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Old 11-22-2011   #161
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
If you watch closely, there are times when our OLBs (SAM and/or WILL) simply jump into the backfield after their get-off.

They pay no attention to any lineman or TE on the LOS.
No offense my man, but I'll take the word of someone who's played in the defense before over someone who's a film junkie. Not discounting your credibility at all though.
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Old 11-22-2011   #162
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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No offense my man, but I'll take the word of someone who's played in the defense before over someone who's a film junkie. Not discounting your credibility at all though.
Don't forget that I only said "some times", not most of the times.

Also, don't forget that I also said the playbook mostly have the LBs with their keys (an O-lineman, a TE, etc.)

All I'm saying that there are times when a certain D-lineman or LB simply key on the ball.

In fact, in the SAM & WILL JET front, the defense aims to attack (blitz or run blitz).
All five guys on the line KEY on the BALL.
Only the ILBs (the MIKE and the MO) key through the Guard to the Near Back and then the BALL.
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Old 11-22-2011   #163
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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Don't forget that I only said "some times", not most of the times.

Also, don't forget that I also said the playbook mostly have the LBs with their keys (an O-lineman, a TE, etc.)

All I'm saying that there are times when a certain D-lineman or LB simply key on the ball.

In fact, in the SAM & WILL JET front, the defense aims to attack (blitz or run blitz).
All five guys on the line KEY on the BALL.
Only the ILBs (the MIKE and the MO) key through the Guard to the Near Back and then the BALL.
You missed where I pointed out "base" defense. There is NEVER a situation in a "base" defense 4-3 or 3-4 when the initial run/pass read isn't on an OL/Tight End/H-Back. You sound like u know quite a bit about football so I respect your opinion, but this is a situation where you're wrong.
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Old 11-23-2011   #164
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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You missed where I pointed out "base" defense. There is NEVER a situation in a "base" defense 4-3 or 3-4 when the initial run/pass read isn't on an OL/Tight End/H-Back. You sound like u know quite a bit about football so I respect your opinion, but this is a situation where you're wrong.
Base defense:



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Old 11-23-2011   #165
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

Another base defense:




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Old 11-23-2011   #166
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Another base defense:




I think I gave you a little too much credit....... Look up the term base defense. I understand running slants and stunts there will be different assignments. In a "base" defense there will never be a key on the ball from a Linebacker. Verified this with more than one person now.
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Old 11-23-2011   #167
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

It's football; there are no bases to defend.
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Old 11-23-2011   #168
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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It's football; there are no bases to defend.
4 bases in baseball, 4 quarters in football. That can't be just a coincidence.
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Old 11-23-2011   #169
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

1st Qtr. Defense

2nd Qtr. Defense

3rd Qtr. Defense

4th Qtr. Defense

Sounds like just the kind of crap Wade would use....and it would work.
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Old 11-23-2011   #170
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
I think I gave you a little too much credit....... Look up the term base defense. I understand running slants and stunts there will be different assignments. In a "base" defense there will never be a key on the ball from a Linebacker. Verified this with more than one person now.
I think the point was that LBs "do" key on the ball sometimes... a little mix up with terminology (base defense) wasn't the point... his main point was that in the 2003 Falcon defense, there were Lbs keying off of the ball... you said it wasn't accurate, he scanned the damn pages... it's done...

Base defense/treble defense/national defense, doesn't matter... that was not the point...
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Old 11-23-2011   #171
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
I think I gave you a little too much credit....... Look up the term base defense. I understand running slants and stunts there will be different assignments. In a "base" defense there will never be a key on the ball from a Linebacker. Verified this with more than one person now.
You might want to verify with some guys who played for the Falcons in 03.

All I know is that in their playboook, there were only a handfull of base defense (showing against the pro set - which I was showing). With each, there were a number of complimentary stunts and blitzes.

As far as LB read in general; I don't know about the claim that "all LBs have to key off an O-lineman", but here's some coaches who disagree with you:

http://coachhuey.com/index.cgi?board...d=39126&page=1

The reason we read the Backfield is...because that's all I've done.
How about that circular logic. I will read the backfield the rest of my life because...that's what I want to do.

My reasoning has less to do with theory and more to do with human nature. In the 4th quarter when everybody's bleeding and nobody can catch their breath, those Linebackers will be looking into the Backfield.
Not much logic there, just how I feel about it.

I was trained by, "look at the FB, he will take you to the play" out of the 50.

.....
We read guards for 4 years, because it's what our head coach wanted, and I always had problems with the LB's sitting and hopping, or blown reads due to sloppy line play.

Last year, under a new head coach, I had the opportunity to teach reading backfield flow. Our LB play improved dramatically. All the guys played with much better aggression and confidence.

.....

We have done both read guards and and read OL. As a player I was taught to read OL so it is what I knew so it is what I taught. This year I replaced our old LB coach with a buddy of mine who played at a different University. He was taught to read the backs, so instead of telling him to teach something he didn't know I said go with what you know. I was skeptical because well I had limited experience with reading the RB's

The result this year was I learned a lot & reading the RB's was awesome for us.

....


You see that even in HS, coaches have different opinions about LB keys.

This one probably sums it up best:

"Back keys

When Linebackers key running backs their reactions are usually clear and unsophisticated. The beauty of running back keys is their simplicity with double-gap responsible linebackers who fast flow. Back keys are really tempting. Back keys are confidence builders for inexperienced players and coaches. The rules that players usually learn are the following:

* When my keys comes to me, I attack my frontside gap
* When my key goes away, I attack my backside gap.
* When my key shows pass block or pass route, I drop into my coverage rule.

Back keys lend themselves to aggressive, attacking, two-gap players."

Lineman Keys

"Keying a lineman is more complex. Rather then having three basic running-back paths, a linebacker may have to react to five to eight courses. So why consider it? Lineman rarely lie. They are the truest keys.
With play-action pass, a running back lies. He fakes a run, and those who key him loose movement to the receivers. Usually line-men show pass protection.
When defending the winged-T offense, linebacker coaches often must compromise their back keys or decide to be unsound against the offense's weakest or least frequently used plays because of the misdirection in this offense. The counter play is popular in nearly all offensive attacks today.

When the linebackers correctly read the players on the line of scrimmage, they will react immediately to without any false steps. Linemen are more difficult to read but more truthful.
Another advantage in focusing on lineman is that linebackers can more readily recognize tips from their stances that will alert them to particular plays.
When focused on a back key, an unsuspecting linebacker will often contact a lineman. This can lead to a poor hit-and-shed base."

Triangle keys

"In an attempt to combine the two keys previously described, many coaches teach keying a triangle of backs, lineman, and the ball. It gives the player the potential fast flow of a back read with the caution of a pulling lineman who says "not so fast" on misdirection plays.

Personally, I believe having a prime key is critical. The linebacker needs a key he can depend on no matter what offense is being employed against him. The triangular system is sound but requires exceptional coaching ability. It also opens the door for a linebacker to guess because he is uncertain about the clarity of multiple keys.
Back reads are very clean although they can be deceiving with play-action passes and counters. Pure line reads are truest but take tremendous discipline and require time to learn. The triangle keys attempt to mesh the two, but at some point one key must take priority over the other or the linebacker cannot move with confidence."
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Old 11-23-2011   #172
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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Originally Posted by drunkcookie View Post
I think the point was that LBs "do" key on the ball sometimes... a little mix up with terminology (base defense) wasn't the point... his main point was that in the 2003 Falcon defense, there were Lbs keying off of the ball... you said it wasn't accurate, he scanned the damn pages... it's done...

Base defense/treble defense/national defense, doesn't matter... that was not the point...
Thank you!
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Old 11-23-2011   #173
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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I would say that a lot of the stuff he showed in the Saints game is what gave me this general opinion. He only tried a few deep throws (Which were a little off) and the short stuff wasn't really that impressive to me. He did look better against the 9'ers, and respectable enough vs the Vikings, but that Saints game bugged me about him.

I will say that I feel way better about Leinart being here as the next backup than Rex Grossman or Dan Orlovsky.
I've finished taking all the screenshot of the 18 pass attempts by Leinart in this game. (There was also another attempt that was not recorded as the CB was called for holding.)

I don't have time to disect the plays until maybe tomorrow or Friday, so for now, just let me post the link to the photo album:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/...%202%20Saints/
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Old 11-23-2011   #174
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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I don't think the still shots do a good job of showing the play fake (even though it does for me.)
Garrard never extended his arm the way Schaub did.
He half-cocked the ball and pulled it back.

In slow motion, you can see that Diles, as the WILL, was looking into the backfield (at the QB/RB) all the way.

We know that the Texans were in zone the way Dunta lined up and how the defense never reacted to the motion of the receiver.
Diles wasn't manning up on anybody.

Due to the flow of the O-line, Diles had a clear view of the backfield.
Combination of the two. BOTH Garrard AND MJD did a piss poor job of selling the play fake. I wouldn't had bit either.
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Old 11-23-2011   #175
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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Originally Posted by drunkcookie View Post
I think the point was that LBs "do" key on the ball sometimes... a little mix up with terminology (base defense) wasn't the point... his main point was that in the 2003 Falcon defense, there were Lbs keying off of the ball... you said it wasn't accurate, he scanned the damn pages... it's done...

Base defense/treble defense/national defense, doesn't matter... that was not the point...

Good point...... I should have clarified what I consider a base defense. I apologize 76Texan for not clearing that up initially. I'll just leave it at that. Like I said I respect your football knowledge, but apparently this is one of the situations where we're not going to agree. A base defense for most people who've played linebacker is pretty cut and dry from everyone I've asked. But if you think differently then I understand and respect it.
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Old 11-23-2011   #176
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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Combination of the two. BOTH Garrard AND MJD did a piss poor job of selling the play fake. I wouldn't had bit either.
Yeape!

Also, the play action shows you that simply keying on an O-lineman might not be a good idea.

I talked about how the LT pulled outside the TE (the TE then released).

If the SS (Bushing) and the SCB (Dunta) key on the LT (and only the LT), they would have been fooled, thinking that this is an outside zone run (strectch play).

The TE would have been wide open if both these two guys came up to defend the run.
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Old 11-23-2011   #177
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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Good point...... I should have clarified what I consider a base defense. I apologize 76Texan for not clearing that up initially. I'll just leave it at that. Like I said I respect your football knowledge, but apparently this is one of the situations where we're not going to agree. A base defense for most people who've played linebacker is pretty cut and dry from everyone I've asked. But if you think differently then I understand and respect it.
No biggie.
I enjoy talking football.
Rey and Vinny had several "run-ins" with me; we enjoyed the "arguments" nonetheless!
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Old 11-23-2011   #178
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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No biggie.
I enjoy talking football.
Rey and Vinny had several "run-ins" with me; we enjoyed the "arguments" nonetheless!
I enjoy it too man trust me...... I "argue" with friends all the time about football. It's what makes sports fun. You can debate just about anything and make it a good time. And most of the time my friends think I'm a fool for thinking the things I do. Outside the box thinker all of my life.
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Old 11-23-2011   #179
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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"look at the FB, he will knock your butt out"
Just wanted to fix that part.
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Old 11-23-2011   #180
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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Good point...... I should have clarified what I consider a base defense. I apologize 76Texan for not clearing that up initially. I'll just leave it at that. Like I said I respect your football knowledge, but apparently this is one of the situations where we're not going to agree. A base defense for most people who've played linebacker is pretty cut and dry from everyone I've asked. But if you think differently then I understand and respect it.
What do you consider a base defense?
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