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Old 12-25-2011   #381
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Having not been to any games in person this year, I can only comment on what I've seen on the televised games from the living room couch. From that perspective and having not kept a scorcard, it feels like JJ has gotten beat more often than KJ. At least on the big plays where the camera is isolated on the coverage. I can only assume that on these plays KJ had his man well covered, this being the reason the QB threw to the less covered player that JJ was on. I know it may be a simplistic view, but from the living room couch that's just the way it seems.
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Old 12-25-2011   #382
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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True, he was signed as a FA, but wasn't Allen a former 1st round pick a few years ago?
yeah he was, one that many claim is/was a bust. In Miami he got moved from CB to safety way to often to ever settle fully into one position, thats why i havent called him a bus, plus i like what i have seen from him since he's been here. 7 INTs in a season and a half is not half bad, especially for a guy who is splitting time.
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Old 12-25-2011   #383
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Having not been to any games in person this year, I can only comment on what I've seen on the televised games from the living room couch. From that perspective and having not kept a scorcard, it feels like JJ has gotten beat more often than KJ. At least on the big plays where the camera is isolated on the coverage. I can only assume that on these plays KJ had his man well covered, this being the reason the QB threw to the less covered player that JJ was on. I know it may be a simplistic view, but from the living room couch that's just the way it seems.
hmmm the front 7 dont leave much time for the QB to look at the whole field, and JoJo is always on the opponenets #1 which is where the QB looks first, but when we dont get any pressure is when you see KJ get beat by the #2, #3 WRs. I can tell you its def not because he has his guy well covered.
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Old 12-25-2011   #384
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Having not been to any games in person this year, I can only comment on what I've seen on the televised games from the living room couch. From that perspective and having not kept a scorcard, it feels like JJ has gotten beat more often than KJ. At least on the big plays where the camera is isolated on the coverage. I can only assume that on these plays KJ had his man well covered, this being the reason the QB threw to the less covered player that JJ was on. I know it may be a simplistic view, but from the living room couch that's just the way it seems.
I think you're right in that Kj is providing solid coverage, forcing the ball to go the other way. But just because Jjo's guy looks more open, Jjo's is there to make the play more often than not. When Kj's man is open, it's a completion more often than not. We've seen two last minute TDs thrown on KJ for a reason.

I'm one of the more patient fans when it comes to Kj, but he is not in Jjo's class yet. I think he's on track. Remember, Jjo's had been in the league since 2006, & his performance this year is surprising to everyone. Jjo's was also a 1st round pick.

While it was questionable that Jjo may have been Cincy's better corner, that argument didn't start until last year & they still let him go.
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Old 12-25-2011   #385
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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hmmm the front 7 dont leave much time for the QB to look at the whole field, and JoJo is always on the opponenets #1 which is where the QB looks first, but when we dont get any pressure is when you see KJ get beat by the #2, #3 WRs. I can tell you its def not because he has his guy well covered.
He was covering Reggie Wayne this last game. Only three balls were thrown his way (two completed) when covering Wayne. When Allen was on him they went to Wayne early & often.

INTs are nice, but I'd rather the QB not throw the ball that way at all.

Kj has a lot of work to do, I'm not saying he don't. But he's coming along fine.

& how many times are we seeing Kj getting beat by the 2s & 3s?

You can probably count the number of times on one hand for the whole season...

Well, maybe both hands.
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Old 12-25-2011   #386
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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He was covering Reggie Wayne this last game. Only three balls were thrown his way (two completed) when covering Wayne. When Allen was on him they went to Wayne early & often.

INTs are nice, but I'd rather the QB not throw the ball that way at all.

Kj has a lot of work to do, I'm not saying he don't. But he's coming along fine.

& how many times are we seeing Kj getting beat by the 2s & 3s?

You can probably count the number of times on one hand for the whole season...

Well, maybe both hands.
Kareem Allowed 2 receptions to Wayne, and 1 to Garcon he allowed a long of 34 to wayne and a long of 16 to Garcon the total yardage given up was 52 yards including the game winning TD . Allen allowed 6 to Wayne for 55 yards no big plays. DONT FORGET KJ only played a quarter and a half. Wayne was targeted 14 times so that means that allen only allowed 6 receptions on 11 attepmts his way, Reggie Wayne is no scrub.

AND QBs are not avoiding throwing KJs way, he has not earned that status or assumption on any fans part. The front 7 is protecting KJ.

BTW KJ only played a quarter and a half, dont try to make it sound like he shut down Wayne, cause when it mattered he didnt do shit but give up the biggest play of the game and allow the winning TD.
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Old 12-25-2011   #387
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Kareem Allowed 2 receptions to Wayne, and 1 to Garcon he allowed a long of 34 to wayne and a long of 16 to Garcon the total yardage given up was 52 yards including the game winning TD . Allen allowed 6 to Wayne for 55 yards no big plays. DONT FORGET KJ only played a quarter and a half. Wayne was targeted 14 times so that means that allen only allowed 6 receptions on 11 attepmts his way, Reggie Wayne is no scrub.

AND QBs are not avoiding throwing KJs way, he has not earned that status or assumption on any fans part. The front 7 is protecting KJ.
I'm not saying that Kj has earned that status, I'm saying it looks like he will. Wayne is no scrub & Kj covered him very well.

I've stated in another post, when Kj's guy is opened, it's most likely a completion. But I also stated his guy is rarely opened. He needs to get better, be more consistent.

I don't think he's perfect by any means, but I think he's developing well as an NFL CB. He will never be the guy who gets a lot of INTs, but I think he'll be a shutdown corner soon.

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BTW KJ only played a quarter and a half, dont try to make it sound like he shut down Wayne, cause when it mattered he didnt do shit but give up the biggest play of the game and allow the winning TD.
Cromartie got his ass whooped against the Giants. He's been doing this for 6 years & many (not me) consider him to be a good corner..... maybe an upgrade over Kareem, even though Kareem has not had a game that bad this year.

We've got the #3 pass defense in the league, surely Kj has something to do with that.

He's not perfect, he'll still get beat at inopportune times. He should be a clear cut starter in his second year. For whatever reason, he is not. But I think he's getting better.
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Old 12-25-2011   #388
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Just because the ball isn't thrown a corners way doesn't always mean they are covering well. They showed some clips from the colts game on espn and orvlosky made some bad decisions. The other receiver was open and he went after jjo anyways. Sometimes qbs make bad reads, sometimes the coverage dictates where the ball is thrown, sometimes qbs stay away from certain guys. As far as kareem goes, he's been ok. If I had my way wed be challenging him with better players in the off season though because I do believe we can get better there. I don't think he's been so good that you pencil him in as the guy there for the next few years.

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Old 12-25-2011   #389
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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I'm not saying that Kj has earned that status, I'm saying it looks like he will. Wayne is no scrub & Kj covered him very well.

I've stated in another post, when Kj's guy is opened, it's most likely a completion. But I also stated his guy is rarely opened. He needs to get better, be more consistent.

I don't think he's perfect by any means, but I think he's developing well as an NFL CB. He will never be the guy who gets a lot of INTs, but I think he'll be a shutdown corner soon.



Cromartie got his ass whooped against the Giants. He's been doing this for 6 years & many (not me) consider him to be a good corner..... maybe an upgrade over Kareem, even though Kareem has not had a game that bad this year.

We've got the #3 pass defense in the league, surely Kj has something to do with that.

He's not perfect, he'll still get beat at inopportune times. He should be a clear cut starter in his second year. For whatever reason, he is not. But I think he's getting better.
yes we have the #3 pass defense. the front 7 can contribute to that more than the secondary. Kind of like last season when the pass defense was so horrible it made the run defense look good.

You have to admit that our guys up front dont leave much time for QBs to find the open guys. So that alone is helping the pass defense.
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Old 12-25-2011   #390
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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yes we have the #3 pass defense. the front 7 can contribute to that more than the secondary. Kind of like last season when the pass defense was so horrible it made the run defense look good.

You have to admit that our guys up front dont leave much time for QBs to find the open guys. So that alone is helping the pass defense.
I agree both ways. The lack of a pass rush last year made Kareem look a lot worse than he was. Other than the falling down thing, he looked good in coverage, as good as you'd expect from a rookie corner unless you drafted Deon Sanders or Charles Woodson.

I'm not blaming everything on the safeties either, but there were times when they made him look worse than what he was.

This year, the pass rush is helping him out, never said otherwise, but Kareem's coverage, Jjo, & better play from the safeties is also helping the front 7. QBs are having to go through their progression, their double guessing themselves, and aren't nearly as quick to get rid of the ball as they were last year.
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Old 12-25-2011   #391
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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I agree both ways. The lack of a pass rush last year made Kareem look a lot worse than he was. Other than the falling down thing, he looked good in coverage, as good as you'd expect from a rookie corner unless you drafted Deon Sanders or Charles Woodson.

I'm not blaming everything on the safeties either, but there were times when they made him look worse than what he was.

This year, the pass rush is helping him out, never said otherwise, but Kareem's coverage, Jjo, & better play from the safeties is also helping the front 7. QBs are having to go through their progression, their double guessing themselves, and aren't nearly as quick to get rid of the ball as they were last year.
yep the front 7 help the secondary and vice versa. IMHO i just see to many coverage mistakes on KJs part, and he lacks the speed to keep up with deep threat WRs. Noone can deny that. I will say he is playing better than last season, but i'm still not impressed. To me i think they should of turned KJ into a safety and left GQ at CB. I think KJ has all the tools to be a very good NFL safety just dont think he will ever be a starting CB, thats just my opinion.
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Old 12-25-2011   #392
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Just because the ball isn't thrown a corners way doesn't always mean they are covering well. They showed some clips from the colts game on espn and orvlosky made some bad decisions. The other receiver was open and he went after jjo anyways. Sometimes qbs make bad reads, sometimes the coverage dictates where the ball is thrown, sometimes qbs stay away from certain guys. As far as kareem goes, he's been ok. If I had my way wed be challenging him with better players in the off season though because I do believe we can get better there. I don't think he's been so good that you pencil him in as the guy there for the next few years.

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I hear ya... But I'm going mostly on what I see. Because Kareem gets so much slack, I spend a lot of my time watching him. Not very easy to do watching TV, but in this game the angles they showed most plays, you could see the CBs a lot.

When I'm at the games, I'm watching Jacoby (for the same reason) & Kj. Kj's coverage skills are pretty damn good. Changing directions, very good. getting his hands on the ball, muy mal. Timing his hits.... not very good.

Jacoby, not very physical for his size, runs pretty good routes, & I don't think anyone can really cover him.... he just can't catch the ball.
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Old 12-26-2011   #393
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Kareem Allowed 2 receptions to Wayne, and 1 to Garcon he allowed a long of 34 to wayne and a long of 16 to Garcon the total yardage given up was 52 yards including the game winning TD . Allen allowed 6 to Wayne for 55 yards no big plays. DONT FORGET KJ only played a quarter and a half. Wayne was targeted 14 times so that means that allen only allowed 6 receptions on 11 attepmts his way, Reggie Wayne is no scrub.

AND QBs are not avoiding throwing KJs way, he has not earned that status or assumption on any fans part. The front 7 is protecting KJ.

BTW KJ only played a quarter and a half, dont try to make it sound like he shut down Wayne, cause when it mattered he didnt do shit but give up the biggest play of the game and allow the winning TD.
Why is it that KJ is being protected by the front 7, but it doesn't go the same way for Allen? KJ only succeeds because of the help around him, but Allen forces turnovers and makes big plays (no mention of the defense as a whole).
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Old 12-26-2011   #394
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Why is it that KJ is being protected by the front 7, but it doesn't go the same way for Allen? KJ only succeeds because of the help around him, but Allen forces turnovers and makes big plays (no mention of the defense as a whole).
buddy i am going off of what allen has done this season and last season, allen was out playing KJ and still creating turnovers last season when we had no pressure all season long. The whole secondary is now benefiting from the front 7 play if you have read all my posts in this thread i said the whole secondary is getting help from the front 7, not just KJ.
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Old 12-26-2011   #395
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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buddy i am going off of what allen has done this season and last season, allen was out playing KJ and still creating turnovers last season when we had no pressure all season long. The whole secondary is now benefiting from the front 7 play if you have read all my posts in this thread i said the whole secondary is getting help from the front 7, not just KJ.
I completely agree with this entire post. Allen outplayed KJ last year. The front 7 got better this season. Both CBs benefited from the improvement. This includes JJo.

Then, I'll add my own statement: with the pressure, both KJ and Allen are contributing on defense to give us the defensive ranking we have now. KJ is not on the receiving end only of our top defense, and he is not pulling us down. He is contributing. As is Allen.
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Old 12-26-2011   #396
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Then, I'll add my own statement: with the pressure, both KJ and Allen are contributing on defense to give us the defensive ranking we have now. KJ is not on the receiving end only of our top defense, and he is not pulling us down. He is contributing. As is Allen.
Yes they are both contributing on defense and both have done a pretty good job actually. The ONLY reason i attack KJ the way i do is because of the certain few who always attack J. Allen who is also far from perfect. I will admith Allen is no shut down CB, but i cant stand how some people refuse to see some of the mistakes that KJ makes, and they always look for excuses.

My hatred for KJ is not as bad as everyone thinks infact if not for certain people on here i would actually show more support for him, but we all know when he makes a mistake and i cant stand to see people defend a player with B.S excuses all the time.
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Old 12-26-2011   #397
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Yes they are both contributing on defense and both have done a pretty good job actually. The ONLY reason i attack KJ the way i do is because of the certain few who always attack J. Allen who is also far from perfect. I will admith Allen is no shut down CB, but i cant stand how some people refuse to see some of the mistakes that KJ makes, and they always look for excuses.

My hatred for KJ is not as bad as everyone thinks infact if not for certain people on here i would actually show more support for him, but we all know when he makes a mistake and i cant stand to see people defend a player with B.S excuses all the time.
To be fair, I think it's only 1 person.

For the last 4 or 5 games, I've actually been commenting on Allen's improvement.

& I've never said Kj is perfect.

I don't agree with those who say he doesn't have speed to stay with receivers on the deep routes... I think that's what you said. He's got the speed... he has no make-up speed, if he's beat, it's over. He has poor ball skills. But speed, he's got enough speed to play the position.
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Old 12-26-2011   #398
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
To be fair, I think it's only 1 person.

For the last 4 or 5 games, I've actually been commenting on Allen's improvement.

& I've never said Kj is perfect.

I don't agree with those who say he doesn't have speed to stay with receivers on the deep routes... I think that's what you said. He's got the speed... he has no make-up speed, if he's beat, it's over. He has poor ball skills. But speed, he's got enough speed to play the position.
yes he has the speed, but if he losses the WR for 1 second and the WR gets behind him he is toast, most CBs can kick it into another gear if they get beat deep, but KJ cant. To me that is a downfall, thats why i think KJ would be a really really good NFL safety.
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Old 12-27-2011   #399
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Well..haven't really attacked ALlen since the Dolphins game. But, I have been critical of Jjoe lately. I still don't get why he gets a free pass. Kjax has been consistent most of the season and gave up a few plays, then the boards completely blows up. I've probably seen JJoe give up more plays then I have seen Kjax.
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Old 12-27-2011   #400
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

I don't know if there is any merit to this, but to me it seems like KJ plays well when it's not a goal line situation like it was last week against the Colts. He seems to make more plays in the middle of the field. I think that's where I would use him more instead of goal line defense. He's a good tackler but I think Jason Allen should be playing more in those red zone situations.
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