The "Elite-ness" of Schaub

[dinkatoid]

I think the rings/playoff wins argument sucks, because this is a team game. A QB is really important, but even a top notch QB will falter with a bad team.

I agree with a lot of what I read here saying that he is not elite. I do not think that is bad though, he got shafted by playing along side Peyton and Brady, which is pretty hard to live up to. These are the only 2 I would call elite, as they are surefire hall of fame players.

I think Brees is right there below, but I struggle putting him in the same category as the two above. I would say he is in my "fringe" category so to say. Rodgers also belongs here, as both of these guys could easily move up. I think I will surprise a few and round out my top 5 with Phillip Rivers. The guy puts up incredible numbers even when throwing to guys he doesn't know. Last year was every excuse for him to have a bad year, and he did quite the opposite.

I am on the edge about even putting Big Ben into the "fringe" category, so I kept him one below it. He is definitely a good QB, but he has a few more downsides in my opinion that keep him just below the 3 above. This is the same group I would put Schaub in. He is definitely above average by a decent margin, and top 10 QB in the league, but has a few more downfalls as the guys above.

[dinkatoid]

Originally Posted by HJam72

Frankly, I think Matt really has to win the big one to be considered elite because....well, he's goofy looking.

In that case, even 1 ring wont be enough to save Peyton...

[HJam72]

I just repped a dinkatoid.

[BIG TORO]

Originally Posted by HJam72

I just repped a dinkatoid.

LMAO me too!

[HTown2ATX]

See to me, and maybe I am watering down the term "Elite" which is unintentional, I consider Schaub in the "conversation" as in if you took the top 10 QB's in the league, which I would consider to be "Elte", Schaub would have to be in that list, maybe right at number 10, but on the list none the less.

Now, reserving P. Manning, Brady, etc., only as "Elite" I can understand, but I consider them as currently active HOFers so that is another level entirely of which Schaub is clearly not a part yet.

But to me, "Elite" can be used to described Schaub. So I don't consider "Elite" to only include Brady, P. Manning, etc., I consider it to mean more of like, one of the best in the league, that any other team would scramble to get and would be considered amongst the top 10 starters out of 32. So I guess I maybe use "Elite" more loosely than some.

But I do recognize that Brady, etc, are not only "Elite" but in another class above that by themselves. Hopefully this makes sense to more people than just me.

[TheMatrix31]

Schaub is somewhere around 7 or 8 on my list.

Something like Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Ben, Rivers ahead of him for sure.

[HTown2ATX]

Originally Posted by TheMatrix31

Schaub is somewhere around 7 or 8 on my list.

Something like Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Ben, Rivers ahead of him for sure.

Agreed.

My list (some QB's below #5 could be flip flopped but I'm at work so just threw them down...)

Tom Brady (using rings as a tie breaker but I don't use rings to determine "Elite" ie Dan Marino)
Peyton Manning
Big Ben (YOU spell his last name haha)
Aaron Rodgers
Drew Brees
Matt Ryan
Mike Vick
Matt Schaub
Phillip Rivers
Eli Manning (hey, it was between him and Romo so eff Dallas.....)

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by HTown2ATX

His argument was that Schaub couldn't be considered Eilte as he has not had a playoff win. I refuted this with he hasn't even BEEN there yet which is not on him. I also mentioned that clearly Andre Johnson is Elite and he has never been to the playoffs, etc. So I at least blew his argument up enough that he finally at least conceeded that Schaub is "fringe" Elite.

But, this just got me wondering what other Texans fans thought?

I understand what you're saying about the play-offs. But unfortunately for a QB, wins count. & you get to the play-offs by winning football games.

It's not fair, I know it. But it is what it is.


He's fringe, because we know his production isn't a fluke. He's going to get you 3500+ a season.. around 20 TDs.

All he's got to do now, IMO, is win.

Ω

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by Dutchrudder

Elite QBs in the league:
Manning (the good one)
Brady
Rodgers
Brees


That's it for me. Top 4 out of 32 starters, which is about the top ~10%.

I don't put Rodgers in that category.

For me, the only elites in the league are Peyton, Brady, & Romo......


I'm just kidding about Romo.

Peyton
Brady
Brees

then second Tier in my mind

Rivers
Schaub
Rodgers
Ben


Vick had 1 good year, McNabb had one bad year. I've still got McNabb over Vick in a lower tier.

[silvrhand]

Elite = first time NFL hall of fame ballot.

Elite:
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady

1st Tier:
Big Ben
Aaron Rodgers
Phillip Rivers
Drew Brees

The only thing that keep Matt Schaub out of the 1st tier to me is his arm strength and down the field throws are just really bad..

[BetaV1]

Of course Schaub is elite, and I'm not afraid to say it. It's time that people put that grade school notion of "playoffs wins" and "rings" to rest. You want to call Schaub a choker? Fine. But to suggest that he is not up there with the elite is downright insulting.

At the end of the day, football is a team sport, and everyone has to do their share. Three seasons ago, Drew Brees threw for an insane 5,069 yards, falling just 15 yards short of a new NFL record. Yet much like how Schaub had to deal with the worst defense ever possible last year, so did Brees have to deal with the worst defense. The Saints went 8-8, despite Brees' record year and "elite" status. You put Brees on the Texans last year and does anyone here actually want to make the case that the Texans win more than six games? If you do, well, you know that old saying about a bridge.

Don't get me started on that whole notion of post-season consistency either. Tom Brady has been arguably playing his best football since 2007, and yet that was when he had his last playoff win. Manning has been considered elite for a decade now, and he's got one lousy ring to show for it, which is the same amount of rings of Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer. Meanwhile, you got Mark Sanchez and Joe Flacco consistently getting into the post-season and winning. Why not throw them into the "elite" category while we're at it? (If you do think those two are elite, well... I still got that bridge.)

I'm not sure we can establish a widely accepted definition for "elite," but I will tell you that my definition of it is whether or not a team can continue to fight, battle, and battlefight without said player. If you take Manning off the Colts, they're nothing. You take Adrian Peterson away from the Vikings and they'll be lucky to win more than a few games. I don't know many quarterbacks in this league who could have led the team to so many insane come-from-behind games as Schaub did last year. Sure, he fell short, but if it weren't for him, we wouldn't have even given over half of our opponents the scare that we did. If you take Schaub off the Texans, we're done. End of story. And that's plenty good enough for me to consider him elite.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by BetaV1

Of course Schaub is elite, and I'm not afraid to say it. It's time that people put that grade school notion of "playoffs wins" and "rings" to rest. You want to call Schaub a choker? Fine. But to suggest that he is not up there with the elite is downright insulting.

At the end of the day, football is a team sport, and everyone has to do their share. Three seasons ago, Drew Brees threw for an insane 5,069 yards, falling just 15 yards short of a new NFL record. Yet much like how Schaub had to deal with the worst defense ever possible last year, so did Brees have to deal with the worst defense. The Saints went 8-8, despite Brees' record year and "elite" status. You put Brees on the Texans last year and does anyone here actually want to make the case that the Texans win more than six games? If you do, well, you know that old saying about a bridge.

Don't get me started on that whole notion of post-season consistency either. Tom Brady has been arguably playing his best football since 2007, and yet that was when he had his last playoff win. Manning has been considered elite for a decade now, and he's got one lousy ring to show for it, which is the same amount of rings of Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer. Meanwhile, you got Mark Sanchez and Joe Flacco consistently getting into the post-season and winning. Why not throw them into the "elite" category while we're at it? (If you do think those two are elite, well... I still got that bridge.)

I'm not sure we can establish a widely accepted definition for "elite," but I will tell you that my definition of it is whether or not a team can continue to fight, battle, and battlefight without said player. If you take Manning off the Colts, they're nothing. You take Adrian Peterson away from the Vikings and they'll be lucky to win more than a few games. I don't know many quarterbacks in this league who could have led the team to so many insane come-from-behind games as Schaub did last year. Sure, he fell short, but if it weren't for him, we wouldn't have even given over half of our opponents the scare that we did. If you take Schaub off the Texans, we're done. End of story. And that's plenty good enough for me to consider him elite.

Good post. Almost worthy of rep. But the attitude... I decline.

You see how that works. Yes, Schaub is comparable in several categories to the elites, but the elites have it all. They are deserving... Schaub is fringe.

[2slik4u]

Originally Posted by Tonaaayyyy

Tough. Who's better? Matt Ryan or Matt Schaub?

No question for me. Schaub.

I personally think Matt Ryan is a tad bit over rated.

[2slik4u]

Originally Posted by BetaV1

Of course Schaub is elite, and I'm not afraid to say it. It's time that people put that grade school notion of "playoffs wins" and "rings" to rest. You want to call Schaub a choker? Fine. But to suggest that he is not up there with the elite is downright insulting.

At the end of the day, football is a team sport, and everyone has to do their share. Three seasons ago, Drew Brees threw for an insane 5,069 yards, falling just 15 yards short of a new NFL record. Yet much like how Schaub had to deal with the worst defense ever possible last year, so did Brees have to deal with the worst defense. The Saints went 8-8, despite Brees' record year and "elite" status. You put Brees on the Texans last year and does anyone here actually want to make the case that the Texans win more than six games? If you do, well, you know that old saying about a bridge.

Don't get me started on that whole notion of post-season consistency either. Tom Brady has been arguably playing his best football since 2007, and yet that was when he had his last playoff win. Manning has been considered elite for a decade now, and he's got one lousy ring to show for it, which is the same amount of rings of Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer. Meanwhile, you got Mark Sanchez and Joe Flacco consistently getting into the post-season and winning. Why not throw them into the "elite" category while we're at it? (If you do think those two are elite, well... I still got that bridge.)

I'm not sure we can establish a widely accepted definition for "elite," but I will tell you that my definition of it is whether or not a team can continue to fight, battle, and battlefight without said player. If you take Manning off the Colts, they're nothing. You take Adrian Peterson away from the Vikings and they'll be lucky to win more than a few games. I don't know many quarterbacks in this league who could have led the team to so many insane come-from-behind games as Schaub did last year. Sure, he fell short, but if it weren't for him, we wouldn't have even given over half of our opponents the scare that we did. If you take Schaub off the Texans, we're done. End of story. And that's plenty good enough for me to consider him elite.

Great post.....and for the record, I agree with you. Rep.

[The1ApplePie]

Originally Posted by TEXANRED

I said no. When he starts to win games that matters I may change my mind.

Schaub is an average QB with an elite WR that inflates Schaubs stats.

That's why I call him the white Daunte Culpepper

Fringe for me. I'd put him and Romo in about the same place. Good QB that can win a Super Bowl, but certainly not one of the greats.

[HTown2ATX]

Originally Posted by The1ApplePie

That's why I call him the white Daunte Culpepper

C'mon man....he's better than that

[The1ApplePie]

Originally Posted by HTown2ATX

C'mon man....he's better than that

I don't mean it out of disrespect

Pep was a good QB in his prime, even a complete player. His stats just got bumped in a huge way because of Moss.

In that way, Schaub is the straight Jeff Garcia

[HTown2ATX]

Originally Posted by The1ApplePie

I don't mean it out of disrespect

Pep was a good QB in his prime, even a complete player. His stats just got bumped in a huge way because of Moss.

In that way, Schaub is the straight Jeff Garcia

Lol...I know what you meant. Just thought it was funny....images of him flashed through my head.

[beerlover]

Schaub is a system QB who is tied @ the hip to the success or failure of his head coach, right or wrong. This affliction is not insurmountable given a stronger support group

In regards to specific QB skill set, Schaub has elite leadership ability & game management skills, his height gives him tremendous advantage reading defenses & getting the ball out & though passing lanes. Not as accurate as I would like, especially under pressure, lacks mobility to scramble out of trouble, arm strength is suspect (needs time, hence play-action) with his long launch point, needs to step into throw making him susceptible to big hits/injury so there is durability concern. I like his position @ the top, good release with soft touch making his throws easy to catch

Matt Schaub is one hell of a nice guy but he needs to get have some playoff wins under his belt (Superbowl wouldn't hurt either) & put more pressure/fear into opposing defenses, until then I'm going to have to say fringe

[PockyAF]

Originally Posted by Nawzer

To me an elite qb is someone who has been to the playoffs multiple times and has had success there. I think Schaub is a fringe elite player at this point and unless the Texans experience playoff success, he'll always be a qb that's regarded very highly but not an elite player. Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Big Ben, and Phillip Rivers are the the elite qbs in the league.

You're right, AJ is nowhere near being in the same class as Fitzgerald. I mean the guys been to the Super Bowl for pete's sake. AJ.. we'll he had that one year where we had a winning record.

Wait, he didn't even make the playoffs, so there's no way he can even be talked about as one of the "elites". Someone please tell Bill Cowher he's doing it wrong.

Because everything's rides on playoffs accomplishment, in the ultimate team game.