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Old 10-26-2011   #61
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Default Re: Mario and Barwin vs Barwin and Reed

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Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
I hope it is possible to keep Mario Williams. I think he was heading for DeMarcus Ware type numbers and effect. I think Mario + Barwin + Reed ( + Watt + Smith + Cushing) is going to be an impossible problem for offenses in the next couple of years if we can keep it together.
I like Demeco, & I think he'll be back to 100% or close to it soon. But lets say he's not.

Do you think Reed can move inside when Mario comes back next year? What about Brahman?
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Old 10-26-2011   #62
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Default Re: Mario and Barwin vs Barwin and Reed

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Originally Posted by The Cush View Post
This is the classic undersell of Mario. Everything he has done is because the guys lined up across for him are bad or are injured. Just give the man his credit when credit is due.

And how you are so sure that a combo of Brooks Reed and Connor Barwin will be "more beneficial" to this team than Barwin/Mario is beyond me, when the reason you feel that way is because of Barwin who happens to be the common variable among the 2 duos? You're basically saying Reed is better than Mario...
I do give him credit where credit is due. I have said Mario plays the run very well. He holds the edge and turns things inside as good as any OLB out there. That is what he does well. Rushing the passer as a speed rusher is not something he does well. He is not quick off the line. In fact he has a terrible habit of taking a false step when he was rushing from the standup position. Although he was improving on that he still hadn't totally fixed it.

Like I have said all along, he needs to be inside playing DE where he could dominate less talented Guards like what Smith does. But I forgot, the only reason Smith does that is because teams are so scared of Mario that they just ignore all the other players huh?

The reason I believe Barwin and Reed will be better is (once again) because now teams won't be able to predict where the rush is going to come from as easy. And the combo both have the skill set to beat their blockers off the line adding another element for QB's to fear.
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Old 10-26-2011   #63
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Default Re: Mario and Barwin vs Barwin and Reed

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This is a joke & pure haterade-sipping.... especially the bolded mainly b/c there is absolutely nothing that has been seen or done on the field thus far that has indicated this is quite possible.

2nd, the things you're knocking Mario on, Barwin was on the field opposite of him playing against the same not-so good / banged up OL too & dude still wasn't even really a factor.

Furthermore, when someone is being as "disruptive" as you claim Barwin has been all along, it usually translates into stats in some kind of way, Barwin is no where in any meaningful kind of stat thus far this year....period.

It's pretty obvious to everyone except you that Mario being on the field makes us better, but whatever, you can keep on being the smartest guy in the room....i'll roll with Wade on this one.
Barwin was on the opposite side of Mario playing a completely different role. I guess you don't understand that Mario was coming 98% of the time while Barwin was in coverage or taking on other responsibilities.

These responsibilities also contribute to lower stats just as Mario's lack of them contributes to him getting more. And I never wanted Mario off the field to begin with. I just wanted him playing where his talents would be most benificial to the team, DE.
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Old 10-26-2011   #64
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Default Re: Mario and Barwin vs Barwin and Reed

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Originally Posted by fiasco west View Post
The best part about Mario is that you can tell the oline he's coming and they can do nothing about it. You don't even have to disguise or hide him...

Also I don't see the same games you see where Mario doesn't show up. I'm guessing you are talking about games he didn't have a sack though.
You love Mario don't you?
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Old 10-26-2011   #65
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Default Re: Mario and Barwin vs Barwin and Reed

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I do give him credit where credit is due. I have said Mario plays the run very well. He holds the edge and turns things inside as good as any OLB out there. That is what he does well. Rushing the passer as a speed rusher is not something he does well. He is not quick off the line. In fact he has a terrible habit of taking a false step when he was rushing from the standup position. Although he was improving on that he still hadn't totally fixed it.

Like I have said all along, he needs to be inside playing DE where he could dominate less talented Guards like what Smith does. But I forgot, the only reason Smith does that is because teams are so scared of Mario that they just ignore all the other players huh?

The reason I believe Barwin and Reed will be better is (once again) because now teams won't be able to predict where the rush is going to come from as easy. And the combo both have the skill set to beat their blockers off the line adding another element for QB's to fear.
I don't know about you but 5 sacks in 4.25 games showed to me that he was really committed to learning that OLB position. It's a shame he got hurt because he really was steadily improving as the weeks went on and was in for a big season.

And I've said it before and I'll say it again, Smith has been beasting it this year and deserves all the credit in the world for his play. I believe Mario makes everyone better but I also believe guys like Antonio and Cushing, etc. deserve their own credit because at the end of the day they still have to put up results and that's on them. I'm not going to undersell players like Mario and say he's gone against trash or Antonio and say he's a product of other players, that's just slapping players in the face based on how you want to perceive things
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Old 10-26-2011   #66
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Mario was playing from a 3pt a lot.

Why are folks acting brand new?

Folks keep comparing him to reed and then in the next breath acknowledge they are playing different roles?

I keep hearing all these attributes/skill sets about reed and barwin and other more nimble but that says nothing about effectiveness. I dont know how Mario was going to do over the course of the season, but through the few games he played in he was very good overall.

Funny how the tone has changed from Mario sucking at lb to thinking others are more suited for the role. Gotta find a way to be right I guess.
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Old 10-26-2011   #67
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Default Re: Mario and Barwin vs Barwin and Reed

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You love Mario don't you?
Wait Wait let me put on my glasses first..

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Old 10-26-2011   #68
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Default Re: Mario and Barwin vs Barwin and Reed

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
I like Demeco, & I think he'll be back to 100% or close to it soon. But lets say he's not.

Do you think Reed can move inside when Mario comes back next year? What about Brahman?
If any of our OLBs could play MLB, it's Barwin. However, Sharpton would get that spot if Demeco is gone. Dudes a beast. I could see a depth guy or too as well. No one is getting Cush of the field, short of a piss test. He is the leader of our D now, IMO
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Old 10-26-2011   #69
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Default Re: Mario and Barwin vs Barwin and Reed

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
I do give him credit where credit is due. I have said Mario plays the run very well. He holds the edge and turns things inside as good as any OLB out there. That is what he does well. Rushing the passer as a speed rusher is not something he does well. He is not quick off the line. In fact he has a terrible habit of taking a false step when he was rushing from the standup position. Although he was improving on that he still hadn't totally fixed it.

Like I have said all along, he needs to be inside playing DE where he could dominate less talented Guards like what Smith does. But I forgot, the only reason Smith does that is because teams are so scared of Mario that they just ignore all the other players huh?

The reason I believe Barwin and Reed will be better is (once again) because now teams won't be able to predict where the rush is going to come from as easy. And the combo both have the skill set to beat their blockers off the line adding another element for QB's to fear.

teams are always going to pay more attention to the most dangerous pass rusher unless they felt like their guys could handle them 1 on 1. even if the guy opposite him is pretty good. freeney's the main guy for indy, but u know what, mathis isn't too shabby either. but who do u think teams are gonna pay more attention to?

& u know another way to make the rush more unpredictable? if other guys around mario stepped up from the positions wade had them playing already. that was happening when mario was on the field....not as much now that he's been out. there's no way u can explain that away, other than his prescence required more attention.


& blinding speed is not the only ingredient to rushing the passer dude...how many guys have been drafted over the years to rush the passer b/ c they have "speed off the edge" only to flame out in the nfl for 1 reason or another?
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Old 10-26-2011   #70
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Default Re: Mario and Barwin vs Barwin and Reed

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I know this will get laughed at but I think the combo of Reed and Barwin is going to be better than the combo of Mario and Barwin. Now we have legit speed off the edge's which is going to force QB's to step up more. Barwin had a very disruptive game this week and Reed played very comparable to what Barwin was producing when Mario was opposite him.
Really. Mario is pretty damn quick plus he has the mixture of power to go along with his speed. I have to kindly disagree with you. Not only is mario fast and strong, he demands more attention than reed ever will and gives all the other D-Line guys opportunities.
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Old 10-27-2011   #71
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Default Re: Mario and Barwin vs Barwin and Reed

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
Mario was playing from a 3pt a lot.

Why are folks acting brand new?

Folks keep comparing him to reed and then in the next breath acknowledge they are playing different roles?

I keep hearing all these attributes/skill sets about reed and barwin and other more nimble but that says nothing about effectiveness. I dont know how Mario was going to do over the course of the season, but through the few games he played in he was very good overall.

Funny how the tone has changed from Mario sucking at lb to thinking others are more suited for the role. Gotta find a way to be right I guess.
The "nimbleness" you mention allows for more disguise from the defense which causes more confusion for the opposing quarterback. The fact that Mario was playing from a 3 point stance only highlights this point. The Texans were declaring who the fourth rusher was going to be way more often than they do now.

Mario doesn't suck. I don't know that I have seen anyone say that he does. Mario doesn't stay healthy. Mario doesn't always come to play. Mario's motor isn't anything like Antonio Smith's. Mario gets paid too much. Mario is a better suited to play the 5 technique than OLB.

I wish he was healthy. My point, after the injury, was that the Texans (barring further injuries) would be able to continue to play good defense without him and that there were others on the team that would be a much greater loss. I had created a list that agitated people of such players:

Matt Schaub
Arian Foster
Andre Johnson
Duane Brown
Eric Winston
Chris Myers
Antonio Smith
Brian Cushing
J.J. Watt

perhaps the following as well:

Connor Barwin
Wade Smith
Danieal Manning
James Casey
Demeco Ryans


That's not a list of players that are "better". It is a list of players that are more crucial to the success of the 2011 Texans. For instance, Winston needs to stay healthy because Butler is on the I.R. and Newton is his backup. James Casey is valuable because he is vastly better than Vickers and offers a set of skills at the position that the Texans can utilize when teams attempt to shutdown AJ and the running game (see N. Orleans game).
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Old 10-27-2011   #72
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Default Re: Mario and Barwin vs Barwin and Reed

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teams are always going to pay more attention to the most dangerous pass rusher unless they felt like their guys could handle them 1 on 1. even if the guy opposite him is pretty good. freeney's the main guy for indy, but u know what, mathis isn't too shabby either. but who do u think teams are gonna pay more attention to?

& u know another way to make the rush more unpredictable? if other guys around mario stepped up from the positions wade had them playing already. that was happening when mario was on the field....not as much now that he's been out. there's no way u can explain that away, other than his prescence required more attention.


& blinding speed is not the only ingredient to rushing the passer dude...how many guys have been drafted over the years to rush the passer b/ c they have "speed off the edge" only to flame out in the nfl for 1 reason or another?

Mario has not developed the pass rushing moves of Freeney, Mathis, Woodley, Harrison, KVB, Cliff Avril, Julius Peppers, Jason Babin, or another 20 guys I could name that are outside rushers. He can't dip his shoulder and turn the corner sharply on a speed rusher. He has no spin move. He doesn't really have a counter to the inside. After six years, he can do two things: he can get to the outside shoulder of the blocker with speed and beat his outside half with strength and get to the QB. Or, he can bull rush. That's really it. Still, he's pretty darn good when he's playing with energy. At times, he can be great. However, combine his inability to drop into coverage effectively, and those are not the skills of a premier OLB.

Regarding pressure since Mario has been out: the Texans pressured Flacco a great deal. They didn't get much pressure on Tennessee but that was Tennessee scheme (max protection) that caused that. Plus, the Texans were committed to stopping the run first.

Finally, the idea that Mario was attracting so much attention from the opposing team is a myth. Schematically, he was lined up on the side without a TE. The Texans system was designed to put him where he could have 1 on 1 matchups. They did this because the OLB on the strong side needs to be able to drop into coverage sometimes and Mario can't do that effectively. Also, since everyone on the planet knows he is going to rush every play, they would keep him on the side of the defense that would be most effective for that single purpose.
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Old 10-27-2011   #73
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Default Re: Mario and Barwin vs Barwin and Reed

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Finally, the idea that Mario was attracting so much attention from the opposing team is a myth. Schematically, he was lined up on the side without a TE. The Texans system was designed to put him where he could have 1 on 1 matchups. They did this because the OLB on the strong side needs to be able to drop into coverage sometimes and Mario can't do that effectively. Also, since everyone on the planet knows he is going to rush every play, they would keep him on the side of the defense that would be most effective for that single purpose.
I don't get this. Because Wade Phillips designed the defense to free up pass rushers to get to the QB, this is somehow a knock on Williams? Had Williams not gotten to the QB, then yeah, that would've looked bad. But that's not what happened.

The Texans will keep Mario Williams. Either via the franchise tag, or to a long term contract. Reed is not as good as Williams. Barwin is not as good as Williams. So, how can Barwin & Reed be better than Williams and either Barwin or Reed? There's your "myth".
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Old 10-27-2011   #74
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Default Re: Mario and Barwin vs Barwin and Reed

Bottom line,

Antonio was playing better over the first 3 games. (Colts, Dolphins, New Orleans)

He has not been playing as well since (Raiders, Pittsburgh,Baltimore, Tennessee)

I've mentioned the improvement in opponent over the last 4 games as a possible reason.

I've mentioned the drop off in our opponents over the next three games (Jacksonville, Cleveland, Tampa Bay) as an opportunity to see what's what.

I personally think Antonio needs to step up & be that force that allows the other guys to get free. Some people think he's already playing at that level.

We'll see.
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Old 10-27-2011   #75
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Default Re: Mario and Barwin vs Barwin and Reed

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The "nimbleness" you mention allows for more disguise from the defense which causes more confusion for the opposing quarterback.
No it doesn't. IMO.

Mario doesn't have to be as nimble as Reed to be dropped into coverage. You can still disguise your defense.........if we wanted to.....

But you keep talking about Wade's defense like it's the old Patriots defense...

He uses one OLB to rush the majority of the time...Right now that OLB is Barwin.

Barwin is the new Mario and Reed is the old Barwin.
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Old 10-27-2011   #76
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Default Re: Mario and Barwin vs Barwin and Reed

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Mario has not developed the pass rushing moves of Freeney, Mathis, Woodley, Harrison, KVB, Cliff Avril, Julius Peppers, Jason Babin, or another 20 guys I could name that are outside rushers. He can't dip his shoulder and turn the corner sharply on a speed rusher. He has no spin move. He doesn't really have a counter to the inside. After six years, he can do two things: he can get to the outside shoulder of the blocker with speed and beat his outside half with strength and get to the QB. Or, he can bull rush. That's really it. Still, he's pretty darn good when he's playing with energy. At times, he can be great. However, combine his inability to drop into coverage effectively, and those are not the skills of a premier OLB.

Regarding pressure since Mario has been out: the Texans pressured Flacco a great deal. They didn't get much pressure on Tennessee but that was Tennessee scheme (max protection) that caused that. Plus, the Texans were committed to stopping the run first.

Finally, the idea that Mario was attracting so much attention from the opposing team is a myth. Schematically, he was lined up on the side without a TE. The Texans system was designed to put him where he could have 1 on 1 matchups. They did this because the OLB on the strong side needs to be able to drop into coverage sometimes and Mario can't do that effectively. Also, since everyone on the planet knows he is going to rush every play, they would keep him on the side of the defense that would be most effective for that single purpose.

I don't understand your point at all. #1, When you're the teams premier rusher, offenses assume you're coming 98% of the time anyway b/c.......what for it.......that is what you do. & in that regard, extra attention is going to be paid to you no matter what you do. How many times have we heard from qb's & coaches in the pre-game "we must know where insert name here is at all times...."

2nd, who cares if he doesn't have a bevy of moves to get to the qb....by your own admission he's still damn good getting there with his "limited" moves. Stop getting preoccupied with how pretty he looks. Just like u guys like to say with Kubiak, the only thing that matters is the results...& the results say for mario that he's gotten there more than anyone for the texans in years past.....& judging by how he started out this year, he was likely going to continue that trend................at OLB.

Going by your rationale, i guess Ware isn't as good as everyone says he is b/c the scheme is set up for him to do the damage he does.....his spin move is also not that great either.
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Old 10-27-2011   #77
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Default Re: Mario and Barwin vs Barwin and Reed

For the money, I would much rather see Arian signed to a longterm deal and get a competent #2 WR with the money that would otherwise be spent re-signing Mario. I don't see him getting less than 9 mill a year guaranteed + incentives.
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Old 10-27-2011   #78
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Default Re: Mario and Barwin vs Barwin and Reed

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
For the money, I would much rather see Arian signed to a longterm deal and get a competent #2 WR with the money that would otherwise be spent re-signing Mario. I don't see him getting less than 9 mill a year guaranteed + incentives.
I'd rather re-sign Mario and Arian and Draft a #2.
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Old 10-27-2011   #79
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Default Re: Mario and Barwin vs Barwin and Reed

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I don't understand your point at all. #1, When you're the teams premier rusher, offenses assume you're coming 98% of the time anyway b/c.......what for it.......that is what you do. & in that regard, extra attention is going to be paid to you no matter what you do. How many times have we heard from qb's & coaches in the pre-game "we must know where insert name here is at all times...."
That's just part of the propaganda, hyping up the myth that teams don't view Mario as a threat. Those QB's, offensive linemen, TV analysts, and coaches, the ones that break down every single snap, they don't know what they are talking about apparently....
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Old 10-27-2011   #80
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Default Re: Mario and Barwin vs Barwin and Reed

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Originally Posted by BigBull17 View Post
However, Sharpton would get that spot if Demeco is gone. Dudes a beast.
I heard on speculation on the radio that Sharpton could be starter on some teams right now.
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