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Old 12-06-2011   #181
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Originally Posted by fiasco west View Post
Man no one but Julio knows how much impact KJs hand played.

Can we just end this and all admit that Kareem had a good day? That's what this all comes down to any ways. Some folks don't want to say it, he got the game ball and had a pretty good game against Julio Jones and I know a lot of folks expected otherwise.

He splits time with Allen sure but can some folks just admit the dude had a good game? He's on your favorite team, be happy that he's showing improvement.

Good Luck, I am all for it.

I would love to end this thread and start something positive.

I do think the fact that he got the game ball should carry more weight than message board opinions.
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Old 12-06-2011   #182
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

That's IT!!
you two...
Pistols at dawn
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Old 12-06-2011   #183
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Why would KJ want to move his arm in unison with Julio?
The idea here is to affect the ball and/or one of the receiver's arm to make it as difficult for him to hand on to the ball as possible.

You want to seperate the receiver's arms and/or get contact with the ball to increase the difficulty level of the catch for the receiver.
Julio got two hands on the ball, 76, but just as soon as he touches that ball...he's already goober-smooching it away with or without KJ's hand there!

This is the whole point: KJ did NOT, ultimately, cause Julio Jones to do what Julio Jones had already done to himself. The rest of it is a MOOT point, to try and predict if he would have retained possession or not.

The whole headline being propagated is that KJ saved the day. He didn't. Julio Jones did. And before him, Matt Ryan and Roddy White.

We can give credit to players when they actively AFFECT the play and stop something. We shouldn't be giving credit to them when the opponent does it to themselves.
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Old 12-06-2011   #184
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Alright I think we really are splitting hairs here - some are seeing a tiny motion by KJ that impacted the drop, the others are seeing KJ`s hand in there pulling after JJ drops the ball.

I think one thing is certain: without KJ right there, JJ makes the catch. Whether it is nerves, fear (KJ made a couple of big hits before) or KJ`s arm that caused the drop doesn`t really matter in the end.

It was a very catchable ball even with the things KJ did - if that was our JJ we would be on him as dropping another ball. BUT KJ did enough to make their JJ drop it. And in the end that`s all that matters.

Oh and by the way, JJ pushed off a little before he jumped - and personally I see KJ`s hand form into a firm grip the second JJ touches the ball. Not much of a pull, but he definetly did impact the play. Not a sensational play by KJ, probably not even a good but just a decent play - but he did get the job done and played a very good game before.

And one other thing is clear to me: if that was any other player than KJ we wouldn`t have this conversation. On Offense if we score because of a bad angle or bad coverage we wouldn`t have this kind of lengthy conversation. After last year KJ is still a person non grata to many fans and he plays under a microscope (as this thread shows) - and is often judged unfair. Let this kid develop and play.
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Old 12-06-2011   #185
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
Julio got two hands on the ball, 76, but just as soon as he touches that ball...he's already goober-smooching it away with or without KJ's hand there!

This is the whole point: KJ did NOT, ultimately, cause Julio Jones to do what Julio Jones had already done to himself. The rest of it is a MOOT point, to try and predict if he would have retained possession or not.

The whole headline being propagated is that KJ saved the day. He didn't. Julio Jones did. And before him, Matt Ryan and Roddy White.

We can give credit to players when they actively AFFECT the play and stop something. We shouldn't be giving credit to them when the opponent does it to themselves.
1. Let's say Julio managed to hang on to the ball a little longer, there's nothing to indicate that he will be able to maintain possession of the ball throughout the catch as KJ's hand was in there.

2. It was not a catch as it was.

3. KJ got the game ball.

I WIN!
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Old 12-06-2011   #186
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

You know, I sit here and put video AND photos together...showing that Kareem Jackson didn't affect the play...and it's deemed to be something we need to move on from, or that he got the game ball and that carries more weight?

OK. So much for objective analysis.

People also thought there should have been a penalty when the defender drove Yates into the ground. I can show video that displays Eric Winston missing the block completely and then catapulting the defender into Yates...effectively "blocking the defender" into Yates. But what would it be worth? It's easier to say "We got screwed on a non-call!" or "KJ was there and affected the play!"

Let's not discuss it. No, let's say what we feel and just roll with that. LOL.
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Old 12-06-2011   #187
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

We need a pissing contest smiley.

Correct me if I am wrong but aren't we 3rd n pass defense?
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Old 12-06-2011   #188
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
1. Let's say Julio managed to hang on to the ball a little longer, there's nothing to indicate that he will be able to maintain possession of the ball throughout the catch as KJ's hand was in there.

2. It was not a catch as it was.

3. KJ got the game ball.

I WIN!
Answers:

1. There's nothing that says he WON'T maintain possession and that he can't out-muscle a smaller Kareem Jackson who has only ONE HAND in there against another man's two arms. That's a poor argument, 76.

2. You're right, but you can't sit there and draw red lines and think that because Julio's elbow is lower than the other one that it means KJ was pulling that arm. Look at the FREAKING video in super slow-motion (the final slow motion clip) and you'll see it. The photos also show that KJ has no grip, is NOT pulling, and quite frankly his arm stays in the exact same position while Julio's arms snap downward CHASING THE BALL because he knew he screwed up at the beginning of the catch.

3. He got the game ball? Good for him. Now he should cut it in half and give the other half to Jason Allen. FTW.
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Old 12-06-2011   #189
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
With all due respect, when you see the job I'm posting to YouTube as I type this (the video is rendering in YouTube right now) you will see that your little red lines don't do much nor prove much.

I'm about to make the teacher the student here on this particular item.

I am about to prove to the jury that Julio Jones had the ball, and that KJ's hand was never (a) wrapped around a bicep, nor (b) pulling Julio's arm down, and (c) that KJ's arm remains in the same position and never moves down nor toward himself in a tugging motion.

In fact, in the slow-motion portion of my video analysis you can see that KJ's hand releases very easily. You can see a black space between KJ's hand and JJ's bicep...indicating that KJ had ZERO grip on the bicep.

KJ's hand was in there, but it played (drum roll, please....) NO part in Julio dropping the pass. He had dropped it almost as quickly as he had caught it. He snaps his own arms downward and cannot gather it in.

Video coming soon.
I don't care if Kareem was standing 2 feet from Julio Jones & screamed boo with a real mean look on his face.

Kareem was there when the pass was broken up.

Period.
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Old 12-06-2011   #190
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

After looking at GP's pictures and stuff, I believe KJ jumped in the air, caught the ball, and tried to hand it to the receiver before his feet touched the ground, but the receiver dropped the hand-off. KJ deserves the game ball for not successfully handing it off.
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Old 12-06-2011   #191
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GP View Post
You know, I sit here and put video AND photos together...showing that Kareem Jackson didn't affect the play...and it's deemed to be something we need to move on from, or that he got the game ball and that carries more weight?

OK. So much for objective analysis.

People also thought there should have been a penalty when the defender drove Yates into the ground. I can show video that displays Eric Winston missing the block completely and then catapulting the defender into Yates...effectively "blocking the defender" into Yates. But what would it be worth? It's easier to say "We got screwed on a non-call!" or "KJ was there and affected the play!"

Let's not discuss it. No, let's say what we feel and just roll with that. LOL.
The video is subjective. Some folks think his arm was knocked away and that was enough for Julio to drop the ball or some folks think otherwise.

You DO NOT know if KJ having his arm inside was enough for JJ to lose concentration. You simply do not know that, only Julio does and he would say he should have caught that because he's likely going to be a big time WR one day.

Also yes...him getting the game ball does carry more weight. It seems most on the team thinks he's playing well.

This all comes down to those against KJ not wanting to admit he's had a good game. Instead, focus on this one play and talk around the fact that KJ just had a good game.
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Old 12-06-2011   #192
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

This thread reminds me of the "too high" scene from Major League. "Who gives a *bleep*, its gone!" Or something like that.
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Old 12-06-2011   #193
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
I don't care if Kareem was standing 2 feet from Julio Jones & screamed boo with a real mean look on his face.

Kareem was there when the pass was broken up.

Period.
Exactly. He gets kicked around all the time and now he gets a win and people wanna take that away and discredit him.

Dude gotta win. Good for him and great for us.
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Old 12-06-2011   #194
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Sheesh people. Can we just agree to agree that the Texans aren't don't have the market cornered on "Stone Hands Jones"?

We have one.

The Birds have one.

Case f'kn closed.

That is all.
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Old 12-06-2011   #195
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
I don't care if Kareem was standing 2 feet from Julio Jones & screamed boo with a real mean look on his face.

Kareem was there when the pass was broken up.

Period.
And again...no one else was even around to make the play. I wish some would see that our hail mary defense didn't look so hot the last minute of that game instead of focusing on one player.
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Old 12-06-2011   #196
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GP View Post
Answers:

1. There's nothing that says he WON'T maintain possession and that he can't out-muscle a smaller Kareem Jackson who has only ONE HAND in there against another man's two arms. That's a poor argument, 76.

2. You're right, but you can't sit there and draw red lines and think that because Julio's elbow is lower than the other one that it means KJ was pulling that arm. Look at the FREAKING video in super slow-motion (the final slow motion clip) and you'll see it. The photos also show that KJ has no grip, is NOT pulling, and quite frankly his arm stays in the exact same position while Julio's arms snap downward CHASING THE BALL because he knew he screwed up at the beginning of the catch.

3. He got the game ball? Good for him. Now he should cut it in half and give the other half to Jason Allen. FTW.
We have already disagree on how we saw things.

Let me just add this:

Both nlf.com and Stats, LLC. (which provides stats for ESPN) credited Jackson with a pass defended.
(I had provided NFL.com line in one of the previous post.)
Notice that White/JJo was not recorded.


Atl 2nd&15 Hou30 Matt Ryan incomplete pass to the right intended for Roddy White.
Atl 3rd&15 Hou30 Matt Ryan incomplete pass to the left intended for Julio Jones defensed by Kareem Jackson.
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Old 12-06-2011   #197
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Originally Posted by fiasco west View Post
The video is subjective. Some folks think his arm was knocked away and that was enough for Julio to drop the ball or some folks think otherwise.

You DO NOT know if KJ having his arm inside was enough for JJ to lose concentration. You simply do not know that, only Julio does and he would say he should have caught that because he's likely going to be a big time WR one day.

Also yes...him getting the game ball does carry more weight. It seems most on the team thinks he's playing well.

This all comes down to those against KJ not wanting to admit he's had a good game. Instead, focus on this one play and talk around the fact that KJ just had a good game.
I never said he didn't have a good game. You're reading into things and putting words in my mouth.

I'm only talking about the last play, and have ONLY talked about the last play. Period.

It's like the whole "Is God Real?" debate. I believe in God, but am told that the burden of proof rests upon ME to prove God is real. Well, Julio Jones out and out DROPPED that pass and yet I'm supposed to prove that he could have maintained possession if he HAD caught it to begin with!

Like I said: He can give half of that game ball to the his co-worker.

It was a great gesture to give him the ball. Big whoop.
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Old 12-06-2011   #198
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
We have already disagree on how we saw things.

Let me just add this:

Both nlf.com and Stats, LLC. (which provides stats for ESPN) credited Jackson with a pass defended.
(I had provided NFL.com line in one of the previous post.)
Notice that White/JJo was not recorded.


Atl 2nd&15 Hou30 Matt Ryan incomplete pass to the right intended for Roddy White.
Atl 3rd&15 Hou30 Matt Ryan incomplete pass to the left intended for Julio Jones defensed by Kareem Jackson.
The refs credited Yates with a fumble that flew 10 yards FORWARD, too, but it doesn't mean that's what happened. Next? Geez, you're having fun with stats again, huh?

You're reaching as much as KJ did, and coming up with the same thing: Nothing. But you got to post it, so it MUST be true!
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Old 12-06-2011   #199
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Originally Posted by fiasco west View Post
And again...no one else was even around to make the play. I wish some would see that our hail mary defense didn't look so hot the last minute of that game instead of focusing on one player.
Yeah! So when are we gonna end this Wade Phillips experiment?
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Old 12-06-2011   #200
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Default Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
When Julio's arms came down, the left hit KJ's, forcing the drop.
76, do you think Kj could have played that better? Is there anything Kj could have done to prevent Julio from getting his hands on the ball at all?

Quote:
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With all due respect, when you see the job I'm posting to YouTube as I type this (the video is rendering in YouTube right now) you will see that your little red lines don't do much nor prove much.
GP, do you honestly think if Kj was not there at all.... say he fell down 4 yards outside the endzone, do you honestly think Julio would have dropped that ball?

Do you think Ryan would have thrown it high to begin with? Remember the Roddy White touchdown, would you have preferred Julio to run free in the endzone like that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GP View Post
Wow. You got a bad crush, 76. It's Bieber'esque.

You're going to sit here and say that Jason Allen is getting MORE help via lots of factors, and then you throw in some sort of mathematical equation of adding up players and formations and dividing it by number of snaps???????

It's "A Beautiful Mind" time around here, I suppose.

Does anyone else see the irony here?
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