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Old 12-07-2011   #241
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
Frozen? Who said anything about frozen?

Just in case you didn't know the safety has to honor the fact that one if those verticals can actually turn into a post. He cannot "head straight to the receiver" as you said. That doesn't make any sense at all.

If that is the case then he is just doubling the receiver and that's not what happened.

He cannot head straight to the receiver and then one of the receivers on the other side of the field heads towards the middle and now you have one on one coverage.

Like I said, you can preach this stuff to some people but I know better. Me playing on the line has nothing to do with anything. I was in all kind of meeting rooms at some point. I've played scout team and heard defensive coaches coaching. I've been in special team meeting rooms and offensive meeting rooms.

I've heard the qb coach talking to the qb telling him what to look for.

You know, you just pick up on stuff after being around so long. And I can tell that most of the stuff you preach is stuff you read somewhere and interpreted for yourself and not stuff you have learned from experience. It's cookie cutter, often doesn't make sense and doesn't take live football into the equation.
In a 5-deep, the middle DB will pick up the post route from the other side.
Demps has nothing to do with it!
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Old 12-07-2011   #242
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The first one was closer to being a catch but you gave plenty of credit to Allen.
The second is never going to be a catch (even if Julio didn't step out of bound) and you have to add "they are either targeting Kareem".
It was good coverage by both, but you touted one and downplayed the other (by sidetracking).
I didn't downplay Kareem.

Not sure how you mistake "kareem was smothering him and was in pretty good position" as down playing it.

And you are making my point for me. The catch Allen defended against actually had a chance of being a long completion for a td. It was just a straight go route.

The one to Kareem was a half hearted out and up that just looked like improvisation by Julio on a busted play.

It had no chance of being a completion because Julio ran himself out of bounds whereas Allen forced him to the sideline on his defended pass.

Go back and listen to the announcers talk about Allen using the sideline as his friend.

And you're still missing the point. I wasn't even comparing the two of them on that play. I was pointing out that Julio is capable of making catches with defenders all over him. But somehow you seem to be conveniently ignoring that point along with the fact that the coaches trusted Allen to be in the game more in that situation. So much, that they had him in there for the last two defensive series over kj.
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Old 12-07-2011   #243
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In a 5-deep, the middle DB will pick up the post route from the other side.
Demps has nothing to do with it!
Yes he would have had the ball been thrown in his zone to a receiver coming from the other side of the field.

You act like receivers run routes and just stop where their route is supposed to end. Lots of times receivers will run through multiple zones. Especially if the qb has time to scramble and buy extra time. That is why he cannot immediately abandon his responsibility. It's easy to say in hindsight but at the time he doesn't know what's coming. He doesn't know when Ryan is going to throw the ball. He doesn't know where it will be thrown to.

You cannot just look at the formation and say "run straight to that receiver". Again, that makes absolutely no sense. Those receivers could end up anywhere.
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Old 12-07-2011   #244
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
The out and up, the fade route and then on the last drive when Allen got hurt every pass that was actually caught or had a chance at being caught was against Kareem.
So you call a 26-yd wheel route and a 20-yd into the zone a bad day vs. the good plays he made?
And let me remind you that on the last drive, there were 3 passes thrown his way, including that 20-yd pass into the zone.
The other two were incomplettions, one with perfect coverage by Jackson and the other is a game-changer (whatever percentage you want to credit him for on the last play.)
If he bombed, they tied the game.

He didn't, and we won!
And here you give me this sheete!
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Old 12-07-2011   #245
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Yes he would have had the ball been thrown in his zone to a receiver coming from the other side of the field.

You act like receivers run routes and just stop where their route is supposed to end. Lots of times receivers will run through multiple zones. Especially if the qb has time to scramble and buy extra time. That is why he cannot immediately abandon his responsibility. It's easy to say in hindsight but at the time he doesn't know what's coming. He doesn't know when Ryan is going to throw the ball. He doesn't know where it will be thrown to.

You cannot just look at the formation and say "run straight to that receiver". Again, that makes absolutely no sense. Those receivers could end up anywhere.
I have no idea what yor talking about.

The inside receiver from the other side (the only one who can threaten a post route) was double teamed (basically) by the deep left DB and the underneath defender; then there was the middle safety.

Demps has nothing to do with it at any given moment of the play!
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Old 12-07-2011   #246
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So you call a 26-yd wheel route and a 20-yd into the zone a bad day vs. the good plays he made?
And let me remind you that on the last drive, there were 3 passes thrown his way, including that 20-yd pass into the zone.
The other two were incomplettions, one with perfect coverage by Jackson and the other is a game-changer (whatever percentage you want to credit him for on the last play.)
If he bombed, they tied the game.

He didn't, and we won!
And here you give me this sheete!
Please show me where I said he had a bad day.

And I said that they were passing his way quite a bit on that last drive. I said either they were targeting him, really like Julio or were afraid of Joseph. Or maybe some combo of the three.

That said, on the td drive they had Julio beat Kareem to set them up down at the goal line.

Maybe I'm wrong, but in think all of Julio's completions came against Kareem. That's through out the game, not just on the last drive.

And yes I said they may have been targeting Kareem on that last drive. Please forgive me in advance.
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Old 12-07-2011   #247
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I have no idea what yor talking about.
I know.
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Old 12-07-2011   #248
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Earlier in the thread, on the game ball being given to Kareem, you say he should "cut it in half and give the other half to Jason Allen", which obviously says you don't believe he deserved it. You have gone on and on this subject of Kareem not actually being part of the number 1 defense, that they've done it in spite of him.
No, I said that to show 76 how absurd his statement was. He was trying to use that as some sort of trump card that was supposed to be a nail in the coffin of my position on THIS ISSUE.

Plus, I've seen what I can only assume is some Alabama fans on here getting butt hurt whenever #25 is held accountable to his mistakes. I can't otherwise begin to understand the sharp replies about a guy none of you have met but surely have seen play on Sundays. He's not special, yet, and the jury is still out on the issue of his improvement form last year to this year...give me a full season of the guy NOT splitting time at CB2 before you and 76 try to string me up on "hater" charges, please.

By the way, big damn deal if he got a game ball.

If I wanted to really rub 76's face in his little distraction excursion, I could have said this instead:

Little kids who attend a friend's birthday end up going home with a goodie bag too. What did the kids do to get gifts tossed right back at them on their way out the door? Nothing much, really. They brought a gift for the birthday boy and someone somewhere started this tradition of making the non-birthday kids feel almost as special as the birthday boy. Result: "Hey, it's ok Tommy! I know it sucked watching the birthday boy get all those cool gifts...so we put together a plastic baggie that has silly puddy, some bubble gum, and a kazoo in it. See? You got something too!"

But I didn't say that. I would never say that. I think the car pooling system he and Jason Allen are a part of is speaking for itself, and the video shows that we can slow down on any talk of KJ saving the day by pulling Julio Jones' arm down on the last play. It's a phantom existence. He wasn't bad, he's playing decent, but the deep stuff is still tricky for him and that's where a team with a good QB (Saints, for example) will make their hay on us.

At this point, I think we've got around 3 or 4 other secondary players who could play CB2 as good as (or even better than) Kareem Jackson. Credit the Texans for being patient and at least trying to bring the guy along...but that doesn't mean he gets goodie bags when it isn't his birthday to begin with. There, I said it.
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Old 12-07-2011   #249
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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I didn't downplay Kareem.

Not sure how you mistake "kareem was smothering him and was in pretty good position" as down playing it.

And you are making my point for me. The catch Allen defended against actually had a chance of being a long completion for a td. It was just a straight go route.

The one to Kareem was a half hearted out and up that just looked like improvisation by Julio on a busted play.

It had no chance of being a completion because Julio ran himself out of bounds whereas Allen forced him to the sideline on his defended pass.

Go back and listen to the announcers talk about Allen using the sideline as his friend.

And you're still missing the point. I wasn't even comparing the two of them on that play. I was pointing out that Julio is capable of making catches with defenders all over him. But somehow you seem to be conveniently ignoring that point along with the fact that the coaches trusted Allen to be in the game more in that situation. So much, that they had him in there for the last two defensive series over kj.
Trust me, I do not miss any of your point; it is your hidden agenda that I'm pointing out!

Jackson played the first 2 series in the first half (4 plays).
Allen then played the next 2 series (8 plays).
Jaclson the played the next 2 series (13 plays).
Allen played the last series of the half (3 plays)

Jackson then played the first 2 series of the second half (19 plays)
Allen played the third series (12 plays).
On the last drive, Allen was hurt during the first play, Jackson played the last 7 snaps.

Somewhere during the game, Allen was inserted in for a couple of plays (while Jackson was also in there) after McCain whiffed on a play.
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Old 12-07-2011   #250
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Please show me where I said he had a bad day.

And I said that they were passing his way quite a bit on that last drive. I said either they were targeting him, really like Julio or were afraid of Joseph. Or maybe some combo of the three.

That said, on the td drive they had Julio beat Kareem to set them up down at the goal line.

Maybe I'm wrong, but in think all of Julio's completions came against Kareem. That's through out the game, not just on the last drive.

And yes I said they may have been targeting Kareem on that last drive. Please forgive me in advance.
And the results?
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Old 12-07-2011   #251
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Please show me where I said he had a bad day.

And I said that they were passing his way quite a bit on that last drive. I said either they were targeting him, really like Julio or were afraid of Joseph. Or maybe some combo of the three.

That said, on the td drive they had Julio beat Kareem to set them up down at the goal line.

Maybe I'm wrong, but in think all of Julio's completions came against Kareem. That's through out the game, not just on the last drive.

And yes I said they may have been targeting Kareem on that last drive. Please forgive me in advance.
You get lumped into the hater crowd because you're not 100% supportive of his position right from the get-go. You didn't commit one way or another, or at least not as loud and proud as he wanted you (and others) to do...so you earned your scorn by default.

That's what is so irritating. 76 can show 1,245 screen shots and I do ONE video and all hell breaks loose. The teacher couldn't handle being the pupil, which I figured would end up happening. It's not every day someone else comes in and takes what 76 does and quadruples its intended effect upon the masses here.

Obviously, I touched a nerve with him and what I am beginning to assume are other 'Bama fans who are not pleased with my critique of one of their guys.

We saw this with the I Love David Carr crowd, of which I was a member of until one day I noticed I was wearing the same "I Love David Carr" shirt as his family was wearing. Since then, I've learned to be a lot more OBJECTIVE about the Texans players.

It's possible that a 1st round draft pick is going to struggle. We've seen it with David Carr, Travis Johnson, and Amobi Okoye. What is telling, however, is that only NOW do you see Gary Kubiak abandoning the concept of a 1st rounder being given the starting role no matter what the 1st rounder's play looks like. Kareem is the first guy who is being held back for Remedial NFL Starter class by Kubiak.

Finally, the guy gets it. In a true Do or Die year, Gary Kubiak and Wade Phillips have understood that a guy like Kareem needs to get some clarity and just watch every now and then...not sat out completely, just in and out of the lineup and not made to be the hero all day long. But alas, this last paragraph will be ignored and only my stinging comments will be quoted and used against me.

I'm sure Kareem and his teammates were proud of him for hanging in there and not panicking. He got the game ball, and I nor anybody is going to take it away from him. Sometimes, a guy needs some public acknowledgment like that in order to take a bigger step up the ladder. It's a motivator, and he played decent that game with a pick and he got to his man on the last play.
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Old 12-07-2011   #252
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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I know.
You must also know that I meant the same thing, LOL!
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Old 12-07-2011   #253
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Trust me, I do not miss any of your point; it is your hidden agenda that I'm pointing out!

Jackson played the first 2 series in the first half (4 plays).
Allen then played the next 2 series (8 plays).
Jaclson the played the next 2 series (13 plays).
Allen played the last series of the half (3 plays)

Jackson then played the first 2 series of the second half (19 plays)
Allen played the third series (12 plays).
On the last drive, Allen was hurt during the first play, Jackson played the last 7 snaps.

Somewhere during the game, Allen was inserted in for a couple of plays (while Jackson was also in there) after McCain whiffed on a play.
He has no hidden agenda. I have known rey for YEARS here, and I can tell you this about him: The guy will not agree with a person JUST to get along. He might like you and what you have to say on Topic A...but then he will just as readily argue with you about your take on Topic Z. Some people tend to align themselves with others and adopt the other person's stance on almost everything, and I haven't noticed rey doing that. He's not agenda-driven, IMO.

Me thinks you are projecting things onto rey that describe you instead.

Rey drifts in and out of conversations and actually seems to rarely have "a dog" in any fight on here. One of the more objective guys on this board, tbh.

Carry on, though.
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Old 12-07-2011   #254
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

GP, stop putting words into my mouth please!

I have no problem with your vid nor other posters' vids and screen shots.
I go through them all as time allows.

So far I'm still on point.
What I said is that I like to see both Allen and Jackson competing for the job, may the best man win.

The best guy is starting and play more.

I don't care who the haters are.

All I know is that those who said Allen would be the starting CB have yet to be proven correct!
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Old 12-07-2011   #255
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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GP, stop putting words into my mouth please!

I have no problem with your vid nor other posters' vids and screen shots.
I go through them all as time allows.

So far I'm still on point.
What I said is that I like to see both Allen and Jackson competing for the job, may the best man win.

The best guy is starting and play more.

I don't care who the haters are.

All I know is that those who said Allen would be the starting CB have yet to be proven correct!
The last three sentences prove it, 76.

1. "The best guy is starting"....Yet he doesn't play anymore than roughly half the snaps as his underling Jason Allen does.

2. You don't care who the haters are, but you attack them anyways and play all sorts of trump cards and trash talk those who aren't on board with "the best guy who is starting."

3. The "Nanny-Nanny-Boo-Boo!" final sentence is the death knell. If this were a mission on L.A. Noire, your interrogation would have been the first mission where the gamer is led through a tutorial to tell how to judge a witness's testimony.

I had a friend like this back in junior high, 76. He thought The Bash Brothers were gods on earth, and nobody dared to debate him on the matter. And if you did, you got "Nanny-Nanny-Boo-Boo!" treatment just like what you're doing.

I'm done (and the crowd said, "Hooooraaayyyy!!!" )
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Old 12-07-2011   #256
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

For a guy who likes to present logic, you sure know how to use all kind of false logic in the book, LOL!

Ad hominem, circular, just name it!

Stay on the topic, GP.

Who's the starter?
Jackson!

Did you predic that Allen would get the starting nod?
If you did, you can wait some more!

Those are facts, and not trash talk!
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Old 12-07-2011   #257
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Ok, Julio makes another catch with Kareem all over him at about the 10 but it is called back because Julio stepped out of bounds. But they are either targeting Kareem or they are in love with Julio or they are scared of jo.
If you watch, Ryan looks at Roddy first a couple of times, but Jjo has him covered pretty good.

On this particular pass though, if you're going to credit to Allen for getting Julio out of bounds earlier, the same should go for Kj here. Kareem does a good job of not letting Julio go where he wants to go & therefore steps out of bounds.

It was really a pretty good battle, That play setting Atlanta up for their first touchdown, that was just a cleanly executed, well designed play. Kj could have played it be
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Old 12-07-2011   #258
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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...after watching it I'm less impressed with what he did.

He looked up, located the ball and failed to put his body in between the receiver and the ball. Maybe he was afraid of pi, or maybe he was intimidated by the fact that Julio had made some nice plays on him on that drive and a couple earlier in the game but in all honestly that's a catch Julio should have made.
I do agree with this 100%

Kj shouldn't have been worried about a PI because he has as much right to the ball as Julio. He should have made a positive play on the ball instead of letting himself get easily pushed out of the way by Julio. Kj's eyes are clearly on the ball if there was going to be a PI it would have been on Julio.


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Now you can disagree with that if you want, but I had to look again for myself and I think anyone saying Kareem is mostly the reason for the drop is incorrect.
But this is the NFL, where Bernard Pollards get credit (or should) for receivers alligator-arming passes thrown across the middle. If Kareem is not in the play, I believe Julio makes that catch. Whether it's a mental thing or not doesn't matter. If he's not having to push Kareem out of the way, if he's not having to jump & contort his body.

Andre made a heck of a catch last year against Washington in a pretty similar situation. We consider it a heck of a catch, because he had to fight for it. Take the DBs out of that play, it's still a nice catch, but not as memorable.

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Old 12-07-2011   #259
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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By the way, big damn deal if he got a game ball.
It is a big deal that Kubiak gave him a game ball. I'm watching the game & I'm actually thinking Kareem has had better games. I don't necessarily agree with giving him a game ball, but I do believe if Gary & co. saw reason for it, then they saw reason for it.

He's had better opportunities to make a good "gesture" so I don't think that is what it was.

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He's not special, yet, and the jury is still out on the issue of his improvement form last year to this year...give me a full season of the guy NOT splitting time at CB2 before you and 76 try to string me up on "hater" charges, please.
I think splitting time says more about Jason Allen than it does about Kareem Jackson. Jason Allen has played well this season & is improving as a player as much as Kareem is. He deserves to be on the field.

That's like Tim Jamison getting more snaps, it's not that JJ Watt or Antonio Smith are not living up to their expectations, Tim Jamison is balling & deserves more time on the field.
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But I didn't say that. I would never say that. I think the car pooling system he and Jason Allen are a part of is speaking for itself, and the video shows that we can slow down on any talk of KJ saving the day by pulling Julio Jones' arm down on the last play. It's a phantom existence.
To say he had no affect on the play at all just doesn't make sense.

It's difficult to argue the "saving the day" argument, because no one is saying he saved the day. He made a play, the ball wasn't caught, end of story.

It would have been great if he intercepted the ball & took it back for 6, but he didn't & that's ok.

It's like saying "Andre didn't do anything special on that 50 yard reception. TJ put the ball in front of him, all he had to do was put his arms out & catch it. Yeah there was a DB draped all over him, but he didn't affect the catch. Yeah he touched Andre's arm, but he didn't wrap his hands around his biceps & forcefully separate his hands from the ball. We expect Andre to make that catch. If that was the other team's #1 receiver, you expect him to make that catch."



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He wasn't bad, he's playing decent, but the deep stuff is still tricky for him and that's where a team with a good QB (Saints, for example) will make their hay on us.
Really?

Because I don't remember Drew Brees going deep on Kj, none that were successful anyway. Wouldn't that make you think he can hold his own? He played a lot of snaps in that Saints game. He played on the majority of the defensive possessions. There was only one drive where he was targeted three times.

For all the snaps he took in that game, we only talk about those three.

I think that says something about his play against the top NFL offenses.

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At this point, I think we've got around 3 or 4 other secondary players who could play CB2 as good as (or even better than) Kareem Jackson. Credit the Texans for being patient and at least trying to bring the guy along...but that doesn't mean he gets goodie bags when it isn't his birthday to begin with. There, I said it.
We just finished playing our 12th game. We're the number two defense in the league (really the 1b defense if you think about it). We are #4 in passing yards allowed. We are #1 in opposing QBR. We are #2 in scoring defense.

Kj got one game ball.

I don't think we're handing them out to all the kids that came to the party.
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Old 12-07-2011   #260
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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It was really a pretty good battle, That play setting Atlanta up for their first touchdown, that was just a cleanly executed, well designed play. Kj could have played it better
Yes...It was a good battle...

Without actually looking the stats or the film I'd say that it was about half and half...

Julio won some, Kareem won some.
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