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View Poll Results: Secondary options you prefer.
Manning and Quinn at Safety/ Joseph and Allen at CB 44 49.44%
Manning and Quinn at Safety/ Joseph and Jackson at CB 28 31.46%
Nolan and Manning at Safety/ Joseph and Quinn at CB 11 12.36%
Manning and Quinn at safety/ Joseph and "rookie" at CB 6 6.74%
Voters: 89. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-04-2011   #61
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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Originally Posted by DocBar View Post
Salary cap comes to mind and I disagree with your assessment of Quin at CB. I think he's definitely a serviceable CB, but would make a much better S. If Gholston was all that, why is he still looking for a job?
Rey, what would make him better at safety than his avg corner skills? Not only that, why take the risk when there were true safeties availible. Again, the texans have so many guys out of position that hope will be used a lot. Build it right, and the hope is out of the equation. Allen is more of a safety than quinn imo.
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Old 08-04-2011   #62
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Rey, what would make him better at safety than his avg corner skills? Not only that, why take the risk when there were true safeties availible. Again, the texans have so many guys out of position that hope will be used a lot. Build it right, and the hope is out of the equation. Allen is more of a safety than quinn imo.
That wasn't me you quoted, but I think Quinn will be a good safety because he will be able to keep the action in front if him.

He will be able to read plays and come down and react. Quinn isn't the most physically gifted db, and corners need a lot more athleticism and agility than safeties.

He's not afraid if contact, hes smart, and he's become a vocal leader in the secondary. Safeties are the qb of the secondary because they can see more and they can more easily communicate with everyone else.

I just think that is a good role for him. It fits him well IMO.
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Old 08-04-2011   #63
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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Rey, what would make him better at safety than his avg corner skills? Not only that, why take the risk when there were true safeties availible. Again, the texans have so many guys out of position that hope will be used a lot. Build it right, and the hope is out of the equation. Allen is more of a safety than quinn imo.
Quin has shown excellent range, ability to read the QB and recognize routes and has shown that he's a big hitter. As 76Texan has illustrated, much of our secondary woes were from poor safety play. Quin is an immediate upgrade over any S on our roster not named Manning, and might be better at certain aspects than Manning. Looking at our 2011 roster, we have some decent choices at #2CB and Quin would benefit from practicing at one position and not be asked to multitask. Other than that, I can't imagine why we would consider moving Quin to safety.
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Old 08-04-2011   #64
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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And you wasted HOW many hours breaking down film to prop up KJ????


EDIT:Please keep in mind that I supported and agree with your breakdown of KJ, but please apply the same criteria across the board when it comes to DB's.
I can guarantee with you that I have an open mind.
(Any bias is only natural, never to the extreme - when it seems so is only due to fighting fire with fire.)

You know, I had analyzed a few games from last year.
I started with the Colts game in week 1.
Then there was a break due to the draft.
After that, I took on the Jets and Titans games (due to Allen).
Then I had to move on to Wade's defense throughout the years.

Not until lately that I learned to post screen shots.

Then came the UDFA and the FA signings.
Even as I can tell you that I watch football like almost 360 days out of the year (for the last four years), there was just not enough time for one person.

I was able (semi-forced) to have some time away from "real" work for over two years. I get up watching football and go to sleep watching football (earphones on.)
I traveled here and there, including Asia, with a portable drive full of football games. Obviously, I watched it (football) during the transcontinental flight.
I watched the Senior Bowl, followed Texanstalk and stuff like that anywhere on the road.
I would take my wife shopping, drop her off at the mall and sit in the parking lot or in a coffehouse like Starbucks and watch football.

When you spend that much time on football, it is not to prove that you're right (if anything, it only proves that you're extremely stupid.)

I had wanted to go back to the Jets game (with Allen on board) now that I can actually show people what I was talking about.

That will be in respond to Fico.
Even though I had analyzed the play in my game analysis posts, the fact was still lost in translation.
(Bryant Gumbel and Dan Diedorff missed it BADLY, what else can I say.)

Nobody even talked about Nolan on that play, because he was too far from it.
Jackson was blamed (by either Gumble or Dierdoff) just because he was closest to the play. Crazy!

I can also see why fans just watching it on the TV screen can come to the same conclusion, easily!
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Old 08-04-2011   #65
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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I can guarantee with you that I have an open mind.
(Any bias is only natural, never to the extreme - when it seems so is only due to fighting fire with fire.)

You know, I had analyzed a few games from last year.
I started with the Colts game in week 1.
Then there was a break due to the draft.
After that, I took on the Jets and Titans games (due to Allen).
Then I had to move on to Wade's defense throughout the years.

Not until lately that I learned to post screen shots.

Then came the UDFA and the FA signings.
Even as I can tell you that I watch football like almost 360 days out of the year (for the last four years), there was just not enough time for one person.

I was able (semi-forced) to have some time away from "real" work for over two years. I get up watching football and go to sleep watching football (earphones on.)
I traveled here and there, including Asia, with a portable drive full of football games. Obviously, I watched it (football) during the transcontinental flight.
I watched the Senior Bowl, followed Texanstalk and stuff like that anywhere on the road.
I would take my wife shopping, drop her off at the mall and sit in the parking lot or in a coffehouse like Starbucks and watch football.

When you spend that much time on football, it is not to prove that you're right (if anything, it only proves that you're extremely stupid.)

I had wanted to go back to the Jets game (with Allen on board) now that I can actually show people what I was talking about.

That will be in respond to Fico.
Even though I had analyzed the play in my game analysis posts, the fact was still lost in translation.
(Bryant Gumbel and Dan Diedorff missed it BADLY, what else can I say.)

Nobody even talked about Nolan on that play, because he was too far from it.
Jackson was blamed (by either Gumble or Dierdoff) just because he was closest to the play. Crazy!

I can also see why fans just watching it on the TV screen can come to the same conclusion, easily!
Don't go getting all butthurt. I said I agree with you on KJ and I love reading your breakdowns. You do get a little biased sometimes, but who doesn't. Keep up the good work.
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Old 08-05-2011   #66
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

I still don't think quinn at safety is a good idea. He gave up just as many yard as jackson did, 924 last year. Now I have also said this years ago, pass defense is more than corners play. Now having good corners do help, but as I talked about, 3 level defense is what makes a defense good. If a team is weak or suspect in 1 of those level, they better be expceptional in the other 2. Its easy to use pittsburgh because they have been great for so long on defense. Its also easy to use baltimore because they're similar to pittsburgh. I can use a team in the division who do don't have a great defense overrall, but has a very god pass defense and that's indy.

As much as people bash indy about their defense for getting run on, they have been one of the best defenses in the league in terms of pass td's allowed. Even when we consder points allowed they're pretty good. Now, tbeir defense get a lot of plays because teams can run on them,control the clock, and keep payton off the field, but as I mentioned, pass td allowed is very,very important in a passing league. When I talked about the levels of defense, think about their 3 levels and tell me where they're weak at?

Freeny and mathis on the line, bracket in the middle, and bathea and now bullitt at saftey. Playing that cover 2 shell allowed them to be top of the league in terms of pass td allowed. Freeney and mathis bringing cnsistent pressure. Even when they didn't get sacks, they got knock down,strips, and just plain pressure. On that same string, bracket and the other lbs would close those windows inside the middle of the field off. They squeezed all the inside slants and quick passes which made the qb hold the ball and come of his 1st or 2nd read. Playing off of that was bethea,sanders(when healthy), and the other corners. Sanders when healthy was the dpoy because he could be deep half and then buzz into the box. He had great read and recognition along with great speed. Bethea is that way and that's why he is one of the best safeties in the game. So even with the average corners, they had great safeties, a great pass rush, and their lbs could cover. All this leads up to a top rated pass defense. Which brings me back to quinn. How is quinn going to react to all the action going on infront of him when he didn't even do that good of a job as a corner?
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Old 08-05-2011   #67
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I still don't think quinn at safety is a good idea. He gave up just as many yard as jackson did, 924 last year. Now I have also said this years ago, pass defense is more than corners play. Now having good corners do help, but as I talked about, 3 level defense is what makes a defense good. If a team is weak or suspect in 1 of those level, they better be expceptional in the other 2. Its easy to use pittsburgh because they have been great for so long on defense. Its also easy to use baltimore because they're similar to pittsburgh. I can use a team in the division who do don't have a great defense overrall, but has a very god pass defense and that's indy.

As much as people bash indy about their defense for getting run on, they have been one of the best defenses in the league in terms of pass td's allowed. Even when we consder points allowed they're pretty good. Now, tbeir defense get a lot of plays because teams can run on them,control the clock, and keep payton off the field, but as I mentioned, pass td allowed is very,very important in a passing league. When I talked about the levels of defense, think about their 3 levels and tell me where they're weak at?

Freeny and mathis on the line, bracket in the middle, and bathea and now bullitt at saftey. Playing that cover 2 shell allowed them to be top of the league in terms of pass td allowed. Freeney and mathis bringing cnsistent pressure. Even when they didn't get sacks, they got knock down,strips, and just plain pressure. On that same string, bracket and the other lbs would close those windows inside the middle of the field off. They squeezed all the inside slants and quick passes which made the qb hold the ball and come of his 1st or 2nd read. Playing off of that was bethea,sanders(when healthy), and the other corners. Sanders when healthy was the dpoy because he could be deep half and then buzz into the box. He had great read and recognition along with great speed. Bethea is that way and that's why he is one of the best safeties in the game. So even with the average corners, they had great safeties, a great pass rush, and their lbs could cover. All this leads up to a top rated pass defense. Which brings me back to quinn. How is quinn going to react to all the action going on infront of him when he didn't even do that good of a job as a corner?
So basically Kareem Jackson good, glover Quinn sucks.

And to your last question, playing corner and safety aren't the same. At corner you need a lot more agility because you will often be manned up and need to run with a cutting, juking, hooking, curling receiver.

As a safety is much more about reading and diagnosing the play as a whole. You are able to read plays and use your mentals a lot more. It also does't require as much agility because the action is in front of you so most of the time you are running in straight lines. But Quinn has better lateral agility and speed than Bernard pollard so if he is putting himself in good position he should be able to react and make plays.

Problem with him is just going to be being in good position. If he can absorb the art of the position and really become immersed in the playbook his slightly above athleticism for the position should do him justice.

Even when he played corner, I think he played well considering how the coaches had them playing. For the most part he played smart. You say he gave up as many yards as Kareem, but he didn't give up the big plays like Jackson did.
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Old 08-05-2011   #68
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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I mean, that can be said about anyone.

My point is that he lacks the first thing you need, instincts.

Compare him to Jackson. Jackson displayed good instincts, especially when he was put in a position to play short zone against corners. He showed an ability to jump routes, based on instincts. Sometimes it was a little bit early, but that happens. His problems came from technique, and as Corrosion says he doesn't have the athletic ability to make up for it. He can't take a misstep and expect to catch up to a receiver.

This was evident when he played too close to receivers as his balance was very poor last year. Any misstep and he was stumbling and/or losing ground on the receiver immediately. That can be fixed.

A side note about the stumbling and falling down. It looks to me like Jackson's feet aren't doing what his mind wants them to do. He takes a misstep and immediately tries to make up for it causing him to lose balance. IMO with good technique he could be successful.

Nolan just plain misreads things.

Just my opinion, but Jackson looks alot more coachable than does Nolan.
Although what you say is true about both players imo, I also think rookies get emotionally clobbered in NFL. Facing best of the best. My expectations of a first rounder much different than a 7th or a UDFA. KJ will remain as too soon to blow up that pick & he can be taught. Nolan because of what we have seen as a minimal cost player. I remember that late season last INT. It brought me off of my seat. I also think you can teach angles & "awareness". Both need to bring it. In my 2012 mock draft, I am leaving corner and safety on the list until I see how some of our DBs perform.
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Old 08-05-2011   #69
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

Would not the premise of the logic for such a move be that the safety position is more important than a CB postion ? Ok if that premise is invalid (which it is), then would not the move be ill-advised ? Which it is.
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Old 08-05-2011   #70
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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Would not the premise of the logic for such a move be that the safety position is more important than a CB postion ? Ok if that premise is invalid (which it is), then would not the move be ill-advised ? Which it is.
Not really. A coach can easily look at tape of the way a player plays, and say that he might be a better fit at a different position without saying that he thinks that position is more or less important than the position said player is moving to.

During the lockout I thought the move was ill-advised due to time for practice, however due to the new CBA we're not getting much more practice in the offseason than we already are during this one so more power to them.
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Old 08-05-2011   #71
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Would not the premise of the logic for such a move be that the safety position is more important than a CB postion ? Ok if that premise is invalid (which it is), then would not the move be ill-advised ? Which it is.
There is more to it than that. It's about getting your best players on the field and putting guys in a position where you believe they can be most successful.
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Old 08-05-2011   #72
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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Would not the premise of the logic for such a move be that the safety position is more important than a CB postion ? Ok if that premise is invalid (which it is), then would not the move be ill-advised ? Which it is.
The logic for the move is that Quin is better suited to Safety than CB. He's a good CB but he's expected to be a REALLY good Safety. The logic is to put players into a position for them to be the best they can be and do the best they can do.

When Quin came out of college, LZ and others were projecting him to Safety because that's what his skill set is most suited for. This group of coaches agrees with that assessment.
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Old 08-05-2011   #73
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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There is more to it than that. It's about getting your best players on the field and putting guys in a position where you believe they can be most successful.
OK. You wrote this while I was writing mine.

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Old 08-05-2011   #74
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

I'm seeing a lot of references to "instincts" on here in regards to KJ. Is it considered good instincts to get juked out of you jock so badly that you fall on your face? What are the other possible causes that could make KJ fall on his face so often? I've never seen a player fall/slip/trip quite as often as KJ. Petey Faggins would slip sometimes but....yeah
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Old 08-05-2011   #75
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I'm seeing a lot of references to "instincts" on here in regards to KJ. Is it considered good instincts to get juked out of you jock so badly that you fall on your face? What are the other possible causes that could make KJ fall on his face so often? I've never seen a player fall/slip/trip quite as often as KJ. Petey Faggins would slip sometimes but....yeah
Kj looked uncomfortable to me last year. His helmet didn't look like it fit him right. He was always tugging on the bottom of his face mask.

I don't know if it was the coaches changing his style, rookie jitters or what, but I think he just think looked out of whack. Hopefully wade can help fella get his groove back, cuz it's gonna suck if he fails.
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Old 08-05-2011   #76
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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I'm seeing a lot of references to "instincts" on here in regards to KJ. Is it considered good instincts to get juked out of you jock so badly that you fall on your face? What are the other possible causes that could make KJ fall on his face so often? I've never seen a player fall/slip/trip quite as often as KJ. Petey Faggins would slip sometimes but....yeah
I'm still holding out hope that most of the falls taken by our DBs last year were a result of that ridiculous shuffle-step technique that Bush tried to implement.
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Old 08-05-2011   #77
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
Kj looked uncomfortable to me last year. His helmet didn't look like it fit him right. He was always tugging on the bottom of his face mask.

I don't know if it was the coaches changing his style, rookie jitters or what, but I think he just think looked out of whack. Hopefully wade can help fella get his groove back, cuz it's gonna suck if he fails.
What's gonna suck is if they fail to yank him if he plays like last season. I'm hoping he only sees the field as a nickel or dime. JMHO, though.
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Old 08-05-2011   #78
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
I'm still holding out hope that most of the falls taken by our DBs last year were a result of that ridiculous shuffle-step technique that Bush tried to implement.
Do you think that him falling down in practice this year (per practice reports) is a hold over from that shuffle technique? That was reportedly junked.
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Old 08-05-2011   #79
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
I think quinn to safety is a bad idea. Its one thing to have tunnel vision playing corner and its another to have a panoramic view of the field. Qbs like manning,brees,ryan,ben and those guys will manipulate the safety with their eyes. The cheese or bait laid down will result in a td with 1 false step. It sounds good in theory and a guy like ronnie lott and rod woodson made it look easy, but they were great cbs. They understood combo coverage, man free principles and stuff like that. Quinn wasn't that good as a cb. Why take the risk when d gohlston is availible?
You do know that Quin was nation's 7th rated FS coming out of college?
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Old 08-05-2011   #80
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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Originally Posted by DocBar View Post
Do you think that him falling down in practice this year (per practice reports) is a hold over from that shuffle technique? That was reportedly junked.
No, I don't think that at all. I'm hopeful that returning to a technique that has been learned at every step of his football life will be beneficial, though.

I'd also be curious to know how many times KJ has fallen compared to any other player on the team.
KJ is under a microscope, so every slip is front page news.

I haven't heard a peep about any other player falling down. Not One.

BUT, I'm pretty confident that many other players have fallen, but it doesn't get mentioned because the spotlight is not on them regarding falling down.

For all we know, 20 other players on the team have fallen down more than KJ, but you only KJ's falls are being micro-analyzed because that's what people want to hear about.

In the words of The Kinks "give the people what they want, give the people what they want..."
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