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Old 01-20-2012   #1
dinkatoid
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Default Jason Allen

I apologize if there is a thread on this, didn't see one in a quick search.

There is obviously a lot of talk about Mario Williams being a free agent, and for good reason. However, I am also curious on everyone's thoughts about Jason Allen. Allen is a free agent now and since we claimed him on waivers, made just 980k (base - ~1.2M against the cap w/ signing bonus) this year (http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/...ns/cornerback/). I am assuming due to the salaries of others, Allen would want more than 1m a year, and would warrant in the 2.2-3m a year range (just an estimate from me by looking at others in that range - you can see others by clicking the texans link and going to all corners).

This contract should stir up some debate I assume, as our CB#2 position seems to split this board's members. Kareem Jackson is getting about 2 Mil this year, but 1.3 of it is from the signing bonus, so really only saves us 700k if he were gone, so I am taking cutting Kareem out of the equation. This leaves us with 3 different choices the way I see it:

1) Resign Allen to continue our timeshare
2) Let Allen walk, work with what we have on the roster (Jackson + Harris)
3) Let Allen walk, go get another fairly cheap CB (could include draft)

Mario Williams will have some impact on this debate because of the cap, but we will have to do the best with what we have. I'd obviously love to have another Jonathan Joseph, but we can't afford that. If these were our options, what would you want the Texans to do?

My thoughts would be to go with what will probably be an unpopular idea, but go with #2. Kareem has definitely made strides this season, and looked way better than what he did last season. I do not think that going to get a low priced CB or another rookie would improve much on it. With the pressure we are now bringing, it will help mask some of his issues, and we will just have to be careful not to put him on fast CBs.

I think with an entire offseason to work with the coaches, he might make even more strides. If he does not, well, that sucks, but we can always use him like we did this year and see if Brandon Harris can take the Jason Allen spot. I think we need the cap space too much to get guys like Myers resigned.
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Old 01-20-2012   #2
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Default Re: Jason Allen

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinkatoid View Post
I apologize if there is a thread on this, didn't see one in a quick search.

There is obviously a lot of talk about Mario Williams being a free agent, and for good reason. However, I am also curious on everyone's thoughts about Jason Allen. Allen is a free agent now and since we claimed him on waivers, made just 980k (base - ~1.2M against the cap w/ signing bonus) this year (http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/...ns/cornerback/). I am assuming due to the salaries of others, Allen would want more than 1m a year, and would warrant in the 2.2-3m a year range (just an estimate from me by looking at others in that range - you can see others by clicking the texans link and going to all corners).

This contract should stir up some debate I assume, as our CB#2 position seems to split this board's members. Kareem Jackson is getting about 2 Mil this year, but 1.3 of it is from the signing bonus, so really only saves us 700k if he were gone, so I am taking cutting Kareem out of the equation. This leaves us with 3 different choices the way I see it:

1) Resign Allen to continue our timeshare
2) Let Allen walk, work with what we have on the roster (Jackson + Harris)
3) Let Allen walk, go get another fairly cheap CB (could include draft)

Mario Williams will have some impact on this debate because of the cap, but we will have to do the best with what we have. I'd obviously love to have another Jonathan Joseph, but we can't afford that. If these were our options, what would you want the Texans to do?

My thoughts would be to go with what will probably be an unpopular idea, but go with #2. Kareem has definitely made strides this season, and looked way better than what he did last season. I do not think that going to get a low priced CB or another rookie would improve much on it. With the pressure we are now bringing, it will help mask some of his issues, and we will just have to be careful not to put him on fast CBs.

I think with an entire offseason to work with the coaches, he might make even more strides. If he does not, well, that sucks, but we can always use him like we did this year and see if Brandon Harris can take the Jason Allen spot. I think we need the cap space too much to get guys like Myers resigned.
I'd resign him. Regardless of what people have been saying, I've thought our CB2 spot has been pretty strong with the platoon there. With how well our defense has played all year, why fix something that ain't broke? Hope Harris develops and hope Kareem develops, stick with Allen in the timeshare
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Old 01-20-2012   #3
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Default Re: Jason Allen

I like Jason Allen as long as he's cheap. He can be a decent #2 CB. He has balls skills and he sticks in coverage pretty well. He won't ever be a #1 CB, but he's not much worse in coverage than Dunta Robinson was. He's the kind of guy that makes Kareem Jackson a better player, because either KJ steps up to the competition, or he plays as the #3 CB, which he can handle just fine. Allen provides competition, depth, and quality play at a position that's pretty important these days.
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Old 01-20-2012   #4
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Default Re: Jason Allen

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Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
I like Jason Allen as long as he's cheap. He can be a decent #2 CB. He has balls skills and he sticks in coverage pretty well. He won't ever be a #1 CB, but he's not much worse in coverage than Dunta Robinson was. He's the kind of guy that makes Kareem Jackson a better player, because either KJ steps up to the competition, or he plays as the #3 CB, which he can handle just fine. Allen provides competition, depth, and quality play at a position that's pretty important these days.
^^^^
This

I would also draft a CB in rd 3/4 to provide even more competition.
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Old 01-20-2012   #5
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Default Re: Jason Allen

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
^^^^
This

I would also draft a CB in rd 3/4 to provide even more competition.
It depends on how they really feel about Brandon Harris. If the lack of playing time this season was a result of their opinion of him as a player, then maybe. If it was just their way of trying to not repeat the Kareem Jackson rookie experience, then we've already got you're 3rd (well, 2nd actually) and 4th round picks to provide competition in the form of Harris and Rashad Carmichael.

It's very possible that these guys were impacted more than most by the lack of any off-season activities prior to their rookie season.
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Old 01-20-2012   #6
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Default Re: Jason Allen

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
^^^^
This

I would also draft a CB in rd 3/4 to provide even more competition.
Why?

On the roster we have these guys (assuming they all come back)

Jonathan Joseph, 1st round
Kareem Jackson, 1st round
Jason Allen, 1st round
Brandon Harris, 2nd round
Brice McCain, 6th round
Sherrick McManis, 5th round
Torri Williams, UDFA
Roc Carmichael, 4th round

None of them are particularly old or lousy. At least not since Kareem started playing up to his potential. Maybe use a 5th or 6th on somebody but I'd prefer we go offense as much as possible this draft. Picks 1-4 should be WR, G/T, WR, and G/T in no particular order unless somebody drops to us who we can't believe we have a shot at.

But I wouldn't waste a 1-4 pick on defensive backs just to provide more competition. We have plenty of competition at the position right now.
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Old 01-20-2012   #7
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Default Re: Jason Allen

No this guy has earned his spot on this team and I love his size at the position we need to resign him and get rid some of the other dead weight in the secondary he is great fit for what we do.
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Old 01-20-2012   #8
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Default Re: Jason Allen

Quote:
Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
I like Jason Allen as long as he's cheap. He can be a decent #2 CB. He has balls skills and he sticks in coverage pretty well. He won't ever be a #1 CB, but he's not much worse in coverage than Dunta Robinson was. He's the kind of guy that makes Kareem Jackson a better player, because either KJ steps up to the competition, or he plays as the #3 CB, which he can handle just fine. Allen provides competition, depth, and quality play at a position that's pretty important these days.
That's about where I'm at.
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Old 01-20-2012   #9
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Default Re: Jason Allen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
Jonathan Joseph, 1st round
Kareem Jackson, 1st round
Jason Allen, 1st round
Brandon Harris, 2nd round
Brice McCain, 6th round
Sherrick McManis, 5th round
Torri Williams, UDFA
Roc Carmichael, 4th round

Look at this list, now draw an imaginary line through Allen's name. The top 3 guys are your starters Joseph #1, Jackson #2, and Harris is the Nickle. If just one of those 3 goes down with an injury during the year, a very real possibility, who do you want to take their place? Which guy below Harris on this list do you want to be a starting CB in the NFL? Allen isn't great, he'll never be a good #1, but he's not bad either and he offers us experience and depth at a critical position. Also if we re-sign Mario we're not going to have the money to chase a FA CB or sign anyone other than cheap roster fodder. Remember we also have Myers, Dreesen, and Foster to re-sign. Hell yes you re-sign Allen.
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Old 01-20-2012   #10
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Default Re: Jason Allen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf6151 View Post
Look at this list, now draw an imaginary line through Allen's name. The top 3 guys are your starters Joseph #1, Jackson #2, and Harris is the Nickle. If just one of those 3 goes down with an injury during the year, a very real possibility, who do you want to take their place? Which guy below Harris on this list do you want to be a starting CB in the NFL? Allen isn't great, he'll never be a good #1, but he's not bad either and he offers us experience and depth at a critical position. Also if we re-sign Mario we're not going to have the money to chase a FA CB or sign anyone other than cheap roster fodder. Remember we also have Myers, Dreesen, and Foster to re-sign. Hell yes you re-sign Allen.
McCain played really well at nickel this season
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Old 01-20-2012   #11
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Default Re: Jason Allen

I would upgrade over both Jackson and Allen but that is just me.
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Old 01-20-2012   #12
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Default Re: Jason Allen

I liked the platoon of KJ & Allen. I think it was "good enough". Kind of funny how their games are total opposites. One's weaknesses is the other's strength.

But here's the thing, we are crowded at the corner position.

KJ & JoJo - starters
McCain - nickel
McManis - versatile db that can play corner, safety, and return
Roc & Harris - ?

If we bring back Allen, what to do about Roc & Harris? We can't put Roc back on IR, and are we really going to make Harris inactive just about every game again? The other option is to cut McManis?

I have a feeling Allen will be the odd man out and Harris will take over his role.
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Old 01-20-2012   #13
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Default Re: Jason Allen

he yes you resign him but everyone already knew i'd say that
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Old 01-20-2012   #14
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Default Re: Jason Allen

I wish, Jason Allen would have played more like he did vs Baltimore.... not when he gave up the TD, but later, when he was getting physical with Bolden, earlier in the season.

There are times to play press coverage, times to play 5 yards off the line.... 7 yards, 10 yards..... deeper.

Depending on the scheme & down & distance.

We were playing run first, sending the house at Ray Rice/Joe Flacco & we needed our CBs to press at the line & not allow Bolden to get off the line free. This was Allen's most physical game. I like to think Wade or Vance chewed him out after the TD told him to man up & see how it works..... he was pretty successful, I think. He took Bolden out of the game, I think. Was all in his head. They were playing past the whistle, jawing the whole time.

If it weren't for the Brandon Harris, Carmichael, McMannis, McCain.....

Hell, I'd probably cut McCain... or maybe we can trade McCain & Jacoby for somet'n.

It would have been an easier decision for me if he played that physical earlier in the year & more often.

I'm a Kareem apologist, I know. I think he's where a 2nd player should be, if not a little behind. Too early to give up on him.... but I think Allen had a better game when it mattered... vs Baltimore. Had he played to start the game the way he did at the end of the game, Bolden never would have scored that TD..... he was too upset, too out of it.
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Old 01-20-2012   #15
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Default Re: Jason Allen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf6151 View Post
Look at this list, now draw an imaginary line through Allen's name. The top 3 guys are your starters Joseph #1, Jackson #2, and Harris is the Nickle. If just one of those 3 goes down with an injury during the year, a very real possibility, who do you want to take their place? Which guy below Harris on this list do you want to be a starting CB in the NFL? Allen isn't great, he'll never be a good #1, but he's not bad either and he offers us experience and depth at a critical position. Also if we re-sign Mario we're not going to have the money to chase a FA CB or sign anyone other than cheap roster fodder. Remember we also have Myers, Dreesen, and Foster to re-sign. Hell yes you re-sign Allen.

Of course you would keep Allen. I was asking "Why take a CB in the 4th round?".
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Old 01-20-2012   #16
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Default Re: Jason Allen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
Why?

On the roster we have these guys (assuming they all come back)

Jonathan Joseph, 1st round
Kareem Jackson, 1st round
Jason Allen, 1st round
Brandon Harris, 2nd round
Brice McCain, 6th round
Sherrick McManis, 5th round
Torri Williams, UDFA
Roc Carmichael, 4th round

None of them are particularly old or lousy. At least not since Kareem started playing up to his potential. Maybe use a 5th or 6th on somebody but I'd prefer we go offense as much as possible this draft. Picks 1-4 should be WR, G/T, WR, and G/T in no particular order unless somebody drops to us who we can't believe we have a shot at.

But I wouldn't waste a 1-4 pick on defensive backs just to provide more competition. We have plenty of competition at the position right now.
I agree with you on positions of need and like your thoughts on how you would draft.

But the talent at CB is really deep this yr. If a CB like Cliff Harris/Josh Robinson/Iloka is available you would have to take one of them as they represent BPA and should be better than all of the CB's not named JoJo.

Iloka would be a major upgrade over Demps at S and he can play CB as well. The Texans could use depth at S. IMHO
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Old 01-20-2012   #17
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Default Re: Jason Allen

If you say we should re-sign him, please specify who we should cut to make room for him.

Before the season started, I thought McCain was a goner... but he has looked really nice defending that slot position.

I think the only two reasonable guys we drop are Roc or McManis. None of us has gotten a good look at Roc, so hard for us to comment on him.

We have too many guys to re-sign, and every dollar will count, that's why I think Allen won't be back.
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Old 01-20-2012   #18
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Default Re: Jason Allen

I'd be surprised if he's not brought back at a reasonable price. He's not stupid, he knows Houston is the best spot for him.
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Old 01-21-2012   #19
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Default Re: Jason Allen

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Originally Posted by dream_team View Post
If you say we should re-sign him, please specify who we should cut to make room for him.

Before the season started, I thought McCain was a goner... but he has looked really nice defending that slot position.

I think the only two reasonable guys we drop are Roc or McManis. None of us has gotten a good look at Roc, so hard for us to comment on him.

We have too many guys to re-sign, and every dollar will count, that's why I think Allen won't be back.
IF this franchise wants to go into next season and have a chance to win a superbowl then you need to stick with what works. And Allen/Jackson worked, Allen will be cheap to keep here. And i just dont think that the FO trust KJ to take the full load of the #2 CB position. Allen will be back.
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Old 01-21-2012   #20
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Default Re: Jason Allen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
Why?

On the roster we have these guys (assuming they all come back)

Jonathan Joseph, 1st round
Kareem Jackson, 1st round
Jason Allen, 1st round
Brandon Harris, 2nd round
Brice McCain, 6th round
Sherrick McManis, 5th round
Torri Williams, UDFA
Roc Carmichael, 4th round

None of them are particularly old or lousy.
I agree with this.

We have 2 options:

1. Stick with the status quo of the roster. Adding a mid-level pick would be redundant and unnecessary. A mid-level talent isn't likely to beat out any of what we have, and will clog the roster.

2. Add a high-level talent either through a first round pick or through free agency. This player would immediately come in as the CB2 (the second biggest need behind WR2, IMO).

I would go the route of #2. That would give you:
CB1: Joseph
CB2: FA/1st rd pick
Nickel: McCain
Jackson/Harris/McMannis/Williams/Carmichael to fight for the last 2 or 3 spots
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