Mario and Barwin vs Barwin and Reed

[The Cush]

Originally Posted by dalemurphy

Mario has not developed the pass rushing moves of Freeney, Mathis, Woodley, Harrison, KVB, Cliff Avril, Julius Peppers, Jason Babin, or another 20 guys I could name that are outside rushers. He can't dip his shoulder and turn the corner sharply on a speed rusher. He has no spin move. He doesn't really have a counter to the inside. After six years, he can do two things: he can get to the outside shoulder of the blocker with speed and beat his outside half with strength and get to the QB. Or, he can bull rush. That's really it. Still, he's pretty darn good when he's playing with energy. At times, he can be great. However, combine his inability to drop into coverage effectively, and those are not the skills of a premier OLB.

Mario had 5 sacks in 4.25 games, who cares if he only has "2 moves" if those 2 moves work? You also bring up guys like Freeney and Mathis, and even Jason Babin who plays a Wide 9 technique, those guys are 1 dimentional pass rushers and even with their extensive toolbox of moves, it doesn't help them play the run. Mario was picking up the sacks AND effectively playing the run and you talk about how you want a well-rounded OLB. He's also only played the position for only so many months and was constantly improving, but you keep making referencing that he plays with low energy.

Wade Phillips said that Demarcus Ware only dropped back into coverage like 5% of his entire snaps. Why would you want your premier pass rusher dropping back into coverage? Just because it looks cool having them step up to the line then drop back where their game is less effective? Have you seen James Harrison and Terrell Suggs drop back into coverage? It's not pretty nor is it effective, for them or the entire team to play away from their strengths. Why exactly would this team need to disguise which OLB was coming anyways, when they were among the league leaders of getting to the quarterback? Teams knew who was coming and couldn't stop our rush, that's the bottom line that seems to elude you.

Brooks Reed has been pretty non-existent this season but that's OK because apparently he can effectively drop back into coverage, something I haven't seen yet. He picked up a sack against the Titans after the QB held the ball for 15 seconds. Brooks MIGHT be a more well-rounded OLB, but that doesn't matter if he's just OK in every category.

Judging a 3-4's primary rush linebacker on their coverage skills is like judging Darrelle Revis or Ed Reed on their ability to blitz the quarterback. It's just nitpicking

[Texans_Chick]

FWIW, check out this info from 10/27:

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog...irst-rounders/

"With Mario Williams going down, Brooks Reed (-0.2) had some big shoes to fill. You can’t expect the second rounder to replicate what Williams can do, but look at these numbers; Williams picked up 24 combined sacks, hits and pressures on his 126 pass rushes. Reed has eight on 115 rushes. That kind of disparity may come back to haunt the Texans."

PFF's numbers are not the be-all, end-all, but are pretty interesting.

The biggest concern I have is that as playmakers go down, it reduces flexibility and margin for error. Sometimes as backups get more snaps, it exposes their weaknesses and just increases their opportunity for injury.

In other words, we need to wrap the remaining OLB's in bubble wrap.

[mussop]

Originally Posted by Texans_Chick

FWIW, check out this info from 10/27:

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog...irst-rounders/



PFF's numbers are not the be-all, end-all, but are pretty interesting.
.

Ok you're going to e plain to me where the hell they got these numbers from. How has Reed who only has 2 starts under his belt have 115 rushes already while mostly playing the strong side while Mario has 124 in 4.2 games? The numbers don't add up.

Not to mention they obviously don't realize it's Barwin they need to be comparing Mario's numbers with since he is actually the one that took Mario's position over.

If they/ you want a real comparison they need to match up what Barwin has done since the move compared to Mario and what Reed has don compared to what Barwin did before the move. Until the do that their numbers are a waste of time looking at.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by mussop

If they/ you want a real comparison they need to match up what Barwin has done since the move compared to Mario and what Reed has don compared to what Barwin did before the move. Until the do that their numbers are a waste of time looking at.

I'd like to see comparison numbers of the entire front 5, with & without Mario.

[mussop]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

I'd like to see comparison numbers of the entire front 5, with & without Mario.

YES!! This also!

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by mussop

Ok you're going to e plain to me where the hell they got these numbers from. How has Reed who only has 2 starts under his belt have 115 rushes already while mostly playing the strong side while Mario has 124 in 4.2 games? The numbers don't add up.

Not to mention they obviously don't realize it's Barwin they need to be comparing Mario's numbers with since he is actually the one that took Mario's position over.

If they/ you want a real comparison they need to match up what Barwin has done since the move compared to Mario and what Reed has don compared to what Barwin did before the move. Until the do that their numbers are a waste of time looking at.

It's not a true comparison, TK; but I can believe the number of rushes accounted for.

Reed had played since game one (for a total of 7 games) while Mario only played 4.2 games.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

It's not a true comparison, TK; but I can believe the number of rushes accounted for.

Reed had played since game one (for a total of 7 games) while Mario only played 4.2 games.

The numbers looked a little fishy to me too, but you are probably right...

And it's not talking about the number of snaps it's just talking about pass plays..

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by Rey

The numbers looked a little fishy to me too, but you are probably right...

And it's not talking about the number of snaps it's just talking about pass plays..

Basically, we played mostly with Mario, Barwin, and Reed as OLBs before Mario got hurt.

After that, Barwin and Reed received a lot of snaps (and therefore, pass rushes).

[mussop]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

It's not a true comparison, TK; but I can believe the number of rushes accounted for.

Reed had played since game one (for a total of 7 games) while Mario only played 4.2 games.

I still dont believe he numbers are right. Mario started 4 games and played most of the first quarter of th raiders game. You're telling me Reed in relief duty in those first 4 games and one quarter (if he played any snaps in that quarter) and in the last 2 games playing the strong side (which doesn't rush much) he has accumulated only 9 less total rush attempts than Mario who rushes nearly every snap?

I'm just finding it hard to believe. However tennessee did throw the ball alot but dam.

[mussop]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

I'd like to see comparison numbers of the entire front 5, with & without Mario.

Actually make it the front seven.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by mussop

Actually make it the front seven.

I know they work as a group, but I'm really interested in the "DL" at the moment.

The front seven numbers would also be nice to see, but for different reasons.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by mussop

I still dont believe he numbers are right. Mario started 4 games and played most of the first quarter of th raiders game. You're telling me Reed in relief duty in those first 4 games and one quarter (if he played any snaps in that quarter) and in the last 2 games playing the strong side (which doesn't rush much) he has accumulated only 9 less total rush attempts than Mario who rushes nearly every snap?

I'm just finding it hard to believe. However tennessee did throw the ball alot but dam.

Obviously, we have to go back and look at all of the plays.
What I can tell you is that I took screen shots of every defensive plays of the first four games.
I didn't count them, but I did notice that Reed was in there quite a bit.

He spelled both Mario and Barwin (ie., he played both SAM and WILL).

And let's not forget that both OLBs can rush on the same play.
The SS or the MIKE would pick up the TE in that case.

[leebigeztx]

Originally Posted by mussop

I still dont believe he numbers are right. Mario started 4 games and played most of the first quarter of th raiders game. You're telling me Reed in relief duty in those first 4 games and one quarter (if he played any snaps in that quarter) and in the last 2 games playing the strong side (which doesn't rush much) he has accumulated only 9 less total rush attempts than Mario who rushes nearly every snap?

I'm just finding it hard to believe. However tennessee did throw the ball alot but dam.

Of course not, but from following pff, they do more than their share of homework. They put out legit numbers and when they put out the truth, its normally the truth like greg cossell.

[mussop]

Originally Posted by leebigeztx

Of course not, but from following pff, they do more than their share of homework. They put out legit numbers and when they put out the truth, its normally the truth like greg cossell.

Ill take your word for it, it just seems unlikely. Still it's not a good way to look at the situation. Reed is not replacing Mario, Barwin is.

[dalemurphy]

Originally Posted by Mr teX

I don't understand your point at all. #1, When you're the teams premier rusher, offenses assume you're coming 98% of the time anyway b/c.......what for it.......that is what you do. & in that regard, extra attention is going to be paid to you no matter what you do. How many times have we heard from qb's & coaches in the pre-game "we must know where insert name here is at all times...."

2nd, who cares if he doesn't have a bevy of moves to get to the qb....by your own admission he's still damn good getting there with his "limited" moves. Stop getting preoccupied with how pretty he looks. Just like u guys like to say with Kubiak, the only thing that matters is the results...& the results say for mario that he's gotten there more than anyone for the texans in years past.....& judging by how he started out this year, he was likely going to continue that trend................at OLB.

Going by your rationale, i guess Ware isn't as good as everyone says he is b/c the scheme is set up for him to do the damage he does.....his spin move is also not that great either.

The only criticism I have ever made of Mario is that he underachieves. He could be great, and other than the last 12 games of 2007 and all of 2008, he hasn't been great.


Since he was injured, I have not been trying to criticize him. All I am saying is that the defense can be successful without out him (barring further injuries at key positions)... While the team loses something in the pass rush with Reed in his place, I'm making the argument that they gain something as well and that Wade Phillips can maximize what Reed offers in a way that will be productive for the defense.

I wish you would stop perpetuating this myth that Mario Williams often saw double teams this year. I know he saw a lot of them in 2008 and 2009. I'm talking about this season. This season he was almost never double-teamed.

[Rey]

Mario was double teamed often on pass plays. Not sure how anyone can Watch the game and deny that.

[Ole Miss Texan]

Originally Posted by Rey

Mario was double teamed often on pass plays. Not sure how anyone can Watch the game and deny that.

They still find a way...

[dalemurphy]

Originally Posted by Rey

Mario was double teamed often on pass plays. Not sure how anyone can Watch the game and deny that.

Not this year, he wasn't.

By the way, three of his sacks were in one on one situations against a TE. He should be credited for making the plays when the opportunity was there, but he wasn't beating double teams to make plays this year... Or, for that matter, was he matching up against elite tackles and beating them.

Connor Barwin, however, schooled Jake Long for one of his sacks.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by dalemurphy

Not this year, he wasn't.

By the way, three of his sacks were in one on one situations against a TE. He should be credited for making the plays when the opportunity was there, but he wasn't beating double teams to make plays this year... Or, for that matter, was he matching up against elite tackles and beating them.

Connor Barwin, however, schooled Jake Long for one of his sacks.

Yes, this year he was.


Go back and watch the games. I can't remember the team, but they were blocking him in layers...One guy would get his shot at him, then if/when Mario got past him another guy would be waiting...It wasn't a traditional double team, but he was being doubled nonetheless...

I understand that you don't care for Mario, but I don't think you are looking at him objectively.

In the pre-season Reeds got sacks against (1) air, (2) a RB...Other than that he hasn't done much of anything of note...He isn't strong enough right now and his quickness and speed are not enough to compensate...

[The Cush]

Originally Posted by Rey

Yes, this year he was.


Go back and watch the games. I can't remember the team, but they were blocking him in layers...One guy would get his shot at him, then if/when Mario got past him another guy would be waiting...It wasn't a traditional double team, but he was being doubled nonetheless...

I understand that you don't care for Mario, but I don't think you are looking at him objectively.

In the pre-season Reeds got sacks against (1) air, (2) a RB...Other than that he hasn't done much of anything of note...He isn't strong enough right now and his quickness and speed are not enough to compensate...

That was the Saints game. Mario would line up opposite the TE, then they would motion the TE over have him block him with the tackle standing behind him to pick him up. They also used the RB to chip Mario, and only Mario I believe. There was even one play where they stunted the tackle with one of their Pro-Bowl guards to block Mario. One of my posts after that game even marked almost every play they used multiple people to block him.

And of course he isn't looking at it objectively. Dalemurphy wants to discredit 3 of Mario's sacks because they went against TE's and give infinite credit to Connor Barwin for beating Jake Long for 1 of his total of 2 sacks in almost 3 more games. Wasn't it Mario that beat one of those tackles, maybe even Jake Long, and hit Chad Henne's hand to cause a Johnathon Joseph interception? Speaking of Barwin, when Mario was playing he would always lineup with the TE so he got his fair shair of 1 on 1 TE matchups. Seems like he has struggled with that as well. And a number of those hits Barwin got on the Ravens were because the linemen didn't know what they were doing and were letting him go untouched into the backfield.