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Old 11-17-2011   #101
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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No the QB does have to be good at hiding the ball and selling the fake because LB's and DB's can see what is going on in the backfield around and through the O-line and they can tell when a QB is already looking downfield to throw or is holding the ball up to throw too early after the supposed fake.

Having a QB who can sell the fake is just as important, if not moreso, than what the RB does and what the O-line does in a PA situation.
Exactly. And the defensive lineman who get through the line will see where the ball is, and if they don't bite there will be no option for a bootleg and could very easily result in a sack.
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Old 11-17-2011   #102
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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No the QB does have to be good at hiding the ball and selling the fake because LB's and DB's can see what is going on in the backfield around and through the O-line and they can tell when a QB is already looking downfield to throw or is holding the ball up to throw too early after the supposed fake.

Having a QB who can sell the fake is just as important, if not moreso, than what the RB does and what the O-line does in a PA situation.
I disagree whole heartedly.

Our biggest plays come when we play fake off of the stretch. We get the defense flowing.

You don't know what you are talking about either because when the QB goes to hand the ball off DB's and LB's cannot see his eyes becaue his head is turned as he goes back to fake the handoff.

Look, I'm not saying that he can just go back there and bullshit and not even act like he is handing the ball off, but in this offense the playfake is in the design of the plays.

What makes it even more successful is the actual threat that he could hand it off to a great running attack.

And you are also wrong about LB's and D-lineman being able to see the ball...Sure they can see it at times, but they cannot just "look through the line" and see the ball...

Yeah right.

I understand you guys love Schaub, but to say that he is even equally as important in getting D-lineman, and LB's to bite on the run is incorrect.
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Old 11-17-2011   #103
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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People are saying the Leinart only has to be a game manager. I believe that couldn't be farther from the truth.
Obviously the guy is going to have to make some reads, get the ball out on time, and make a few plays. We will not, however, be expecting him to go out there and be dodging would-be tacklers and spinning balls into tight spots. If they stack the box then we likely have AJ and/or OD in single coverage. Pick the open one and get the ball to him. We have enough playmakers that we don't NEED to have our QB making great plays all game.
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Old 11-17-2011   #104
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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Exactly. And the defensive lineman who get through the line will see where the ball is, and if they don't bite there will be no option for a bootleg and could very easily result in a sack.
Leinart is capable of throwing the ball away. One easy-peasy thing about the boot is that you are already outside the tackle box most of the time, so all you have to do is get it (the throwaway) past the los if you get instant pressure or you have tight coverage.
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Old 11-17-2011   #105
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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I disagree whole heartedly.

Our biggest plays come when we play fake off of the stretch. We get the defense flowing.

You don't know what you are talking about either because when the QB goes to hand the ball off DB's and LB's cannot see his eyes becaue his head is turned as he goes back to fake the handoff.

Look, I'm not saying that he can just go back there and bullshit and not even act like he is handing the ball off, but in this offense the playfake is in the design of the plays.

What makes it even more successful is the actual threat that he could hand it off to a great running attack.

And you are also wrong about LB's and D-lineman being able to see the ball...Sure they can see it at times, but they cannot just "look through the line" and see the ball...

Yeah right.

I understand you guys love Schaub, but to say that he is even equally as important in getting D-lineman, and LB's to bite on the run is incorrect.
No you really don't understand what you are talking about because the defense will key off of what the QB is doing first and foremost since he is the guy with the ball. These other things are somewhat important (Which you seem to think that in a play action situation ONLY the line play or what the RB does matters, which is flat out wrong, wrong wrong), but if the QB is going to keep the ball he has to fool the DL, and the LB's because they will immediately drop trying to stop the run action and go for the QB if they even think that he has the ball, and they will more than likely have a free shot on him since nobody will be blocking. The DB's will also know whats going on and will keep their coverages tight on the receiving threats if they think it's the QB and not the RB who has the ball.

The QB can easily alert the defensive players that it was a fake by not attempting to hide the ball after he pulls it back, by turning and squaring up like he's going to throw too early, or even just by how he turns his body after the "hand-off". All of these things can bust up a PA (Doesn't matter if it's a stretch, or naked boot, or any of that stuff) and if the QB is bad at selling it, you're going to see the play get busted more often.

Look, I know it hurts your feelings when somebody says that Schaub as good (Which that would be the first time *I* have even mentioned Schaub in talking about play-action fakes in this thread) and you want to tear him down and make him "mediocre" in your mind, but you're using a lot of bad reasoning and faulty logic trying to persuade people into thinking that the QB has almost no bearing at all on how successful his offense runs the playaction. And with this post, I am saying you are flat out wrong. Has nothing to do with me liking or disliking Schaub as a QB, you are just straight up wrong and are blabbering at the mouth. The QB has quite a bit of responsibility in "selling" the hand-off to the opposing defense, as much or even moreso than the offensive line and running back.
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Old 11-17-2011   #106
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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Leinart is capable of throwing the ball away. One easy-peasy thing about the boot is that you are already outside the tackle box most of the time, so all you have to do is get it (the throwaway) past the los if you get instant pressure or you have tight coverage.
I get that...but at the same time aren't we talking about a successful play action pass? I would consider an incomplete pass unsuccessful...
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Old 11-17-2011   #107
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

Schaub has one of the best play fakes in the league. This isn't a debatable point, so I don't understand the debate.

Yes, we use the naked bootleg, and yes all parts have to sell it properly...all do great at it. Yes, the oline fires off like a zone stretch, but if Rey or whomever thinks that Matt isn't a great play faker I don't know what the hell to say....because he is.

That's why teams that I am sure spent the last week studying that very play fall for it 75% of the time. And when they don't Matt usually has to throw it away.

Lastly, we don't always use PA with a naked boot. It's often just a 5 or 7 step drop. On those plays in particular, Matt S is great at selling the fake. Go look at film of Carr and Schaub and if you think they are even close to the same, then I don't know what to tell you. Cak is correct here.
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Old 11-17-2011   #108
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

I'm happy to see all the sunshine pumpers shilling for HTM, but the truth is, TO THIS POINT, he stinks. He is David Carr all over again from holding the ball too long, to poor reads, to poor decision making to innaccuracy. These are his calling cards to this point. Speculating that suddenly the leopard changes his spots is all well and good but that and a quarter will buy you a cup of coffee. Let's put it this way - if we were playing another team that had HTM as a backup and they suddenly lost their starter, this board would be going crazy with critism and people would be saying how easy it was going to be because he sucks.

Hell, I hope he is so good that he bests Aaron Rodgers in the Super Bowl. But the odds of him even being "good" are rather slim. I really think the best we can hope for is a Trent Dilfer type - ie just don't screw up and let the other pieces carry the heavy lifting. That's good enough for a 4-2 finish.
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Old 11-17-2011   #109
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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No you really don't understand what you are talking about because the defense will key off of what the QB is doing first and foremost since he is the guy with the ball.
Stopped reading right here since you got this wrong I just figured the rest would be wrong too.

LB's tend to key off the backs primarily, O-line second, and QB's one they realize it's a pass...D-linemen RARELY key off the QB and mostly make decisions based off of what the O-line is doing...

If a d-lineman is able to look at the QB then he's firing out of his stance too high and is likely about to be drove back and put on his ass.

Do you remember in pre season against the Vikings where Ponder ran the wrong play and picked up like 10 yards or so??? Well, he ran the wrong direction but he still picked up decent yards because the whole defense flowed the direction that RB ran and the O-line was blocking.

Sorry, but I've played football at a high level and I've played under what I consider to be some damn good coaches. One of my former coaches works with the Texans, is on the sideline of every game, every practice and he has told me personally that the Texans offense is just a more pro style version of the offense that we ran. But he said the blocking schemes and play design are pretty much the same.

But you can go ahead and thinking you know what you are talking about. Really doesn't matter to me. I think I've explained myself well, so you can take it or leave it and keep thinking what you want to.

Last edited by Rey; 11-17-2011 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 11-17-2011   #110
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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but if Rey or whomever thinks that Matt isn't a great play faker I don't know what the hell to say....because he is.
Really, some of you need to read slowly or actually just flat out pay attention.

Please show me one post EVER where I commented on Schaubs Play faking level?

Show me where I said it was good or bad?
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Old 11-17-2011   #111
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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Stopped reading right here since you got this wrong I just figured the rest would be wrong too.

LB's tend to key off the backs primarily, O-line second, and QB's one they realize it's a pass...D-linemen RARELY key off the QB and mostly make decisions based off of what the O-line is doing...
Stopped reading right here because you literally do not know what you are talking about and I figured the rest of your post would be just as full of garbage (I'm sure it was).

D-line rarely keying off the QB? Okay, you can just stop right there, or at least you should've. I guess in Rey's mystery football league nobody watches the QB except for the DB's to make sure it's not a play-fake or anything, especially when playing a team like the Texans who make a lot of their offensive money on the play-action.

Keep going this is fun.
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Old 11-17-2011   #112
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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D-line rarely keying off the QB? Okay, you can just stop right there, or at least you should've.
All you're doing is giving confirmation that you don't have a clue.
D-linemen generally do not "key" off the QB. That doesn't even make sense.

That's just ignorance speaking on your behalf.
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Old 11-17-2011   #113
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

Rey, I understand where you're coming from.
The ZBs helps a little, but as teams now all know about it, they should be well prepared for it.
ALL TEAMS run some ZBS anyway.

I think it's best for you to take a step back and look at things.

1. I have heard many commentators saying Matt Schaub does a good job selling the play fake in different games.

2. When I talked about Gabbert is simply terrible at it, there's a reason.
The QB is very important in selling the play fake.

3. To start off, you can go back and watched the first play against the Bucs when Schaub went yards to JJ.

Then you can watch the Jags game, 2nd quarter, around the 11:30 min mark.
You will see the difference bettween Schaub and Gabbert.
(there are other plays from Gabbert, but I got to run now.)

Look at how Schaub extended his arm pretending to put the ball into the RB's gut while Gabbert only had his arm cocking and half-heartedly failed at a faked hand-off. The LB saw this too clearly and dropped back. This in turn helped the deep safety.

On the other hand, Talib and the safety took a peek into the backfield and both froze when Schaub extended his arm and Foster faked an acceptance of the hand-off.
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Old 11-17-2011   #114
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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I would say that a lot of the stuff he showed in the Saints game is what gave me this general opinion. He only tried a few deep throws (Which were a little off) and the short stuff wasn't really that impressive to me. He did look better against the 9'ers, and respectable enough vs the Vikings, but that Saints game bugged me about him.

I will say that I feel way better about Leinart being here as the next backup than Rex Grossman or Dan Orlovsky.
Bong, I will come back to the Saints game some other time.
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Old 11-17-2011   #115
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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Rey, I understand where you're coming from.
The ZBs helps a little, but as teams now all know about it, they should be well prepared for it.
ALL TEAMS run some ZBS anyway.

I think it's best for you to take a step back and look at things.

1. I have heard many commentators saying Matt Schaub does a good job selling the play fake in different games.

2. When I talked about Gabbert is simply terrible at it, there's a reason.
The QB is very important in selling the play fake.

3. To start off, you can go back and watched the first play against the Bucs when Schaub went yards to JJ.

Then you can watch the Jags game, 2nd quarter, around the 11:30 min mark.
You will see the difference bettween Schaub and Gabbert.
(there are other plays from Gabbert, but I got to run now.)

Look at how Schaub extended his arm pretending to put the ball into the RB's gut while Gabbert only had his arm cocking and half-heartedly failed at a faked hand-off. The LB saw this too clearly and dropped back. This in turn helped the deep safety.

On the other hand, Talib and the safety took a peek into the backfield and both froze when Schaub extended his arm and Foster faked an acceptance of the hand-off.
Zone blocking scheme includes a lot of things. Everyone in the league does not run the Zone stretch as often as we do and everyone does not run bootlegs like we do. Those are staples of THIS particular offense.

Also, If Gabbert was doing a PA with our o-line and running game success I'm sure more people would bite or have a delayed reaction.


I don't care how good your QB is at selling the run. If a team has no fear of the O-line opening holes and no fear of a RB gashing them they will not react the same.

All week the Bucs probably had it drilled in their mind that they had to stop the run. (1) they weren't good at it (2) we run the ball very well. We just came off a huge week running the ball. Arian is a beast, the O-line blocks in this scheme really well. It was an excellent play call to start the game where we caught the Bucs thinking one way and did something different.

But you want to say that the way Matt Schaub "extended his arm" is the key to that play being successful? He showed the ball for the DB's to see...That is pretty regular.

Last edited by Rey; 11-17-2011 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 11-17-2011   #116
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

No problem for the vids guys just helping out the few people that wanted to see the texans training camp from home! Btw sorry for the bad camera angle, I'll try getting it higher up next time.

Also good analysis 76! Always love reading them.


I personally don't believe in Lienart but I'm a pessimist so my opinion is not that important. I'm mainly worried about the one throw to dorin dickerson which seemed like a fairly easy completion. He has to get those throws on target when he's on the move
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Old 11-17-2011   #117
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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Old 11-17-2011   #118
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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Is this everyone's way of dealing with Schaub's loss? Is pretending that Leinart will be as good or better than him? Wow you guys are in denial. Leinart may be able to manage the game. He will NOT be better than Schaub. There will not be a QB controversy. Schaub was only the fourth QB in history to throw for 9,000 yards over 2 years. He has thrown 2.5 TDs to 1 INT this year. Expecting this kind of production from Leinart is ridiculous. To think there will be no drop off is ridiculous. It's like when we expect undrafted players to make an impact on our team their rookie season. We are putting ridiculous expectations on this guy. Lets be happy if we go 3-3. Stop setting up for disappointment. Nobody seems to realize we went 7-3 with a passing game. Expecting to go 4-2 without one to finish the season is a very high expectation. I appreciate the insight on his play and the evaluation. But we are being huge homers here. Lets be realistic please.
Good post, I repped you for it.

But, I don't think anyone said anything about Matt producing on the same level Schaub has. Maybe as much as he has this year, but no one is expecting any QB to "have to" put up 4000 passing yards a season with the running game & defense we've got.

However, we are not stuck on what Matt Lienart had done in the past, just like we weren't stuck on what Matt Schaub had done before he came here..... other than his numbers are much better here, than when he started for Atlanta.

Sage Rosenfels' numbers were better here than they were when he was in Miami.

David Carr's numbers were better here with Kubiak than it was without.

It only stands to reason Matt Lienart's numbers will be better here than they were in Arizona.
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Old 11-17-2011   #119
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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MSR



I'm stealing this one.
lol. You're gonna need it, that's for sure.

Peace.
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Old 11-17-2011   #120
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Default Re: Just my evaluation of Matt Leinart

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Rey, I understand where you're coming from.
The ZBs helps a little, but as teams now all know about it, they should be well prepared for it.
ALL TEAMS run some ZBS anyway.

I think it's best for you to take a step back and look at things.
He's absolutely correct. Lot's of teams run Play Action. We run Play Action & while it helps to suck the LBs to the LOS, it ain't nothing compared to the play action-Naked Boots we do where our WRs are WTF open.

Every now & then, you'll see Andre get WTF open on a WO boot, but I think he's talking about when Joel Dressen is so wide open he can run 40+ yards for a TD without anyone coming close to him.

You don't see "every" team doing that. That is sold by the PA+ the firing off the line of the OL.

DL can't key off the QB, like he said, their heads are too low. They can't even see the QB for the first second or two after the ball is snapped. If they were thinking run before the snap, it is confirmed when the OL attacks them. If they were thinking pass, the firing of the offensive line tells them they were wrong.

LBs are looking at the FB & RB, even before the snap, is he looking at a spot (run) or is he trying to identify the rusher (pass).... the play action is a clue, when the OL falls back, they fall into pass coverage. when they attack, they look for their lanes.

The play of the QB has something to do with it, but the OL is the biggest difference between what we do & what other teams do.
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