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Old 11-12-2011   #41
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Default Re: 2009 draft class

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
It's not legendary yet. I happen to think it is going to be.

Regarding Casey, you aren't watching the Texans with an open mind if you actually think Vickers has been the better blocker of the two. That's absurd!

I'm not sure your point about Barwin, McCain, Nolan, and Jamison... There's always someone better somewhere. If the Texans had someone better than Andre Johnson, he'd be playing instead. It amazes me at the cynicism of some. Those were four excellent picks and instead of embracing them, you would rather diminish their play. I don't get it. Those are 4 heavy contributors to the topped ranked defense in the NFL... By the way, all 4 of them are making a bigger impact on the defense than Mario Williams is currently and they will continue to be more relevant to the Texans first playoff appearence in their 10 year history than Mario will be.
Classy. Way to kick a guy when he got hurt in service of your team. Real classy.
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Old 11-13-2011   #42
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Default Re: 2009 draft class

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Classy. Way to kick a guy when he got hurt in service of your team. Real classy.
It is reality. People on this board continue to act as though Mario Williams is central to the success and failure of the defense while diminishing the impact/ability of other players (in this case: Barwin, Nolan, McCain, Jamison). Well, these are the guys that are making history for the Texans. Perhaps they don't have the amazing physical skills of Mario but why does that make them less valuable?

Connor Barwin already has more pass rush moves than Mario. Why is that? Barwin was a TE in college and has been in the NFL less than half the time Mario has, with the same coaching. Yet, one guy continues to work on his game and the other continues to rely on his failing physical dominance.

Tim Jamison plays with Antonio Smith's energy and effort. He understands his role and fulfills it without a complaint I'll take that guy on my team any day and I won't diminish his impact on the team simply because he was under-appreciated coming out of college, and he isn't starting over Antonio Smith and J.J. Watt.

Brice McCain is another guy that milks every bit of his God-given talents. Mario could learn a thing or two from this guy. He may not start but he plays the majority of snaps as the nickel CB. How's that pass defense doing?

Troy Nolan has stepped in for Danieal Manning and played well for him. Some on this board would rather diminish his achievement in defense of Mario... as if Mario is the one that is under-appeciated and Nolan gets too much credit.


Perhaps the fact that I don't play Madden football has something to do with our differences in perception. Perhaps I care less about style than some of you. I'm not sure what it is. I find it strange that the underdogs on this team are slow to be embraced while the underachievers are defended with vigor. I've never said Mario isn't a good player. I've argued that he is expendable and overpaid. Now that the defense is playing great without him for an extended period of time, it should be obvious that is true. I would rather him be healthy and playing. However, he's not and this is information the front office is not missing, even if the fans are.
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Old 11-13-2011   #43
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Default Re: 2009 draft class

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
It is reality. People on this board continue to act as though Mario Williams is central to the success and failure of the defense while diminishing the impact/ability of other players (in this case: Barwin, Nolan, McCain, Jamison). Well, these are the guys that are making history for the Texans. Perhaps they don't have the amazing physical skills of Mario but why does that make them less valuable?

Perhaps the fact that I don't play Madden football has something to do with our differences in perception. Perhaps I care less about style than some of you. I'm not sure what it is. I find it strange that the underdogs on this team are slow to be embraced while the underachievers are defended with vigor. I've never said Mario isn't a good player. I've argued that he is expendable and overpaid. Now that the defense is playing great without him for an extended period of time, it should be obvious that is true. I would rather him be healthy and playing. However, he's not and this is information the front office is not missing, even if the fans are.
since you're not just hating on mario (apparently..although i think every1 sees your agenda), i guess you feel the exact same way about aj?

we're getting the job done without him too so hes expendable & overpaid right?

anybody with a clue can see the pass rush has dipped since mario's been on ir the same way the passing game has dipped without aj. still winning and playing well on both sides of the ball thanks to the overall talent & coaching on both sides (plus the relative suckitude of the teams we've played in that period).

dont think we're not going to miss our elite players in big games against great opposition though
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Old 11-13-2011   #44
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Default Re: 2009 draft class

I just wanted to point out that we actually have a fairly good history with the draft these last few years. 2007 was mediocre, but 2008 and 2010 were fairly solid.

2007 only Jacoby is still playing
2008 Duane Brown - good pick, Schaub (in trade), Chris Meyers (in trade)
2010 KJ (he plays, yet to be seen if he's worth a #1). Ben Tate (solid pick). Earl Mitchell (solid backup). Darryl Sharpton (significant minutes with Demeco catching up). McManis solid nickel coverage

Seems to me like we've just been drafting well except for 2008 when we acquired players through trade with draft picks.

Rick Smith has taken a lot of crap on this board, but I think he's assembled a very steady pool of talent to come in and play for us. We're getting significant contributions from several of our late and undrafted picks.

Our 2006 and 2009 draft classes were definitely the best years, but 2010 may turn out to be a very good one as well depending on how KJ pans out
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Old 11-13-2011   #45
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Default Re: 2009 draft class

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Originally Posted by hradhak View Post
I just wanted to point out that we actually have a fairly good history with the draft these last few years. 2007 was mediocre, but 2008 and 2010 were fairly solid.

2007 only Jacoby is still playing
2008 Duane Brown - good pick, Schaub (in trade), Chris Meyers (in trade)
2010 KJ (he plays, yet to be seen if he's worth a #1). Ben Tate (solid pick). Earl Mitchell (solid backup). Darryl Sharpton (significant minutes with Demeco catching up). McManis solid nickel coverage

Seems to me like we've just been drafting well except for 2008 when we acquired players through trade with draft picks.

Rick Smith has taken a lot of crap on this board, but I think he's assembled a very steady pool of talent to come in and play for us. We're getting significant contributions from several of our late and undrafted picks.

Our 2006 and 2009 draft classes were definitely the best years, but 2010 may turn out to be a very good one as well depending on how KJ pans out

You are right. 2007 was a dog but the rest of them look pretty good. Regarding Rick Smith, if you believe the story that he was urging Gary Kubiak to go through an interview process for D.C after Richard Smith was fired but Kubiak declined, then Rick Smith looks even better. Amazing how much better his players look with good coaching!
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Old 11-13-2011   #46
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Default Re: 2009 draft class

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Originally Posted by Maddict5 View Post
since you're not just hating on mario (apparently..although i think every1 sees your agenda), i guess you feel the exact same way about aj?

we're getting the job done without him too so hes expendable & overpaid right?

anybody with a clue can see the pass rush has dipped since mario's been on ir the same way the passing game has dipped without aj. still winning and playing well on both sides of the ball thanks to the overall talent & coaching on both sides (plus the relative suckitude of the teams we've played in that period).

dont think we're not going to miss our elite players in big games against great opposition though
Considering the fact that AJ is signed for the next 6 years, I think, it is a moot point. That decision has already been made. As I have said over and over, I wish Mario was healthy. That is preferable. I'm talking about how to use our limited resources next year. AJ is an elite player. Mario is not elite. I see that our offense has had to make many more modifications without A.J. and has had to sacrifice certain things in order to make things work. I do not think we can beat good teams with any consistency without AJ. I do believe we can without Mario.

Without Mario, the Texans have tied a record held by the 1978 Steelers, 1985 Bears, and a few others allowing 175 yards (i think) or less to three consecutive teams. Of all the defenses to ever step on an NFL field, the Texans can own this record if they do it again today. Funny that you talk about the defense's struggle over that period of time. Who has an agenda?

In this thread, I was arguing the original point: the 2009 draft class is the predominate reason for this season's success. Others argued that 2006 is easily the main reason. I then listed all the players making a difference on the team and particularly the defense. People resonded: Mario Williams!... I said, he's not doing much right now but these guys are:

Connor Barwin
Glover Quin
Brice McCain
Troy Nolan
Tim Jamison

Then, a Mario fan began insulting these players. All the while, these players will be on the field (without Mario) with a chance to break an NFL record for defensive dominance over a period of 4 weeks.
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Old 11-13-2011   #47
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Default Re: 2009 draft class

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
I've argued that he is expendable and overpaid. Now that the defense is playing great without him for an extended period of time, it should be obvious that is true. I would rather him be healthy and playing. However, he's not and this is information the front office is not missing, even if the fans are.
Right now, it is my perception that we are blitzing more without Mario in order to generate pressure. I know some people don't care...... as long as we are generating pressure.

If I'm Wade, there are some teams, that I wouldn't mind blitzing 100% of the time. Generally because those teams are so bad offensively it would give me an opportunity to try some of my packages without being in any danger of jeopardizing the game. The teams we've played this year have been those teams. The teams we play in the play-offs, won't (except maybe Sanchez if we can keep him in the pocket).

But as a defensive coordinator, I'd like to keep my blitzing percentage down as low as possible.

Same as if I were an offensive coordinator. It's would be nice if my offense has given up less sacks than any other team in the league. But if I'm in max protect for an overwhelming majority of the time, I weaken my offense in another area to pay for that protection. Sooner or later, it will be time to pay the piper.
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Old 11-13-2011   #48
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Default Re: 2009 draft class

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That is preferable. I'm talking about how to use our limited resources next year.
Do you realize that with a new contract, Mario will have a lower cap number next year than he carried this year? And you don't even know what the cap will be next year.

Teams trying to win don't trade their best players in the prime of their career for draft picks. This isn't MLB, where a team stocks up on prospects. The last thing the Texans need to do now is get younger. Williams injury isn't career threatening. Had it been a knee, they may be wise not to commit big money. The injury is not an issue.

Nothing suggest the Texans will not re-sign Mario. And doing so should not prohibit the Texans from working other deals that need to be made. Many suggest that a draft class can't be judged for 3 years. I would say, look who is still there after 5 years (when a player enters his prime). Mario, DeMeco, Winston, Daniels. Walters in a draft pick trade. 2006 is still the gold standard of Texans drafts.
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Old 11-13-2011   #49
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Default Re: 2009 draft class

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I would say, look who is still there after 5 years (when a player enters his prime). Mario, DeMeco, Winston, Daniels. Walters in a draft pick trade. 2006 is still the gold standard of Texans drafts.
Sounds like Veteran leadership... something we've been waiting for that group to provide.

I'd like to know where this 2009 draft class would be without those guys on this team.

Add Antonio Smith to the Veteran leadership as well.

I've been (& probably still am) on Rick Smith watch. The drafts have been nice, but his FA record still looks spotty. Chris Myers, Antonio Smith, Wade Smith, Jonathan Joseph..... in only five years..... meh.... he needs to keep it up.

Matt Schaub, Mike Brisiel, Arian Foster, Vonta Leach, Shuan Cody, Lawrence Vickers, Joel Dressen...... maybe I'm being too hard on the guy.
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Old 11-13-2011   #50
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Default Re: 2009 draft class

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
Without Mario, the Texans have tied a record held by the 1978 Steelers, 1985 Bears, and a few others allowing 175 yards (i think) or less to three consecutive teams. Of all the defenses to ever step on an NFL field, the Texans can own this record if they do it again today. Funny that you talk about the defense's struggle over that period of time. Who has an agenda?

In this thread, I was arguing the original point: the 2009 draft class is the predominate reason for this season's success. Others argued that 2006 is easily the main reason. I then listed all the players making a difference on the team and particularly the defense. People resonded: Mario Williams!... I said, he's not doing much right now but these guys are:

Connor Barwin
Glover Quin
Brice McCain
Troy Nolan
Tim Jamison

Then, a Mario fan began insulting these players. All the while, these players will be on the field (without Mario) with a chance to break an NFL record for defensive dominance over a period of 4 weeks.
Those players are on the field BECAUSE they're healthy. They're not on the field because they're the best options at their positions (except maybe Quin). Yeah, they're playing hard and are providing essential depth in a somewhat injury-plagued year, but don't confuse them for future hall of famers or even pro bowlers. They are also, after all, the same guys who contributed to one of the worst defenses in history just a year ago.
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Old 11-13-2011   #51
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Default Re: 2009 draft class

I have no problem with signing MW to a long term deal. As long as Foster/Myers get reupped and their is enough cap $$$$ to extend Schaub. Along with signing a WR2 that has proven production in FA.

What humors me is the fans that say the W/L record isn't due to the schedule. Will say the only reason the defense is playing well is because of the crap offenses they've been playing. Apparently you can have it both ways if your a MW fan.
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Old 11-13-2011   #52
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Default Re: 2009 draft class

why is anyone even entertaining this.

2006 class.....3, soon to be 4 pro bowlers.

The 2009 class....mostly depth guys some of whom wouldn't even be playing if not for injuries...Troy Nolan.

This isn't a debate its the 2006 draft.
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Old 11-13-2011   #53
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Default Re: 2009 draft class

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Originally Posted by bo orlando View Post
Those players are on the field BECAUSE they're healthy. They're not on the field because they're the best options at their positions (except maybe Quin). Yeah, they're playing hard and are providing essential depth in a somewhat injury-plagued year, but don't confuse them for future hall of famers or even pro bowlers. They are also, after all, the same guys who contributed to one of the worst defenses in history just a year ago.
So did Mario!
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Old 11-13-2011   #54
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Default Re: 2009 draft class

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why is anyone even entertaining this.

2006 class.....3, soon to be 4 pro bowlers.

The 2009 class....mostly depth guys some of whom wouldn't even be playing if not for injuries...Troy Nolan.

This isn't a debate its the 2006 draft.
Demeco and Mario aren't probowlers this year... OD? maybe.

Cushing- Allpro
AFoster- Allpro

Barwin
Quin
Casey
McCain... are all better than the majority of starters at their position... yes, I know McCain is a nickel corner, but he's on the field the majority of time
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Old 11-13-2011   #55
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Default Re: 2009 draft class

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I have no problem with signing MW to a long term deal. As long as Foster/Myers get reupped and their is enough cap $$$$ to extend Schaub. Along with signing a WR2 that has proven production in FA.

What humors me is the fans that say the W/L record isn't due to the schedule. Will say the only reason the defense is playing well is because of the crap offenses they've been playing. Apparently you can have it both ways if your a MW fan.
Soooo you're saying hiring Wade was a waste money because, given the schedule, we'd have been this good whether we changed defensive coordinators or not...??

Just asking for clarification.
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Old 11-13-2011   #56
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Default Re: 2009 draft class

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Soooo you're saying hiring Wade was a waste money because, given the schedule, we'd have been this good whether we changed defensive coordinators or not...??

Just asking for clarification.
Come on man, you know better than this. Wade's draft + his awsome ability to put player in a position to succeed is the reason for this amazing defensive turnaround. He** he's even made an adequate CB out of KJ. LOL

I was just pointing out the double standard in relation to MW/schedule vs W/L in relation to the schedule.

BTW if the team keeps improving (I'm looking forward to the Atl game) they can make a deep playoff run. (Didn't think I would be saying that this yr.) They appear to groing in confidence. They will be dangerous come playoff time.
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Old 11-13-2011   #57
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Default Re: 2009 draft class

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Demeco and Mario aren't probowlers this year... OD? maybe.

Cushing- Allpro
AFoster- Allpro

Barwin
Quin
Casey
McCain... are all better than the majority of starters at their position... yes, I know McCain is a nickel corner, but he's on the field the majority of time


In your haste to downplay any and everything that casts MW in a favorable light you're attempting to make long term predictions based on short term results. Way take a snapshot.

What if Cush & Arian get hurt & are out for the season? Are they still all pro in 2011 then (knocks on wood)?

What we know is that the 2006 class has 4 players that are unquestionably among the best at their positions..it has been born out over the length of their careers.

The 2009 class has 2 guys that are. But really, How in the hell can you assert that Quinn is among the best at his position when he's in the 1st year of playing his position? At most He's been solid & nothing more. & are you really saying that a nickel cb is better than guys who start? Ummm...... If he was that good.......don't you think he'd be starting here? Your statement doesn't make any sense.
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Old 11-13-2011   #58
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Default Re: 2009 draft class

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In your haste to downplay any and everything that casts MW in a favorable light you're attempting to make long term predictions based on short term results. Way take a snapshot.

What if Cush & Arian get hurt & are out for the season? Are they still all pro in 2011 then (knocks on wood)?

What we know is that the 2006 class has 4 players that are unquestionably among the best at their positions..it has been born out over the length of their careers.

The 2009 class has 2 guys that are. But really, How in the hell can you assert that Quinn & McCain are among the best at their positions when 1 is in his 1st year playing in his position and the other isn't even good enough to crack the starting line-up on his own team?
by watching football on Sundays in 2011!
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Old 11-13-2011   #59
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Default Re: 2009 draft class

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by watching football on Sundays in 2011!
you need to watch more then b/c you clearly don't know what you're looking at.
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Old 11-14-2011   #60
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Default Re: 2009 draft class

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you need to watch more then b/c you clearly don't know what you're looking at.
I watched some more: I still liked what I saw from Barwin, Quin, McCain and company. Call me crazy.
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