands was due to Jones knowing he didn't control the point of contact he initially made with the ball. Had he locked his hands onto the ball at the point of impact, he probably squeezes his arms together and nullifies any pull that KJ could have put upon ONE of Jones' arms.

I'll be back later. Don't know how long it will take to do this, but I want to see if how I remember it is how it happened, or not. We'll see.
So you think Kareem had no impact on the play.

Sometimes, getting a hand on the reciever's arm is all you can do as a DB, who, like you noted, is much bigger than you. The pass was high in the air where even Jones would have to make a spectacular play on it, and it was on the sideline side, away from KJ.

I agree KJ could have made a better play on it. I disagree he had no effect on the play. I disagree that he was "watching the play, like he was a paying customer". If KJ was tugging on the bicep, regardless of how strong you think Julio Jones is, he had an effect on the play.
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Old 12-06-2011   #145
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GP View Post
I think I'll show that the ball had already glanced off Jones' hands.
Already before what? Jones initiates the entanglement by pushing off lightly with his left hand on KJ's chest number. This results in KJ's right arm being inside Jones' left arm as both go up to get the ball. KJ's arm was inside Jones' before the ball arrives.
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Old 12-06-2011   #146
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Well, I'm having to download iMovie 11 because either the new hard drive Apple gave me was a pre-2011 model and had iMovie 10 on it, or my upgrade to Lion this week zapped iMovie 11. Whatever the cause, my $900 Sony HD Handycam won't connect to iMovie, so I suspect that previous iMovie versions can't read the camera.

But after watching the replay, and after recording it onto my Handycam and zooming into the replay aired by FOX right after the shot of Mike Smith on the sideline running his hands through his hair in frustration, Julio let the ball bounce of his hands and never even had his hands around it. And, it looks like although KJ had his hand on Jones' left bicep, it's cupped very loosely and he's not even pulling on it much at all.

All in all, everything is just about as I remember it.

It will take an hour or so for iMovie 11 to finish downloading, then I have to take it in there (hopefully I can even get the clip off the camera) and slow it down even more to show Jones never had the ball and KJ's powerful tug was not as powerful as we'd like to think.

Julio Jones dropped the ball and then tried to react and go back after it...but it was too late. Was KJ there? Yes. If Julio Jones catches that ball, does KJ's tug mean anything? I doubt it.

We got lucky, and I'll take lucky and run with it every time.
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Old 12-06-2011   #147
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddyboy View Post
So you think Kareem had no impact on the play.

Sometimes, getting a hand on the reciever's arm is all you can do as a DB, who, like you noted, is much bigger than you. The pass was high in the air where even Jones would have to make a spectacular play on it, and it was on the sideline side, away from KJ.

I agree KJ could have made a better play on it. I disagree he had no effect on the play. I disagree that he was "watching the play, like he was a paying customer". If KJ was tugging on the bicep, regardless of how strong you think Julio Jones is, he had an effect on the play.
Correct. I think Kareem Jackson had zero impact on the play. Julio Jones had the impact on the play because Julio Jones dropped the pass and it was right on his hands. Julio Jones and Roddy White were dropping passes all day long, btw.

If it makes you feel better, I also think Joseph screwed up by getting too deep into the corner of the end zone on the previous play. Roddy White boxed him out, and it looked like Shaq boxing out Spud Webb. Had that pass been a yard shorter, or had Roddy White gone a yard deeper and pushed joseph back even further...that's a TD and there's not even a Julio Jones-Kareem Jackson showdown with 1 second on the clock.

I am only saying that this idea that KJ saved the day? False. He was there. He didn't impact the play. Did he get the game ball? Yes. Fine, whatever, give everybody a game ball, big deal. I'm talking about us, right here, discussing how much "impact" he had on that play. He didn't. Julio jumped, didn't even have to jockey for position in order to jump for it, and the ball Kah-Ping! bounces off his hands and because KJ's hand is cupped on Jones' bicep it has turned into "KJ helped seal the victory." It's false.

I've praised the guy plenty and I mean it sincerely when I do praise the guy. Others, though, seem bent on saying that he is DEFINITELY improving and that the detractors are just hating for the sake of hating. The guy is splitting reps 50-50, he's being marginalized for a reason.
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Old 12-06-2011   #148
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GP View Post
Well, I'm having to download iMovie 11 because either the new hard drive Apple gave me was a pre-2011 model and had iMovie 10 on it, or my upgrade to Lion this week zapped iMovie 11. Whatever the cause, my $900 Sony HD Handycam won't connect to iMovie, so I suspect that previous iMovie versions can't read the camera.

But after watching the replay, and after recording it onto my Handycam and zooming into the replay aired by FOX right after the shot of Mike Smith on the sideline running his hands through his hair in frustration, Julio let the ball bounce of his hands and never even had his hands around it. And, it looks like although KJ had his hand on Jones' left bicep, it's cupped very loosely and he's not even pulling on it much at all.

All in all, everything is just about as I remember it.

It will take an hour or so for iMovie 11 to finish downloading, then I have to take it in there (hopefully I can even get the clip off the camera) and slow it down even more to show Jones never had the ball and KJ's powerful tug was not as powerful as we'd like to think.

Julio Jones dropped the ball and then tried to react and go back after it...but it was too late. Was KJ there? Yes. If Julio Jones catches that ball, does KJ's tug mean anything? I doubt it.

We got lucky, and I'll take lucky and run with it every time.

My interpretation is that Jones dropped the ball on his own, but even if he would've grasped it, KJ would've pulled his hands apart and dislodged the ball.
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Old 12-06-2011   #149
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

We can sum this thread and any future thread by the following scenarios/statements.

KJ gets beaten on a go or post route.
-He keeps falling down and we need to drop him. He sucks.

KJ makes an interception.
-Well, technically he got beaten and QB made a bad pass. It should have been a touchdown.
-He just happened to be in the right spot. You can thank wade phillips for the improved pass rush. He still sucks.


KJ makes a play on the ball.
- See above.
- We lucked out that the WR didn't catch it. KJ made no impact there.

KJ gets tripped up.
- Omg he just falls down again and again. the guy simply can't stay on his feet (never mind the previous 12 games).

KJ makes a stop on the run.
- crickets

KJ not targetted due to decent coverage
- Wow, our pass rush was great. Good safety help. Man thank goodness we have improved in both aspects that they didn't even have time to exploit our weakness. KJ.

KJ forces a game changing fumble
- Grover Quinn did an excellent job forcing that fumble.
(when it becomes apparent it was Quinn that forced the fumble).
- Grover Quinn did an excellent job of getting to that ball.
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Old 12-06-2011   #150
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GP View Post
I guess I'll just video the replay off my TV (I DVR'd the game).

I'll put it into iMovie and slow it down, and I think I'll show that the ball had already glanced off Jones' hands. As to the comments, and the photo, that show KJ has a hand on Jones' left bicep and that KJ pulled or would have pulled Jones' hands apart...I just want you to remember these tidbits:

1. Jones is a much bigger guy than KJ.

2. KJ has only one hand on Jones' bicep, do you think that someone like Jones, who is already bigger than KJ to begin with, cannot use both of his own arms and overcome a one-arm pull by KJ?

3. It's my opinion that any separation of Jones' hands was due to Jones knowing he didn't control the point of contact he initially made with the ball. Had he locked his hands onto the ball at the point of impact, he probably squeezes his arms together and nullifies any pull that KJ could have put upon ONE of Jones' arms.

I'll be back later. Don't know how long it will take to do this, but I want to see if how I remember it is how it happened, or not. We'll see.
While you're at it, capture a video clip of Andre on that 50 yard catch. He had a much smaller guy riding his biceps but managed to maintain control of the ball.

That's what a badass will do. That may be where Julio might be one day.

Whether Kj pulled his arms apart, or down too fast, or not at all doesn't matter. Had Kj not made contact & Julio didn't bring it in, we wouldn't be having this argument.

but since Kj's hand is clearly in there, we'll never know if Julio would have or not have caught the ball. So the point is moot.

Hey, did you watch the San Diego game? WRs from both teams made touchdowns, & there were CBs right there. It happens.

TNewman, got beat for a touchdown at one time or another. DRC, same thing. Other than PrimeTime, you can't name a CB that did not give up a touchdown at some point in his career. Especially not his second year.
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Old 12-06-2011   #151
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
My interpretation is that Jones dropped the ball on his own, but even if he would've grasped it, KJ would've pulled his hands apart and dislodged the ball.
I wish you could see the zoomed-in version. You'd see Kareem's hand so loosely cupped it looks like he's doing it just for the sake of getting some balance and sticking closer to Jones.

You know when a receiver places a hand on the top of the defender's shoulder pad to steady himself to make the jump up toward the ball? To steady himself, plain and simple. If anything, KJ is just trying to hang there in the pocket with Jones. I'm telling you guys, KJ wasn't ripping the guy's arm. The ball Kah-Pings! right off Jones' hands and then you see Jones still trying to use his hands to follow the ball downward and track it down to catch it...but it ricocheted so quickly that he had no chance at getting it. It was the very definition of stone hands.

In fact, michaelm, the replay will show that KJ's "iron-grip hand" comes off of Jones' bicep so easily and so quickly, that I don't even think KJ was pulling all that hard if any at all. There was no follow-through when KJ's hand detaches from Jones' bicep.

It's plausible that KJ wasn't tugging very hard, in my estimation at least, because he didn't want to get flagged for interference. That's a micro-second of time that he has to to decide if he makes the tug or doesn't...and perhaps HAD he tugged too hard, the ref flags him and the Falcons get the ball 1st and goal at the 1. So, all in all it's good that it worked out like it did.
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Old 12-06-2011   #152
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by foo82 View Post
We can sum this thread and any future thread by the following scenarios/statements.

KJ gets beaten on a go or post route.
-He keeps falling down and we need to drop him. He sucks.

KJ makes an interception.
-Well, technically he got beaten and QB made a bad pass. It should have been a touchdown.
-He just happened to be in the right spot. You can thank wade phillips for the improved pass rush. He still sucks.


KJ makes a play on the ball.
- See above.
- We lucked out that the WR didn't catch it. KJ made no impact there.

KJ gets tripped up.
- Omg he just falls down again and again. the guy simply can't stay on his feet (never mind the previous 12 games).

KJ makes a stop on the run.
- crickets

KJ not targetted due to decent coverage
- Wow, our pass rush was great. Good safety help. Man thank goodness we have improved in both aspects that they didn't even have time to exploit our weakness. KJ.

KJ forces a game changing fumble
- Grover Quinn did an excellent job forcing that fumble.
(when it becomes apparent it was Quinn that forced the fumble).
- Grover Quinn did an excellent job of getting to that ball.
That's about the jist of it. Didn't even need to read through the thread. Thanks, man.

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Old 12-06-2011   #153
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by foo82 View Post
We can sum this thread and any future thread by the following scenarios/statements.

KJ gets beaten on a go or post route.
-He keeps falling down and we need to drop him. He sucks.

KJ makes an interception.
-Well, technically he got beaten and QB made a bad pass. It should have been a touchdown.
-He just happened to be in the right spot. You can thank wade phillips for the improved pass rush. He still sucks.


KJ makes a play on the ball.
- See above.
- We lucked out that the WR didn't catch it. KJ made no impact there.

KJ gets tripped up.
- Omg he just falls down again and again. the guy simply can't stay on his feet (never mind the previous 12 games).

KJ makes a stop on the run.
- crickets

KJ not targetted due to decent coverage
- Wow, our pass rush was great. Good safety help. Man thank goodness we have improved in both aspects that they didn't even have time to exploit our weakness. KJ.

KJ forces a game changing fumble
- Grover Quinn did an excellent job of getting to that ball.
Edit.
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Old 12-06-2011   #154
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GP View Post
I wish you could see the zoomed-in version. You'd see Kareem's hand so loosely cupped it looks like he's doing it just for the sake of getting some balance and sticking closer to Jones.

You know when a receiver places a hand on the top of the defender's shoulder pad to steady himself to make the jump up toward the ball? To steady himself, plain and simple. If anything, KJ is just trying to hang there in the pocket with Jones. I'm telling you guys, KJ wasn't ripping the guy's arm. The ball Kah-Pings! right off Jones' hands and then you see Jones still trying to use his hands to follow the ball downward and track it down to catch it...but it ricocheted so quickly that he had no chance at getting it. It was the very definition of stone hands.

In fact, michaelm, the replay will show that KJ's "iron-grip hand" comes off of Jones' bicep so easily and so quickly, that I don't even think KJ was pulling all that hard if any at all. There was no follow-through when KJ's hand detaches from Jones' bicep.

It's plausible that KJ wasn't tugging very hard, in my estimation at least, because he didn't want to get flagged for interference. That's a micro-second of time that he has to to decide if he makes the tug or doesn't...and perhaps HAD he tugged too hard, the ref flags him and the Falcons get the ball 1st and goal at the 1. So, all in all it's good that it worked out like it did.
I watched a zoomed in version here, at the 3:05 mark.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...ans-highlights

I agree that KJ didn't rip Jones' arm down. far from it really, but it looks to me like he might have pulled enough to keep Jones from following through with his left hand.
Really, we're micro-analyzing this thing to an impossible level, though.
It's basically assumption on my part that KJ pulled hard enough to keep Jones from clasping his hands enough to make the catch. I feel like it is also an assumption to conclude the opposite.
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Old 12-06-2011   #155
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Already before what? Jones initiates the entanglement by pushing off lightly with his left hand on KJ's chest number. This results in KJ's right arm being inside Jones' left arm as both go up to get the ball. KJ's arm was inside Jones' before the ball arrives.
Yep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
My interpretation is that Jones dropped the ball on his own, but even if he would've grasped it, KJ would've pulled his hands apart and dislodged the ball.
Agree.

I pulled up the DVR last night and ran that play back/forth on slow-mo (much to my wife's irritation) about 10 times. Anybody that says KJ didn't / couldn't have an effect on that play is dreaming. His arm COULD have ripped the ball away had it been necessary. Without interviewing Jones, who knows whether KJ's hand on his arm contributed to the non-catch.

KJ had a SOLID game, period.
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Old 12-06-2011   #156
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
Correct. I think Kareem Jackson had zero impact on the play. Julio Jones had the impact on the play because Julio Jones dropped the pass and it was right on his hands. Julio Jones and Roddy White were dropping passes all day long, btw.

If it makes you feel better, I also think Joseph screwed up by getting too deep into the corner of the end zone on the previous play. Roddy White boxed him out, and it looked like Shaq boxing out Spud Webb. Had that pass been a yard shorter, or had Roddy White gone a yard deeper and pushed joseph back even further...that's a TD and there's not even a Julio Jones-Kareem Jackson showdown with 1 second on the clock.

I am only saying that this idea that KJ saved the day? False. He was there. He didn't impact the play. Did he get the game ball? Yes. Fine, whatever, give everybody a game ball, big deal. I'm talking about us, right here, discussing how much "impact" he had on that play. He didn't. Julio jumped, didn't even have to jockey for position in order to jump for it, and the ball Kah-Ping! bounces off his hands and because KJ's hand is cupped on Jones' bicep it has turned into "KJ helped seal the victory." It's false.

I've praised the guy plenty and I mean it sincerely when I do praise the guy. Others, though, seem bent on saying that he is DEFINITELY improving and that the detractors are just hating for the sake of hating. The guy is splitting reps 50-50, he's being marginalized for a reason.
Had Kj not had any impact on the play, Julio would have had no reason to jump. Ryan wouldn't have had to throw it high. It would have been an easy pass & catch & we'd be talking about TJ Yates winning his first OT game.

Another thing, talking about how Kj is improving. It's been three weeks since anyone has said anything about Kj.... It took 3 weeks to pick on Kj. He hasn't been falling down, rookie WRs haven't been burning him. He hasn't been getting picked on.

& if you think about it, nobody is throwing his way.
.
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Old 12-06-2011   #157
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

I can do even better!

I can show that as Jones's left elbow came down, it hit KJ's wrist (and stalled).
Jones' two arms (and hands) are no longer balanced (on the same horizontal plane), causing the ball to slip out of his grab.

Any wager for a beer or two, LOL!?!
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Old 12-06-2011   #158
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

KJ has played like a stud the second half of the season. I don't know what Wade is putting in their water but I like it.
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Old 12-06-2011   #159
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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KJ forces a game changing fumble
- Grover Quinn did an excellent job forcing that fumble.
(when it becomes apparent it was Quinn that forced the fumble).
- Grover Quinn did an excellent job of getting to that ball.
Grover?

This isn't Sesame Street.
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Old 12-06-2011   #160
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Wade's happy with him... at least as half a starter

Kubiak is happy with Wade's decisions on defense

We are all happy with the results Wade's defense is producing

When do we end this thread??
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