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Old 11-20-2011   #1
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Default Burge:Is Matt Schaub underappreciated?

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I've tried to stay clear of all the quarterback debates this week because they're pretty much pointless.

For better or worse, Matt Leinart is going to be the Texans starting quarterback for the rest of the season. There's nothing we can do about that.

What I've noticed during these 'debates' (and I use that term loosely) is the cavalier attitude among some fans concerning the loss of Matt Schaub.

Next man up, everyone is saying.

Not to worry, there won't be a major dropoff.

Not a biggie because Matt II has that great defense and running game that's going to bail him out.

Well not so fast.

Earlier today Lance Zierlein tweeted something that caught my eye and serves as the inspiration for this stream of consciousness.

"People who argue that Texans are better off with Leinart or that Leinart is Schaub's equal are working off of hope and no logic or facts"

I happen to agree with that notion and have been saying similar things for the past two days. My response to Lance:

"When Leinart finishes the season 4th in the league in 1st downs per pass attempt and 2XTD v. INT then I'll say they're equal"

What am I talking about? While #8 will never be considered elite, he's very good running Gary Kubiak's offense, and you can't reasonably expect or assume #11 is going to step right in and pick up where #8 left off.

There are things that I think people take for granted with Schaub. Consider:




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Old 11-20-2011   #2
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Default Re: Burge:Is Matt Schaub underappreciated?

Right now he is better, has two healthy feet.
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Old 11-20-2011   #3
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Default Re: Burge:Is Matt Schaub underappreciated?

I think it's sad the way we underappreciate Schaub, especially after the whole Rosencopter debacle.
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Old 11-20-2011   #4
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Default Re: Burge:Is Matt Schaub underappreciated?

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Continue reading on Examiner.com Is Matt Schaub underappreciated? - Houston Houston Texans | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/houston-texa...#ixzz1eGVcb4Z4
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What am I talking about? While #8 will never be considered elite, he's very good running Gary Kubiak's offense, and you can't reasonably expect or assume #11 is going to step right in and pick up where #8 left off.
This is the crux of the whole matter. Even Schaub's supporters know this to be true. They also know (& chose to ignore) that it is "easier" or "more likely" for a team to get to the Super Bowl (which is every teams' ultimate goal) with an elite QB than without.

We know Schaub is not & won't be, we're holding out hope against hope that Lienart "may" be....... at worse, he's a better version of Schaub in that he's younger, quicker on his feet, & makes plays outside of the pocket.
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Old 11-20-2011   #5
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Default Re: Burge:Is Matt Schaub underappreciated?

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I think it's sad the way we underappreciate Schaub, especially after the whole Rosencopter debacle.
Schaub is a slighty above-average quarterback playing in a brilliantly-
schemed offense. Average quarterbacks look good in this offense (Rosenfels,)
good quarterbacks look great in it (Plummer, Schaub.) Had Rosenfels protected
that 17-3 lead against the Colts, Schaub's career might look quite
different today. Rosenfels tried too much, and blew the game (and his
career) with that Rosencopter.

The Texans just need Leinart to be average, though he's probably more
talented physically than Schaub is. The team did not need Schaub
to do anything, because they have great play all over the offense and
defense.

Leinart just needs to be Trent Dilfer, and this team in 2011 will go far.

Is Schaub underappreciated? Nah. We don't need him to make big yards
against a prevent zone. We need him to hand the ball off to our RB's
and throw to our tight ends, with an occasional longball to Dre. Leinart
is more than capable of doing that in 2011.
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Old 11-20-2011   #6
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Default Re: Burge:Is Matt Schaub underappreciated?

I think that the majority of responses that Leinart is going to be fine are just people trying to stay positive and hoping for a positive outcome. That includes my own. I understand what we're looking at here and what the worst case scenario is. I just refuse to be negative. This season took almost ten weeks to put me in a good mood and I refuse to relinquish that good mood until facts demonstrate that I have to.

The argument is and has always been about the relative merits of Matt Schaub. He's got his defenders and his critics and those include people who grossly over-value him as well as those who ignore his contributions completely. Matt Leinart only enters the argument because of the circumstances. It's really about the fact that Schaub, no matter how good he is will never be a Brady/Brees/Rodgers/Manning. He's nearly elite, not elite. A sizable portion of the fan base will complain about anyone who isn't equal to one of those guys in the elite tier.
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Old 11-20-2011   #7
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Default Re: Burge:Is Matt Schaub underappreciated?

I wanted to add something. He's good. He's good enough. He could be upgraded and if you look around the league with only a handful of exceptions almost everyone takings snaps either could be upgraded or is there as a result of someone who got upgraded. No NFL team is ever "done". They add and subtract players every year. You all know this.

The thing I hear most with regard to Schaub is that he's far from the biggest issue on our team. I've always felt that way too but lately I've started to wonder.

Is the biggest issue our top ranked defense? Maybe it's our incredible running game? I know, it's our widely regarded as the best line in football offensive line. I'm being sarcastic here but the QB position isn't as far from being "fair game" for an upgrade as many of us have thought in the past. It's starting to look like we might see signs of life out of KJ and we'll get Manning back eventually. The secondary isn't in as dire need as it once was. Our WR's could use some help. That's true. We could beef up the DL. If a QB is there when we pick in the first or second round though why not look at him (assuming Leinart doesn't live up to all of our hopes)?
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Old 11-20-2011   #8
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Default Re: Burge:Is Matt Schaub underappreciated?

This offense has been making Schaub look great all year. I keep rewatching games and not seeing him do anything that any QB couldn't do, except for that excellent fake hand-off, of course. His passes are to wide open receivers, or he throws it away. On top of that, he's consistently thrown the short ones at their feet all year. I'm not saying he's never played better (because he no doubt has), but I think he's just not been healthy and we've been winning anyway. That's why I'm hoping Leinart can get it done. I'm hoping a healthy Leinart is at least as good as Schaub with his bad shoulder, etc.

My initial reaction was VERY bad though, because I was not impressed with Leinart in the preseason. Don't remember if I saw the whole preseason though.
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Old 11-20-2011   #9
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Default Re: Burge:Is Matt Schaub underappreciated?

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Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
I wanted to add something. He's good. He's good enough. He could be upgraded and if you look around the league with only a handful of exceptions almost everyone takings snaps either could be upgraded or is there as a result of someone who got upgraded. No NFL team is ever "done". They add and subtract players every year. You all know this.

The thing I hear most with regard to Schaub is that he's far from the biggest issue on our team. I've always felt that way too but lately I've started to wonder.

Is the biggest issue our top ranked defense? Maybe it's our incredible running game? I know, it's our widely regarded as the best line in football offensive line. I'm being sarcastic here but the QB position isn't as far from being "fair game" for an upgrade as many of us have thought in the past. It's starting to look like we might see signs of life out of KJ and we'll get Manning back eventually. The secondary isn't in as dire need as it once was. Our WR's could use some help. That's true. We could beef up the DL. If a QB is there when we pick in the first or second round though why not look at him (assuming Leinart doesn't live up to all of our hopes)?
Schaub has always been far from the biggest problem, but it's now looking like he and KJ are the only ones left, if he is a problem (debatable) and if KJ still is. On KJ, I suspect the problems aren't over yet at all; he's just faced less talent.
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Old 11-20-2011   #10
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Default Re: Burge:Is Matt Schaub underappreciated?

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Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
It's really about the fact that Schaub, no matter how good he is will never be a Brady/Brees/Rodgers/Manning. He's nearly elite, not elite. A sizable portion of the fan base will complain about anyone who isn't equal to one of those guys in the elite tier.
Elite QBs are born, made, created, realized, in the play-offs. Schaub hasn't had that opportunity, through no fault of his own.

We simply don't know what Schaub would do in the play-offs, right now, that part of the argument is on hold to next year......

time to move forward. We've got to hitch our wagon to Leinart, we have no choice, & like you said, it's better to be optimistic about the situation we find ourselves in than not.
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Old 11-20-2011   #11
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Default Re: Burge:Is Matt Schaub underappreciated?

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Schaub has always been far from the biggest problem, but it's now looking like he and KJ are the only ones left, if he is a problem (debatable) and if KJ still is. On KJ, I suspect the problems aren't over yet at all; he's just faced less talent.
& if our pass rush relies on the blitz, we're going to see coverage problems everywhere in the secondary once we play play-off teams.


We're going to see "secondary" problems that are really LB, underneath coverage problems.
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Old 11-20-2011   #12
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Default Re: Burge:Is Matt Schaub underappreciated?

Hypothetical Question: Leinart takes this team to the SB ala Dilfer, who starts next year?

Sure would love to have that problem going into the off-season.
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Old 11-20-2011   #13
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Default Re: Burge:Is Matt Schaub underappreciated?

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Originally Posted by HJam72 View Post
This offense has been making Schaub look great all year. I keep rewatching games and not seeing him do anything that any QB couldn't do, except for that excellent fake hand-off, of course. His passes are to wide open receivers, or he throws it away. On top of that, he's consistently thrown the short ones at their feet all year. I'm not saying he's never played better (because he no doubt has), but I think he's just not been healthy and we've been winning anyway. That's why I'm hoping Leinart can get it done. I'm hoping a healthy Leinart is at least as good as Schaub with his bad shoulder, etc.

My initial reaction was VERY bad though, because I was not impressed with Leinart in the preseason. Don't remember if I saw the whole preseason though.
My assessment of Leinart is based on the fourth preseason game. The second teamers got to start and play the whole first half. Leinart was 13 of 16 for nearly 150 yds in one half of football. He led a pretty good two minute drill starting from our 24 (at 2:06) to the Vikings' 25; only to have Rackers blow the FG.
Quote:
1st and 10 at HOU 10 - M.Leinart pass to G.Graham to HST 24 for 14 yards (K.Onatolu).
1st and 10 at HOU 24 - M.Leinart pass to G.Graham to HST 31 for 7 yards (K.Onatolu).
2nd and 8 at HOU 26 - M.Leinart pass to J.Maehl to HST 31 for 5 yards (E.Frampton).
3rd and 3 at HOU 31 - M.Leinart pass to B.Johnson to HST 37 for 6 yards (B.Burton). PENALTY on HST, Illegal Shift, 5 yards, enforced at HST 31 - No Play.
3rd and 8 at HOU 26 - M.Leinart pass to G.Graham to HST 43 for 17 yards.
1st and 10 at HOU 43 - M.Leinart pass short middle to T.Holliday to MIN 43 for 14 yards (R.Hill).
1st and 10 at MIN 43 - M.Leinart pass to J.Maehl to MIN 36 for 7 yards (D.Herron).
Timeout #1 by HST at 00:39.
2nd and 3 at MIN 36 - C.Ogbonnaya right guard to MIN 34 for 2 yards (Team).
3rd and 1 at MIN 34 - M.Leinart pass to C.Ogbonnaya to MIN 24 for 10 yards (K.Onatolu).
Timeout #2 by HST at 00:10.
1st and 10 at MIN 24 - N.Rackers 42 yard field goal is No Good, Hit Left Upright, Center-S.Albritton, Holder-B.Maynard.
Leinart was 6 for 6 on that drive and overcame a penalty to keep the drive moving.

I know, I know... it was PREseason. But it's the most recent "data" we have. I believe this more than I believe 5 year old data from AZ in a totally different offense. All that to say, I like his chances with our weapons, in this offense.
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Old 11-20-2011   #14
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Default Re: Burge:Is Matt Schaub underappreciated?

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Hypothetical Question: Leinart takes this team to the SB ala Dilfer, who starts next year?

Sure would love to have that problem going into the off-season.

That's not a problem at all. If he looks like Dilfer, we find someone to give us picks for him.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind (or anyone elses I can think of) that Schaub can't put up Dilfer type games. We're looking for someone to give us a little more.

If Leinart can not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is better than Schaub, it's time to let him go & keep looking.

It's simple. He's either better than Schaub or he's not. If Schaub wasn't hurt, we wouldn't be asking. But Schaub is hurt, it's time for Leinart to make his case.
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Old 11-20-2011   #15
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Default Re: Burge:Is Matt Schaub underappreciated?

if leinart starts off and goes 0-3 and we are 7-6 i want to reread this thread, i think it is funny, Matt Schaub is obviously under appreciated. Sure he hasnt been asked to do much, but there will come a game when the QB is going to have to rally this team, i just hope its not in a win or go home game. If it is than i feel that Schaub will gain many more supporters.

Momma always said the grass may look greener on the other side of the fence, but once you cross the fence it usually looks like shit. And you feel pretty dumb
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Old 11-20-2011   #16
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Default Re: Burge:Is Matt Schaub underappreciated?

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if leinart starts off and goes 0-3 and we are 7-6 i want to reread this thread, i think it is funny, Matt Schaub is obviously under appreciated. Sure he hasnt been asked to do much, but there will come a game when the QB is going to have to rally this team, i just hope its not in a win or go home game. If it is than i feel that Schaub will gain many more supporters.

Momma always said the grass may look greener on the other side of the fence, but once you cross the fence it usually looks like shit. And you feel pretty dumb
Well, you go on holding onto Matt Schaub as the best thing since sliced bread.

It ain't going to help you or the Texans over the next 13 weeks.

We're going to hope against hope, that Leinart can be more than he's shown to be to date...

Funny how that coincides with the Texans going where we want them to go.
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Old 11-20-2011   #17
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Default Re: Burge:Is Matt Schaub underappreciated?

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Well, you go on holding onto Matt Schaub as the best thing since sliced bread.
It ain't going to help you or the Texans over the next 13 weeks.

We're going to hope against hope, that Leinart can be more than he's shown to be to date...

Funny how that coincides with the Texans going where we want them to go.
i by no means think that Schaub is an above elite QB, but i do feel that Matt Leinart is a less than average QB. Just funny to me how some think that Leinart will come in and do better than Schaub, i hope they are right, but i fear that is very very unlikely
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Old 11-20-2011   #18
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Default Re: Burge:Is Matt Schaub underappreciated?

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Originally Posted by EllisUnit View Post
i by no means think that Schaub is an above elite QB, but i do feel that Matt Leinart is a less than average QB. Just funny to me how some think that Leinart will come in and do better than Schaub, i hope they are right, but i fear that is very very unlikely
None of the arguments for Leinart are based on any amazing ability he has shown in the NFL so far. It's all about hope... why people can't see that, I don't know.

Whether it's Leinart under center, or Schaub. for us to get to the Super Bowl, we have to get better play from the QB than what we've seen so far.... this season.

2009 Matt Schaub would be perfect. 2010 Matt Schaub would be great. 2011 Matt Schaub... there's plenty of room for improvement.

Just about everyone who has argued for Leinart has said they'd be extremely worried if Schaub had been playing like he had in 2009 or 2010 & then this happened. 2011, he's been relegated back to game manager.
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Old 11-20-2011   #19
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Default Re: Burge:Is Matt Schaub underappreciated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
None of the arguments for Leinart are based on any amazing ability he has shown in the NFL so far. It's all about hope... why people can't see that, I don't know.

Whether it's Leinart under center, or Schaub. for us to get to the Super Bowl, we have to get better play from the QB than what we've seen so far.... this season.

2009 Matt Schaub would be perfect. 2010 Matt Schaub would be great. 2011 Matt Schaub... there's plenty of room for improvement.
Just about everyone who has argued for Leinart has said they'd be extremely worried if Schaub had been playing like he had in 2009 or 2010 & then this happened. 2011, he's been relegated back to game manager.
Dude in 2009 we had no running game, in 2010 we had no defense. I take 2011 matt schaub any day of the week. Cause that means we have a running game and a good defense.
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Old 11-20-2011   #20
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Default Re: Burge:Is Matt Schaub underappreciated?

NFL Inside the Numbers

Folks at stats looked at most clutch QBs. Schaub comes in at 5th this year. FWIW.

Interestingly same link says Texans D is by far the best in the league against the play action pass. /no surprise given who they've practiced against.

Bengals worst against play action. File that away in your brain pan.
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