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Old 11-17-2011   #121
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Rey, I understand where you're coming from.
The ZBs helps a little, but as teams now all know about it, they should be well prepared for it.
ALL TEAMS run some ZBS anyway.

I think it's best for you to take a step back and look at things.

1. I have heard many commentators saying Matt Schaub does a good job selling the play fake in different games.

2. When I talked about Gabbert is simply terrible at it, there's a reason.
The QB is very important in selling the play fake.

3. To start off, you can go back and watched the first play against the Bucs when Schaub went yards to JJ.

Then you can watch the Jags game, 2nd quarter, around the 11:30 min mark.
You will see the difference bettween Schaub and Gabbert.
(there are other plays from Gabbert, but I got to run now.)

Look at how Schaub extended his arm pretending to put the ball into the RB's gut while Gabbert only had his arm cocking and half-heartedly failed at a faked hand-off. The LB saw this too clearly and dropped back. This in turn helped the deep safety.

On the other hand, Talib and the safety took a peek into the backfield and both froze when Schaub extended his arm and Foster faked an acceptance of the hand-off.
I don't get this debate. You cannot separate the effectiveness of the QB's fake from the defense's fear of your running game. If you have a weak running attack that the D thinks it can stop without putting 7-8 men in the box OR they know you run a pass-happy offense then they won't respect the fake. The safeties and LBs will think pass first and look to cover if they know your O is pass happy or they know their front 5-6 can handle your running attack without their help.

On the other hand, if you have a superior running game like we do or like SF does with Frank Gore, then the defense is going to be more worried about stopping the RB so the LBs and safeties are more likely to peek into the backfield before picking up their coverage assignments. That one-second hesitation from the safety either results in one-on-one coverage to a wideout or a TE having a step on said safety.

Another thing that I didn't see touched on is the RB's responsibility in carrying out his fake. If he goes into the line practically standing up, then that tells the defense pass right away. If he goes into the hole hard, then that sells the play-action completely; LBs and safeties bite which results in favorable situations for the offense.

Bottom line: The more effective your running attack is, the more the D has to respect it and the more effective a play fake from the QB will be. And the RB has to execute his fake convincingly too.
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Old 11-18-2011   #122
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

I will say this..... I think most of the people debating here are right and wrong. Linebackers are taught to read their keys, and the initial key is the Offensive line. Depending on what coverage they are in they will then go to the RB/QB. If the lineman they're keying off of gives a run read (which is done by reading the first step of the lineman) then they will flow to wherever the defense dictates they be on that play lane wise and come up to support keeping their eyes on the ball, basically the QB. Once they see pass then they'll either drop in their zone, or get to their man. Its important to give a good run look all around. QB, Line, RB's, and WR's depending on the play or route they're running.

Play design does have a lot to do with getting guys open as well as the QB selling the fake properly. With us doing a lot of play action off of stretch runs, then a lot of those plays look exactly like runs initially up front. Matt does a good job of extending the ball out and selling it, but trust me in this offense it is not hard to do. Leinart is a vet and this is one thing he will do effectively in this offense. This is maybe the only thing I'm 100 percent sure of.

To pretty much sum it up I think most of you guys are right in what you're saying
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Old 11-18-2011   #123
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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I will say this..... I think most of the people debating here are right and wrong.
This is like being the Switzerland of a message board.
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Old 11-18-2011   #124
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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This is like being the Switzerland of a message board.
Haha, I can be diplomatic at times.
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Old 11-18-2011   #125
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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You cannot separate the effectiveness of the QB's fake from the defense's fear of your running game.
I disagree.

Schaub and this offense have been very, very good at selling the PA fake even when our running game was shite.

A good chunk of that is our offensive line doing the zone thing and a part of that is Schaub's mad ball handling skillz... and also that Schaub completes his roll-out even on the regular run. One of my big gripes with HWWNBN was that on real running plays, he'd hand off... and then stop and follow along behind the running back like he was trying to recover a fumble instead of selling the roll-out. Schaub is good and consistent with his moves. Heck, he'll even go through the roll-out move when he pitches the ball out.
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Old 11-18-2011   #126
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
I will say this..... I think most of the people debating here are right and wrong. Linebackers are taught to read their keys, and the initial key is the Offensive line. Depending on what coverage they are in they will then go to the RB/QB. If the lineman they're keying off of gives a run read (which is done by reading the first step of the lineman) then they will flow to wherever the defense dictates they be on that play lane wise and come up to support keeping their eyes on the ball, basically the QB. Once they see pass then they'll either drop in their zone, or get to their man. Its important to give a good run look all around. QB, Line, RB's, and WR's depending on the play or route they're running.
Different defenses will have different keys for each LB, depending on the defensive front called against a certain offensive formation.

In Wade's 34, one of the base front is called the SAM & WILL TONTO against a standard pro set (2 RBs on each side and behind the QB).
Against this offensive formation, the Guards were uncovered so the MIKE and MO key on the Near Guard and the Near Back.
The SAM is head up on the TE and naturally keys on the TE to the near Back.
The WILL lines up as an 8-tech (about 2 yards outside the weak side OT); he has no O-lineman on him so he keys the BALL to the Near Back and the TRIANGLE (the QB, the Near Guard, and the Near Back).

Against the same pro set, a different defensive front called the SAM & WILL JET finds the LBs with different keys:
Both the MIKE & MO key through the Guard to the Near Back to the Ball.
Both the SAM & the WILL strickly key on the BALL.
In this defensive front, the front 7 are basically in the same position as the TONTO front, but they have different assignments (attacking different gaps).
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Old 11-18-2011   #127
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
I disagree.

Schaub and this offense have been very, very good at selling the PA fake even when our running game was shite.

A good chunk of that is our offensive line doing the zone thing and a part of that is Schaub's mad ball handling skillz... and also that Schaub completes his roll-out even on the regular run. One of my big gripes with HWWNBN was that on real running plays, he'd hand off... and then stop and follow along behind the running back like he was trying to recover a fumble instead of selling the roll-out. Schaub is good and consistent with his moves. Heck, he'll even go through the roll-out move when he pitches the ball out.
^^^ This!
Selling is done continuously whether it was a run or a pass to make the PA game more effective.
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Old 11-18-2011   #128
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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Originally Posted by TexanFan881 View Post
My post isn't all directed towards you. And I'm not trying to start something, just my opinion. But you stated after most of your evaluation that Leinart was as good as or better than Schaub in each category. I do not see much criticism at all regarding your evaluation. From reading your posts, its hard not to become a homer.
No, I didn't give Leinart higher grade than Schaub on a few areas:
1. It looks like Schaub has a little more arm strength.
2. Leinart is not quite as accurate on the deep out from what I've seen so far.
(the sample size is not quite large enough to be sure of this though.)
3. We have yet to see Leinart perform well under pressure in games that count.
4. Schaub is still more consistent on the play fake (again, the sample size is still not large enough.)

The only thing that I give Leinart over Schaub is mobility.
And the quick slant, but not by much.
I can't compare their decision makings because, again, we haven't seen Leinart in a game that counts.
(I don't want to rely on memory to judge Leinart's rookie year.)
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Old 11-18-2011   #129
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
I disagree.

Schaub and this offense have been very, very good at selling the PA fake even when our running game was shite.

A good chunk of that is our offensive line doing the zone thing and a part of that is Schaub's mad ball handling skillz... and also that Schaub completes his roll-out even on the regular run. One of my big gripes with HWWNBN was that on real running plays, he'd hand off... and then stop and follow along behind the running back like he was trying to recover a fumble instead of selling the roll-out. Schaub is good and consistent with his moves. Heck, he'll even go through the roll-out move when he pitches the ball out.
First, you have to go back three or more years to find a time when our running attack was suspect. This year and last year, Foster was and is feared. The year before, Slaton was somewhat feared - or at least respected - because of the 1000-yd season he had in 08. So you'd have to go back clear to '07 - Schaub's first year here as you well know - to find a time when "when our running game was shite". And even in '07, Ron Dayne lumbered for nearly 773 yds rushing. That's enough of a threat to keep teams honest. All that to say, since Schaub's been here, the threat of a successful running play was there. Defenses had to respect it.

Second, I'm not trying to imply in any way, shape, form, or fashion that Schaub isn't good at the play fake. Hell, that's our bread & butter. Every talking head that actually watches us play has said we are the best in the NFL at play action. That starts with Schaub.

All I'm saying is the diversion works best when everyone, from Schaub to the O-line to the RB plays their individual roles so convincingly that our running plays look EXACTLY like our play action pass plays. That, IMHO, is the beauty of this offense. It costs the defense a half a second (or more) to figure out if Foster/Tate/Ward actually has the ball or if Schaub kept it. And that's enough for one of our guys to get open and for Schaub to find him.

I think our difference of opinion lies in the fact that I believe all players have to sell the fake and some of you think it's all about Schaub.
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Old 11-18-2011   #130
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

Obsi, I'm not sure anybody here says that it's all about Schaub (or Leinart) in the PA game.

Personally, I always think that you need 11 players doing their job on each single play to make it successful.
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Old 11-18-2011   #131
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^^^ This!
Selling is done continuously whether it was a run or a pass to make the PA game more effective.
My point is that it starts with the oline and the actual threat of getting gashed.

How well the qb executes his fakes is secondary IMO.

I do not believe it's equal. Both are important and if one fails then the play could fail, bit if the oline does a poor job of selling, it doesn't matter how good the qb executes his fake. Conversely I don't believe that a great fake by the qb makes or breaks the play most times.

It starts with the oline and rb's. I would put jmo, but in this offense it's pretty much a fact.
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Old 11-18-2011   #132
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Personally, I always think that you need 11 players doing their job on each single play to make it successful.
Players make mistakes all the time. But if you have enough talent and you scheme well it can be overcome.

Plays are successful all the time when one or more players fails to do their part.
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Old 11-18-2011   #133
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

I don't believe it's all about Schaub. And I don't believe that Schaub has nothing to do with it.

Our QB has to sell it. Our RB has to sell it. Our OL has to sell it. And our TEs have to sell it.

Even when our running game was not a serious threat, people were still buying our playaction because everyone was selling it.

Now that our running game IS a serious threat, that just makes it that much more effective because now opponents have to sell out to try to stop the run.
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Old 11-18-2011   #134
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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I don't believe it's all about Schaub. And I don't believe that Schaub has nothing to do with it.

Our QB has to sell it. Our RB has to sell it. Our OL has to sell it. And our TEs have to sell it.

Even when our running game was not a serious threat, people were still buying our playaction because everyone was selling it.

Now that our running game IS a serious threat, that just makes it that much more effective because now opponents have to sell out to try to stop the run.
An effective play-action fake has to look convincing at all levels. If an O-lineman, say, overcommits to his drive block knowing the PA is going to the backside, a savvy defensive lineman might be able to 'feel' that something is amiss and will maintain his gap. If the QB doesn't authentically commit to the handoff before taking it back (with both ball placement and footwork), a trailing safety, DE, or linebacker might 'feel' that something is amiss and keep the backside contain and blow up the play. The WR's & TE's similarly need to avoid "tells" in their blocking and route-running that would draw an extra safety or linebacker into coverage.
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Old 11-18-2011   #135
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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An effective play-action fake has to look convincing at all levels. If an O-lineman, say, overcommits to his drive block knowing the PA is going to the backside, a savvy defensive lineman might be able to 'feel' that something is amiss and will maintain his gap. If the QB doesn't authentically commit to the handoff before taking it back (with both ball placement and footwork), a trailing safety, DE, or linebacker might 'feel' that something is amiss and keep the backside contain and blow up the play. The WR's & TE's similarly need to avoid "tells" in their blocking and route-running that would draw an extra safety or linebacker into coverage.
On your regular play action play, the OL drops back into pass protection mode. The only thing that sells the play action here, is the fake by the QB & RB. The QB drops straight back, then turns to throw the ball.

On our PA Bootlegs, the OL acts as if they are running the zone stretch..... it's this movement by the OL that gets the entire Defense to bite, allows the QB to move, then reset with plenty of time to throw & allows for the secondary to forget about the receiver. The receivers can also fake a block, the DBs will avoid the block to get to the running back, leaving the receiver WTF open.
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Old 11-18-2011   #136
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

That's what the opposing DC's call it: WTF?
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Old 11-18-2011   #137
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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No you really don't understand what you are talking about because the defense will key off of what the QB is doing first and foremost since he is the guy with the ball. These other things are somewhat important (Which you seem to think that in a play action situation ONLY the line play or what the RB does matters, which is flat out wrong, wrong wrong), but if the QB is going to keep the ball he has to fool the DL, and the LB's because they will immediately drop trying to stop the run action and go for the QB if they even think that he has the ball, and they will more than likely have a free shot on him since nobody will be blocking. The DB's will also know whats going on and will keep their coverages tight on the receiving threats if they think it's the QB and not the RB who has the ball.

The QB can easily alert the defensive players that it was a fake by not attempting to hide the ball after he pulls it back, by turning and squaring up like he's going to throw too early, or even just by how he turns his body after the "hand-off". All of these things can bust up a PA (Doesn't matter if it's a stretch, or naked boot, or any of that stuff) and if the QB is bad at selling it, you're going to see the play get busted more often.

Look, I know it hurts your feelings when somebody says that Schaub as good (Which that would be the first time *I* have even mentioned Schaub in talking about play-action fakes in this thread) and you want to tear him down and make him "mediocre" in your mind, but you're using a lot of bad reasoning and faulty logic trying to persuade people into thinking that the QB has almost no bearing at all on how successful his offense runs the playaction. And with this post, I am saying you are flat out wrong. Has nothing to do with me liking or disliking Schaub as a QB, you are just straight up wrong and are blabbering at the mouth. The QB has quite a bit of responsibility in "selling" the hand-off to the opposing defense, as much or even moreso than the offensive line and running back.
I just want to get in and out real fast. In terms of of playaction and things, if the running backs are a threat, the backers can't retreat into coverage until the backs clears the qb. The way foster and tate are running the ball, the pause creates the gap between the backers and dbs. Look at schaubs ypa before the running game became forceful.
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Old 11-18-2011   #138
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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Different defenses will have different keys for each LB, depending on the defensive front called against a certain offensive formation.

In Wade's 34, one of the base front is called the SAM & WILL TONTO against a standard pro set (2 RBs on each side and behind the QB).
Against this offensive formation, the Guards were uncovered so the MIKE and MO key on the Near Guard and the Near Back.
The SAM is head up on the TE and naturally keys on the TE to the near Back.
The WILL lines up as an 8-tech (about 2 yards outside the weak side OT); he has no O-lineman on him so he keys the BALL to the Near Back and the TRIANGLE (the QB, the Near Guard, and the Near Back).

Against the same pro set, a different defensive front called the SAM & WILL JET finds the LBs with different keys:
Both the MIKE & MO key through the Guard to the Near Back to the Ball.
Both the SAM & the WILL strickly key on the BALL.
In this defensive front, the front 7 are basically in the same position as the TONTO front, but they have different assignments (attacking different gaps).

I just spoke with a guy who played Linebacker at San Francisco for Manusky who pretty much ran the same system as Wade. He said that what you said isn't completely accurate, but I'll try to get with him to explain exactly what isn't. Can't say I'm the biggest Linebacker genius, so I'll leave that to him. I'll try to get him to post tomorrow.
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Old 11-19-2011   #139
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
I just spoke with a guy who played Linebacker at San Francisco for Manusky who pretty much ran the same system as Wade. He said that what you said isn't completely accurate, but I'll try to get with him to explain exactly what isn't. Can't say I'm the biggest Linebacker genius, so I'll leave that to him. I'll try to get him to post tomorrow.
It's straight out of the playbook (Falcons 2003).

In different fronts the defenders could have different keys.
Against different offensive formations, the defenders could also have different keys.

Manusky was LB coach when Wade was with the Chargers; he should be familiar with the system.

For all we know, they might change their teaching a little here and there over the years.
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

Here's the Jags running the PA pass in the first game against us in 09.

The whole sequence can be found here:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/...SBZ%20stretch/




Jags were in straight I, TE on the left, both receivers on the right.


Initially, the showed a possible counter run with the FB going against the O-line flow.
Notice that the Jags faked a ZBS stretch run with the O-line going left, as well as the RB.

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