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Old 11-08-2011   #21
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Default Re: New franchise tag (relates to Mario)

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Regardless what happens in FA next off-season, I doubt we'll start a rookie anywhere on this team.

With Brandon Harris not being activated...... our 5th, 6th, & 7th round picks probably won't make the team.
You think we'll spend our last 3 draft picks on cb? I could easily see us starting a rookie WR. Silly post, TK. I'm drinking the koolade, too. I just don't wear my rose colored glasses when I do it.
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Old 11-08-2011   #22
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Default Re: New franchise tag (relates to Mario)

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Regardless what happens in FA next off-season, I doubt we'll start a rookie anywhere on this team.

With Brandon Harris not being activated...... our 5th, 6th, & 7th round picks probably won't make the team.
So a drafted WR or OG could not start over whom we have? Not sure I agree with that.
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Old 11-08-2011   #23
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Default Re: New franchise tag (relates to Mario)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Section516 View Post
While we have a moment, let's clarify an important part of last week's discussion about Chicago Bears tailback Matt Forte and the possible application of a future franchise tag.

As we noted, Forte would earn about $7.7 million if the Bears make him their franchise player in 2012. But along with many others, I wasn't fully informed about how the NFL has arrived at that figure.

As ESPN analyst Andrew Brandt explained for the National Football Post, the league's new collective bargaining agreement (CBA) changed the fundamentals of the franchise tag. It's no longer the average of the five highest-paid players at the position. Instead, it's the average of the highest-paid player at the position in each of the last five years.

Because it reaches back to dated salary figures, the new formula has actually pulled down franchise tag numbers significantly and made it even less attractive for players. For example, the estimated $7.7 million franchise number for running backs in 2012 is about 19 percent less than the 2011 number.

As Brandt notes, this change could also impact the Green Bay Packers' upcoming negotiations with tight end Jermichael Finley. The 2012 franchise tag number for tight ends is estimated between $5.4 million and $5.6 million, about 27 percent less than the 2011 number of $7.3 million. Finley at $7.3 million sounded doable, but $5.6 million sounds like a relative slam dunk.

Generally speaking, the franchise tag is a bigger advantage for NFL teams than ever. Elite players can be locked up for substantially less than before, and the lower numbers will give teams a new tool to prevent departures from good players who wouldn't otherwise have been considered candidates for a high guaranteed salary.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation

In regards to being the average of last five years, is that the number that the 16m for a franchise is based off of?
Here is the exact wording of the CBA that comes from the link CND posted:
Nonexclusive Franchise Tender. The Nonexclusive Franchise Tender
shall be a one year NFL Player Contract for (A) the average of the five largest Prior Year
Salaries for players at the position (within the categories set forth in Section 7 (a) below)
at which the Franchise Player participated in the most plays during the prior League
Year, which average shall be calculated by: (1) summing the amounts of the Franchise
Tags for players at that position for the five preceding League Years; (2) dividing the
resulting amount by the sum of the Salary Caps for the five preceding League Years
(using the average of the amounts of the 2009 and 201 1 Salary Caps as the Salary Cap
amount for the 2010 League Year); and (3) multiplying the resulting percentage by the
Salary Cap for the upcoming League Year (e.g., when calculating the Tender for the 2012
League Year, dividing the aggregate sum of the Franchise Tags for players at that position
for the 2007-201 1 League Years by the aggregate sum of the Salary Caps for the
2007-20 1 1 League Years and multiplying the result by the amount of the Salary Cap for
the 20 1 2 League Year) (the "Cap Percentage Average") (See Appendix E for an illustrative
example); or (B) 120% of his Prior Year Salary, whichever is greater; if the Club
extends the Tender pursuant to this Subsection (a) (i), the player shall be permitted to
negotiate a Player Contract with any Club as if he were a player subject to Section 5
below, except that Draft Choice Compensation of two first round draft selections shall
be made with respect to such player in the event he signs with the New Club, and the
Signing Period for such player shall be determined under Section 1 4 below. For purposes
of this Subsection, the "Franchise Tag" is the average of the five largest Prior Year Salaries
(e.g., the Franchise Tag for the 2010 League Year equals the average of the five
largest Salaries for the 2009 League Year for players at that position); or
(ii) Exclusive Franchise Tender. The Exclusive Franchise Tender shall be
a one year NFL Player Contract for (A) the average of the five largest Salaries in Player
Contracts for that League Year as of the end of the Restricted Free Agent Signing Period
that League Year, as set forth in Article 9, Section 2( e), for players at the position (within
the categories set forth in Section 7(a) below) at which he participated in the most plays
during the prior League Year, or (B) the amount of the Required Tender under Subsection
(a) (i) above, whichever is greater.


I am exhausted and I've read this several times. Some of you guys explain it.

As other say, it does not appear to effect Mario who would get the 120% I've posted before.
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Old 11-09-2011   #24
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Default Re: New franchise tag (relates to Mario)

Quote:
Originally Posted by badboy View Post
Here is the exact wording of the CBA that comes from the link CND posted:
Nonexclusive Franchise Tender. The Nonexclusive Franchise Tender
shall be a one year NFL Player Contract for (A) the average of the five largest Prior Year
Salaries for players at the position (within the categories set forth in Section 7 (a) below)
at which the Franchise Player participated in the most plays during the prior League
Year, which average shall be calculated by: (1) summing the amounts of the Franchise
Tags for players at that position for the five preceding League Years; (2) dividing the
resulting amount by the sum of the Salary Caps for the five preceding League Years
(using the average of the amounts of the 2009 and 201 1 Salary Caps as the Salary Cap
amount for the 2010 League Year); and (3) multiplying the resulting percentage by the
Salary Cap for the upcoming League Year (e.g., when calculating the Tender for the 2012
League Year, dividing the aggregate sum of the Franchise Tags for players at that position
for the 2007-201 1 League Years by the aggregate sum of the Salary Caps for the
2007-20 1 1 League Years and multiplying the result by the amount of the Salary Cap for
the 20 1 2 League Year) (the "Cap Percentage Average") (See Appendix E for an illustrative
example); or (B) 120% of his Prior Year Salary, whichever is greater; if the Club
extends the Tender pursuant to this Subsection (a) (i), the player shall be permitted to
negotiate a Player Contract with any Club as if he were a player subject to Section 5
below, except that Draft Choice Compensation of two first round draft selections shall
be made with respect to such player in the event he signs with the New Club, and the
Signing Period for such player shall be determined under Section 1 4 below. For purposes
of this Subsection, the "Franchise Tag" is the average of the five largest Prior Year Salaries
(e.g., the Franchise Tag for the 2010 League Year equals the average of the five
largest Salaries for the 2009 League Year for players at that position); or
(ii) Exclusive Franchise Tender. The Exclusive Franchise Tender shall be
a one year NFL Player Contract for (A) the average of the five largest Salaries in Player
Contracts for that League Year as of the end of the Restricted Free Agent Signing Period
that League Year, as set forth in Article 9, Section 2( e), for players at the position (within
the categories set forth in Section 7(a) below) at which he participated in the most plays
during the prior League Year, or (B) the amount of the Required Tender under Subsection
(a) (i) above, whichever is greater.


I am exhausted and I've read this several times. Some of you guys explain it.

As other say, it does not appear to effect Mario who would get the 120% I've posted before.
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Old 11-09-2011   #25
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Default Re: New franchise tag (relates to Mario)

Quote:
Originally Posted by badboy View Post
So a drafted WR or OG could not start over whom we have? Not sure I agree with that.
Kubiak will not start a drafted WR over KDub..... not going to happen.

He won't start a drafted OG over Brisiel or Wade Smith. Even though those guys are not perfect, KDub included, they all bring something to the table that Kubiak likes.
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Old 11-09-2011   #26
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Default Re: New franchise tag (relates to Mario)

Are those $16-17 million dollar franchise tag numbers for OLB's or DE's?

How does Mario's position change affect how he's tagged?
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Old 11-09-2011   #27
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Default Re: New franchise tag (relates to Mario)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Lou View Post
Are those $16-17 million dollar franchise tag numbers for OLB's or DE's?

How does Mario's position change affect how he's tagged?
imo it does not. Any tag placed on Mario triggers the 120% of his last season's salary. $13.8m + $2.76m (20%)= $16.56m. Earlier in this thread someone posted the one year offers and compensation picks if any.

BTW, that amount would also be the cap hit as no bonus money.
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Old 11-09-2011   #28
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Default Re: New franchise tag (relates to Mario)

Quote:
Originally Posted by badboy View Post
imo it does not. Any tag placed on Mario triggers the 120% of his last season's salary. $13.8m + $2.76m (20%)= $16.56m. Earlier in this thread someone posted the one year offers and compensation picks if any.

BTW, that amount would also be the cap hit as no bonus money.
That last year of his contract is the problem. Whoever made up his contract was a freaking moron. Honestly, 1st pick overall and you BACKLOAD his contract? Seriously wtf? Look at the numbers:

Year Base Salary Misc. Bonus Cap Hit
2006 275,000 - 1,350,000 - 1,625,000
2007 975,000 - 1,350,000 - 2,325,000
2008 2,350,000 - 1,350,000 - 3,700,000
2009 2,875,000 - 1,350,000 - 4,225,000
2010 3,025,000 - 1,350,000 - 4,375,000
2011 13,800,000 - 1,350,000 - 15,150,000
2012 UFA

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-t...ario-williams/

So the total was 54 million with an average salary was 9 million. If they had just made his final year worth 9 million and spread out the money over the other years, we wouldn't have any problem franchising him. Instead, it will cost a boatload of money to franchise him if we don't get a deal done, and we may end up losing him because of it.

Is this Charlie Casserly's fault?
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Old 11-09-2011   #29
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Default Re: New franchise tag (relates to Mario)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
That last year of his contract is the problem. Whoever made up his contract was a freaking moron. Honestly, 1st pick overall and you BACKLOAD his contract? Seriously wtf? Look at the numbers:

Year Base Salary Misc. Bonus Cap Hit
2006 275,000 - 1,350,000 - 1,625,000
2007 975,000 - 1,350,000 - 2,325,000
2008 2,350,000 - 1,350,000 - 3,700,000
2009 2,875,000 - 1,350,000 - 4,225,000
2010 3,025,000 - 1,350,000 - 4,375,000
2011 13,800,000 - 1,350,000 - 15,150,000
2012 UFA

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-t...ario-williams/

So the total was 54 million with an average salary was 9 million. If they had just made his final year worth 9 million and spread out the money over the other years, we wouldn't have any problem franchising him. Instead, it will cost a boatload of money to franchise him if we don't get a deal done, and we may end up losing him because of it.

Is this Charlie Casserly's fault?
I think it was possible the team was trying to make their selection of Mario over Bush/Young go over better with fans. IIRC, Mario's agent recommended this deal. Also, we now have CHris Olsen as CAP guru so that should not happen again. We should back end his next deal though. I am creating info on a thread from Mario's point of view for next contract.
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Old 11-09-2011   #30
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Default Re: New franchise tag (relates to Mario)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
That last year of his contract is the problem. Whoever made up his contract was a freaking moron. Honestly, 1st pick overall and you BACKLOAD his contract? Seriously wtf? Look at the numbers:

Year Base Salary Misc. Bonus Cap Hit
2006 275,000 - 1,350,000 - 1,625,000
2007 975,000 - 1,350,000 - 2,325,000
2008 2,350,000 - 1,350,000 - 3,700,000
2009 2,875,000 - 1,350,000 - 4,225,000
2010 3,025,000 - 1,350,000 - 4,375,000
2011 13,800,000 - 1,350,000 - 15,150,000
2012 UFA

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-t...ario-williams/

So the total was 54 million with an average salary was 9 million. If they had just made his final year worth 9 million and spread out the money over the other years, we wouldn't have any problem franchising him. Instead, it will cost a boatload of money to franchise him if we don't get a deal done, and we may end up losing him because of it.

Is this Charlie Casserly's fault?
You aren't thinking worse case scenarios. Suppose he was a bust and you figured that out in year 3 of the 5-year deal. Since there are no guaranteed contracts in the NFL (only some percentage of guaranteed money) you could release him two years before this fifth year "balloon payment" came due. Then you would end up saving the team money.

At least that's the way I figure it.
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Old 11-09-2011   #31
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Default Re: New franchise tag (relates to Mario)

Quote:
Originally Posted by badboy View Post
I think it was possible the team was trying to make their selection of Mario over Bush/Young go over better with fans. IIRC, Mario's agent recommended this deal. Also, we now have CHris Olsen as CAP guru so that should not happen again. We should back end his next deal though. I am creating info on a thread from Mario's point of view for next contract.
Yeah, for vets you always backload a deal to make protect your money from being wasted. I would expect Mario's next deal to escalate over time, but not like this one. Year four: 3 million, Year five: 13.8 million. That's a steep climb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ObsiWan View Post
You aren't thinking worse case scenarios. Suppose he was a bust and you figured that out in year 3 of the 5-year deal. Since there are no guaranteed contracts in the NFL (only some percentage of guaranteed money) you could release him two years before this fifth year "balloon payment" came due. Then you would end up saving the team money.

At least that's the way I figure it.
The way the contract was structured, 26.5 million was guaranteed. That means almost all of his base salary for the contract was guaranteed, which is why they couldn't cut him this year to save that money. They were going to pay this out one way or another, so why not spread it out more instead of having a balloon payment of 11 million more in 2011 vs 2010? Sounds really stupid to me and it makes franchising him a much bigger issue as his tag cost is enormous.
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Old 11-09-2011   #32
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Default Re: New franchise tag (relates to Mario)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
That last year of his contract is the problem. Whoever made up his contract was a freaking moron. Honestly, 1st pick overall and you BACKLOAD his contract? Seriously wtf? Look at the numbers:

Year Base Salary Misc. Bonus Cap Hit
2006 275,000 - 1,350,000 - 1,625,000
2007 975,000 - 1,350,000 - 2,325,000
2008 2,350,000 - 1,350,000 - 3,700,000
2009 2,875,000 - 1,350,000 - 4,225,000
2010 3,025,000 - 1,350,000 - 4,375,000
2011 13,800,000 - 1,350,000 - 15,150,000
2012 UFA

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-t...ario-williams/

So the total was 54 million with an average salary was 9 million. If they had just made his final year worth 9 million and spread out the money over the other years, we wouldn't have any problem franchising him. Instead, it will cost a boatload of money to franchise him if we don't get a deal done, and we may end up losing him because of it.

Is this Charlie Casserly's fault?

Wow! If this is accurate, we should've cut Mario before the season. We could have saved $12 million and spent it in that free agent class.
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Old 11-09-2011   #33
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Default Re: New franchise tag (relates to Mario)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
That last year of his contract is the problem. Whoever made up his contract was a freaking moron. Honestly, 1st pick overall and you BACKLOAD his contract? Seriously wtf? Look at the numbers:

Year Base Salary Misc. Bonus Cap Hit
2006 275,000 - 1,350,000 - 1,625,000
2007 975,000 - 1,350,000 - 2,325,000
2008 2,350,000 - 1,350,000 - 3,700,000
2009 2,875,000 - 1,350,000 - 4,225,000
2010 3,025,000 - 1,350,000 - 4,375,000
2011 13,800,000 - 1,350,000 - 15,150,000
2012 UFA

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-t...ario-williams/

So the total was 54 million with an average salary was 9 million. If they had just made his final year worth 9 million and spread out the money over the other years, we wouldn't have any problem franchising him. Instead, it will cost a boatload of money to franchise him if we don't get a deal done, and we may end up losing him because of it.

Is this Charlie Casserly's fault?
Contracts are back-end loaded when no one expects the player to play the contract out. Mario's performance should have been so good, that his contract should have been redone in the off-season.

With Mario missing the last three games of 2010, the lock-out & knowing they were going to be moving Mario to OLB, how can you make the decision to redo his contract?
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Old 11-09-2011   #34
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Default Off season from Mario's view

Most know that I am an advocate of trading WIlliams IF the deal is good. Last night for some reason I decided to place myself in Mario's shoes. Of course they were too big and I fell down. Seriously though I had not looked at the off season from his pov. So here we go.


I am 6'6" 280 lbs and I will be only 27 going into my next contract. I can play 4-3 DE or 3-4 DE. We now know under Wade Phillips I can play OLB and I avg a sack per game. Can you imagine how good I'll be with the seasoned defense going into 2012? You are going to mention injuries, well let me bring it up. For five years I played thru all sorts of crazy stuff but only missed three, I repeat three games until this season.

Franchise me if you want, $16.56 m will look good in my checking account, but I want and you want a long term reasonable deal. My first contract except for the last year was overwhelmingly in team's favor so let's not focus on 2011 & forget the other five years. Here's what I want:

5 years $70 million. $15m upfront prorated over 5 years = $3m to add to my cap figure. The remaining $55m to be paid as follows year one $8m +3 (11 cap) year 2 $10m +3 ($13m cap) year 3 $12m +3 ($15) year 4 &5 12.5m + $3 each.

Don't like either? Well, I would love to go free and see what the other teams like Patriots would offer. Can you imaginge that team with me and two firsts and two seconds in next draft?

Try to trade me to another team and I will refuse to negotiate a new deal.

See ya at OTA's!
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Old 11-09-2011   #35
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Default Re: New franchise tag (relates to Mario)

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Contracts are back-end loaded when no one expects the player to play the contract out. Mario's performance should have been so good, that his contract should have been redone in the off-season.

With Mario missing the last three games of 2010, the lock-out & knowing they were going to be moving Mario to OLB, how can you make the decision to redo his contract?
He was basically guaranteed to stay through his entire contract given the way it was structured, so why not shift some of that 13.8 million in 2011 to 2010 during an un-capped year? Wouldn't that make a lot of sense if you are a pro-active GM or cap manager? That's why we signed Demeco to a big deal and front-loaded it. It just seems to me that someone wasn't thinking ahead, or maybe they were absolutely certain that Mario will sign a long-term deal. I dunno, but it does put the Texans in a bind.
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Old 11-09-2011   #36
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Default Re: New franchise tag (relates to Mario)

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I dunno, but it does put the Texans in a bind.
We'll see.

Usually these big time FAs want to go to a championship contender. If we're ranked anywhere near #1 defensively & get to the AFC Championship Game, we'll be that team.

Being that Mario was drafted by the Texans & treated pretty well by the Texans, he may have no intentions of signing with anyone but the Texans..... like Andre.

As long as we offer him something reasonable (& I don't know what that is) the Franchise tag may not even come close to being a possibility.

Regardless where he goes, his guaranteed money will be more than the franchise tag. We could offer him $40 million guaranteed on a 6 year deal, back loaded where his average cap hit would be $10 million a year.

Loaded heavily on the last 2 years, so it would basically be a 4 year contract with the understanding that it would be redone for the 2016 season.

We save $3 million over his current cap hit, he averages $1M+ more a year, & he's got $40 million in his pocket.
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Old 11-09-2011   #37
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Default Re: Off season from Mario's view

Do you think the Patriots would sign Mario to a deal like that? Tell Mario to go & see what the Patriots are thinking about & we'll match them.

Do you have a problem with Mario with a cap number between $11M & $15.5M?
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Old 11-09-2011   #38
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Default Re: New franchise tag (relates to Mario)

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That last year of his contract is the problem. Whoever made up his contract was a freaking moron. Honestly, 1st pick overall and you BACKLOAD his contract? Seriously wtf? Look at the numbers:

Year Base Salary Misc. Bonus Cap Hit
2006 275,000 - 1,350,000 - 1,625,000
2007 975,000 - 1,350,000 - 2,325,000
2008 2,350,000 - 1,350,000 - 3,700,000
2009 2,875,000 - 1,350,000 - 4,225,000
2010 3,025,000 - 1,350,000 - 4,375,000
2011 13,800,000 - 1,350,000 - 15,150,000
2012 UFA

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-t...ario-williams/

So the total was 54 million with an average salary was 9 million. If they had just made his final year worth 9 million and spread out the money over the other years, we wouldn't have any problem franchising him. Instead, it will cost a boatload of money to franchise him if we don't get a deal done, and we may end up losing him because of it.

Is this Charlie Casserly's fault?
I'm not sure, but weren't we in "cap hell" back then with big contracts to some players who were not even on the team anymore? Plus, I think resigning HWSNBN had just been completed. That might have had something to do with back loading Mario's contract.
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Old 11-09-2011   #39
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Default Re: Off season from Mario's view

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Do you think the Patriots would sign Mario to a deal like that? Tell Mario to go & see what the Patriots are thinking about & we'll match them.

Do you have a problem with Mario with a cap number between $11M & $15.5M?
NE thought they would be SB champs last two years. They gambled on DT Hainesworth and lost & cut him.
They drafted Devon McCourty but are hurting on DBs as Ras I Dowling on IR.

Their front 4 are over the hill. Andre Carter DE is 32. NT Wilfork is 30 & Mark ANderson is 28. He not kept by Houston or Chicago (twice).

Rob Nincovitch & Dane Fletcher ( who are these guys?) are the OLBs.

Yep, I think I could find a way to pay Mario.
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Old 11-09-2011   #40
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Default Re: Off season from Mario's view

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Yep, I think I could find a way to pay Mario.
Then if that's reasonable to the Patriots (as opposed to some dumbass like Jerrah or Snyder) then that's what I would pay Mario.
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