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View Poll Results: Secondary options you prefer.
Manning and Quinn at Safety/ Joseph and Allen at CB 44 49.44%
Manning and Quinn at Safety/ Joseph and Jackson at CB 28 31.46%
Nolan and Manning at Safety/ Joseph and Quinn at CB 11 12.36%
Manning and Quinn at safety/ Joseph and "rookie" at CB 6 6.74%
Voters: 89. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-04-2011   #41
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
To say one of the 11 guys that sucked on our defense last year is more coachable than another is splitting hairs.
I don't agree with that at all.

As I was saying previously, certain aspects to someone's game are easier to coach than others. If you can identify which players struggle with aspects to their game that are more easily coached than others, then you can identify who is more coachable.
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Old 08-04-2011   #42
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Originally Posted by TexansSeminole View Post
Disagree. What plays? Nolan had 3 INTs, Jackson had 2 INTs.



Nolan consistently took poor angles. Obviously, a coach tries to improve every aspect, but not every aspect is easily improved. If a guy doesn't understand basic angles and is not able to calculate and implement them on the spot he shouldn't be playing in the NFL.

I'm not saying every player takes perfect angles every time, but when a guy is taking poor angles almost every play there is a significant problem that will not be easily fixed, if ever.



Everything is coached.

If your a manager, and your subordinate yells at a customer, you tell him not to do it. However, if he doesn't already understand not to do that then there is a significant problem.

Same goes for football. If a guy takes bad angles consistently, you will tell him how to fix it. After awhile, you realize it isn't something you can really coach out of the guy.

It's the same concept.

Instincts are natural. They cannot be completely changed through coaching. Technique can be completely changed through coaching.

Edit:

To add to this, angles rely on instincts. You cannot coach every angle that needs to be taken. Eventually, I guy needs to have the instincts to take an angle on the fly. If its something that is always harped on by coaches and is consistently being botched, then there is a serious problem.
That's not what you said initially. You said it can't be coached and that is not true.

And Nolan didn't play nearly the snaps Jackson did. Not sure how you are overlooking that glaring fact when analyzing their stats.
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Old 08-04-2011   #43
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That's not what you said initially. You said it can't be coached and that is not true.

And Nolan didn't play nearly the snaps Jackson did. Not sure how you are overlooking that glaring fact when analyzing their stats.
I was speaking more toward the severity of the problem, specifically from Nolan.

Let me rephrase the overall argument by saying that consistently taking poor angles is much more difficult to fix than poor technique.
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Old 08-04-2011   #44
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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Originally Posted by TexansSeminole View Post
I mean, that can be said about anyone.

My point is that he lacks the first thing you need, instincts.

Compare him to Jackson. Jackson displayed good instincts, especially when he was put in a position to play short zone against corners. He showed an ability to jump routes, based on instincts. Sometimes it was a little bit early, but that happens. His problems came from technique, and as Corrosion says he doesn't have the athletic ability to make up for it. He can't take a misstep and expect to catch up to a receiver.

This was evident when he played too close to receivers as his balance was very poor last year. Any misstep and he was stumbling and/or losing ground on the receiver immediately. That can be fixed.

A side note about the stumbling and falling down. It looks to me like Jackson's feet aren't doing what his mind wants them to do. He takes a misstep and immediately tries to make up for it causing him to lose balance. IMO with good technique he could be successful.

Nolan just plain misreads things.

Just my opinion, but Jackson looks alot more coachable than does Nolan.
I just have to agree with Seminole here.
I remember starting a thread evaluating Nolan when we drafted him.
The title or somewhere in the main body line is "The good, the bad, and the ugly".

Inconsistency means that instincts are not great!
It's like a guy who can make some impossible shots in pool, but then he will miss a lot of ordinary shots.
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Old 08-04-2011   #45
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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Originally Posted by TexansSeminole View Post
I mean, that can be said about anyone.

My point is that he lacks the first thing you need, instincts.

Compare him to Jackson. Jackson displayed good instincts, especially when he was put in a position to play short zone against corners. He showed an ability to jump routes, based on instincts. Sometimes it was a little bit early, but that happens. His problems came from technique, and as Corrosion says he doesn't have the athletic ability to make up for it. He can't take a misstep and expect to catch up to a receiver.

This was evident when he played too close to receivers as his balance was very poor last year. Any misstep and he was stumbling and/or losing ground on the receiver immediately. That can be fixed.

A side note about the stumbling and falling down. It looks to me like Jackson's feet aren't doing what his mind wants them to do. He takes a misstep and immediately tries to make up for it causing him to lose balance. IMO with good technique he could be successful.

Nolan just plain misreads things.

Just my opinion, but Jackson looks alot more coachable than does Nolan.
Just my opinion i never even saw him run stride for stride with a WR 15 yards down the field he was 5 yards behind. he did get lucky and the qb under threw and the WR had to slow down to catch the ball and K. Jac caught up. And i only saw him Jump a route one time the whole season. Good instincts would be knowing a WR is doing a double move on him and not fall.
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Old 08-04-2011   #46
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
Technique is a part of KJ's problems .... but a lack of straight line speed just compounds it.

I think he's a nickle guy at best .... but thats just my opinion.
Agreed

Allen hopefully will start out the season at CB2. But how long will it be before Harris takes over for Allen?

I'm really high on Harris, He's no speed demon and may lack size. But he has instincts that KJ can only dream of having. How is Harris looking this early in camp?
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Old 08-04-2011   #47
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Originally Posted by TexansSeminole View Post
I was speaking more toward the severity of the problem, specifically from Nolan.

Let me rephrase the overall argument by saying that consistently taking poor angles is much more difficult to fix than poor technique.
I understand what you're saying but angles are a part of technique. They even have a drill for it. It's called pursuit drills. Those aren't just for endurance.

I just can't imagine that Nolan made it to the NFL and not now how to take good angles on the ball carrier.
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Old 08-04-2011   #48
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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Agreed

Allen hopefully will start out the season at CB2. But how long will it be before Harris takes over for Allen?

I'm really high on Harris, He's no speed demon and may lack size. But he has instincts that KJ can only dream of having. How is Harris looking this early in camp?
i think we all thought K. Jac had instincts coming out of college, the NFL is a whole new ball game though. ask Jackson. So i am weary of another rookie starting, i mean sure he may be great just dont want to see a repeat of last season.
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Old 08-04-2011   #49
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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Originally Posted by TexansSeminole View Post
I was speaking more toward the severity of the problem, specifically from Nolan.

Let me rephrase the overall argument by saying that consistently taking poor angles is much more difficult to fix than poor technique.
In this case, we're talking about a redshirted 7th round pick playing with limited snaps.

It is very possible that he consistently took bad angles because he's yet to account for NFL Speed.

That can be learned/taught.
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Old 08-04-2011   #50
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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i think we all thought K. Jac had instincts coming out of college, the NFL is a whole new ball game though. ask Jackson. So i am weary of another rookie starting, i mean sure he may be great just dont want to see a repeat of last season.
Lots of us were not happy with KJ coming out of the draft ..... Many , myself included wanted Kyle Wilson (who went to the Jets at 29). He has much better speed than Jackson .... speed cant be taught.

Wilson didnt put up great numbers last season (16 tackles , 0 INT 0 FF) but that has more to do with the guy's in front of him than anything else.

I'd swap Jackson for Wilson right now ....
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Old 08-04-2011   #51
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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Lots of us were not happy with KJ coming out of the draft ..... Many , myself included wanted Kyle Wilson (who went to the Jets at 29). He has much better speed than Jackson .... speed cant be taught.

Wilson didnt put up great numbers last season (16 tackles , 0 INT 0 FF) but that has more to do with the guy's in front of him than anything else.

I'd swap Jackson for Wilson right now ....
With all his speed, Wilson was still getting burnt on the regular.

Rex thinks so much of Wilson that he shoved him even further down the depth chart & tried to shove him even farther.

Asomugha, Revis, Cromartie, Wilson

He's not even the nickle on that team.

Had you said McCourty I could understand. But Wilson??

If you left it at draft time, I could understand. But now?
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Old 08-04-2011   #52
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I didn't want Kyle wilson. He did not look like a good player to me. I still haven't seen any of kj's film from college.

I can't remember what I didn't like about Wilson when I watched him, I just remember thinking - do not want.

I actually like Mccourty out of the three. Dude was a baller. He reminds me a little bit of jo.

But aso is with the eagles.
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Old 08-04-2011   #53
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
With all his speed, Wilson was still getting burnt on the regular.

Rex thinks so much of Wilson that he shoved him even further down the depth chart & tried to shove him even farther.

Asomugha, Revis, Cromartie, Wilson

He's not even the nickle on that team.
With Aso , Revis and Cromartie .... Wilson isnt even the nickle , I agree. I think their attepts to sign Aso are more a credit to his being the best at his position (debatable) rather than Wislon not being suitable for a 3rd option at CB.

When you have an opportunity to sign a player like Aso , you give it your best effort.

Yeah , Wilson had been beaten a few times last year too ... but he didnt fall down on a regular basis.




Quote:
Had you said McCourty I could understand. But Wilson??

If you left it at draft time, I could understand. But now?
I was just repeating what I and many others said pre draft last season.(even if I/we were off the mark)

Today , I'd take McCourty over either Wilson or Jackson.

Taking Wilson over Jackson now .... just says how bad Jackson has been in the past and his performance thus far in camp. Practice squad and UDFA's are doing the same things to him in practice that NFL recievers did last season.

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Old 08-04-2011   #54
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

My starting secondary would have JoJo and whoever wins at CB and Manning and Quin at S. Quin just plays like a safety and he's on record as saying it feels natural for him. DB coach Joseph is on record saying it's his natural position.
IMO, Nolan just looked lost last season, He seems to have good instincts for the ball, but seems clueless in coverage. He did his best as a centerfielder where he could keep everything in front of him. Unfortunately, that's been a triat of Texans DB's for many years. I miss Glenn and Coleman. As for his 3 INT's, he screwed up at least that many by tipping the ball away from waiting defenders. I like his instincts but question his football IQ.
As of right now, I would have Allen penciled in as my starter and make someone beat him out. I say that with full confidence that if someone beats him out, his initials will not be Kareem Jackson.
I'm more than a little concerned from reports that Allen is practicing some at S. Joseph is on record as saying he can't wait to see what Allen does with a full preseason and regular season at CB and not being forced to switch positions. I think Allen is a very serviceable CB as long as he has talent around him. Houston, we have talent. Now it's up to Allen and he seems to be producing, from practice reports.
KJ should be in the fight for nickel. He needs help. He may or may not end up as a decent CB, but right now, he stinks. Ease up on the young man and let him learn. I was chastized on here today because some kids respomd better to positive reinforcement. Maybe KJ needs the positive reinforcement of competing against our 3-4 WR's or 5-6's WR or practice squad WR's. Whatever the case, he is looking more and more like a case that needs to be brought along a little slower.
Harris and Roc seem to be doing just fine and should definitely be in the fight for nickel. I wouldn't be surprised to see Harris the nickel and Roc the dime midway through the season.
Just my
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Old 08-04-2011   #55
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

I think quinn to safety is a bad idea. Its one thing to have tunnel vision playing corner and its another to have a panoramic view of the field. Qbs like manning,brees,ryan,ben and those guys will manipulate the safety with their eyes. The cheese or bait laid down will result in a td with 1 false step. It sounds good in theory and a guy like ronnie lott and rod woodson made it look easy, but they were great cbs. They understood combo coverage, man free principles and stuff like that. Quinn wasn't that good as a cb. Why take the risk when d gohlston is availible?
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Old 08-04-2011   #56
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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I think quinn to safety is a bad idea. Its one thing to have tunnel vision playing corner and its another to have a panoramic view of the field. Qbs like manning,brees,ryan,ben and those guys will manipulate the safety with their eyes. The cheese or bait laid down will result in a td with 1 false step. It sounds good in theory and a guy like ronnie lott and rod woodson made it look easy, but they were great cbs. They understood combo coverage, man free principles and stuff like that. Quinn wasn't that good as a cb. Why take the risk when d gohlston is availible?
Salary cap comes to mind and I disagree with your assessment of Quin at CB. I think he's definitely a serviceable CB, but would make a much better S. If Gholston was all that, why is he still looking for a job?
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Old 08-04-2011   #57
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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I just have to agree with Seminole here.
I remember starting a thread evaluating Nolan when we drafted him.
The title or somewhere in the main body line is "The good, the bad, and the ugly".

Inconsistency means that instincts are not great!
It's like a guy who can make some impossible shots in pool, but then he will miss a lot of ordinary shots.
I disagree here. Nolan instincts are the only reason he is in the NFL. He is always around the ball and has been a turnover machine throughout college.... and for our poor standards he performed pretty well in that regard.

The fact that he ran 4.7 and is still in position to make the plays he has is proof his instincts are very good.

His lack of athleticism, the fact that he essentially was a rookie, and the fact that his supporting cast sucked horribly are why he did not perform consistently.

Having said all that he should be the #3 safety for us. If Quinn is the answer at one safety spot then we play Allen at the other corner.

K.Jackson has not really showed anything that warrants a starting job. He should be in the nickel where he performed much better last year.

Joseph
Allen
Quinn
Manning

K.Jack
B.Harris

That should be your starting 4, nickel and dime packages.
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Old 08-04-2011   #58
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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I just have to agree with Seminole here.
I remember starting a thread evaluating Nolan when we drafted him.
The title or somewhere in the main body line is "The good, the bad, and the ugly".

Inconsistency means that instincts are not great!
It's like a guy who can make some impossible shots in pool, but then he will miss a lot of ordinary shots
.
And you wasted HOW many hours breaking down film to prop up KJ????


EDIT:Please keep in mind that I supported and agree with your breakdown of KJ, but please apply the same criteria across the board when it comes to DB's.
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Old 08-04-2011   #59
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Quinn to safety will be an excellent move IMO.

He's a good tackler for a db and he is a smart player.

He has commented about how the game has gotten tremendously slower and how much better he can read plays from the safety position.

I can't wait to see what it looks like.
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Old 08-04-2011   #60
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Default Re: Is moving Quinn To Safety smart ?

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Originally Posted by DocBar View Post
And you wasted HOW many hours breaking down film to prop up KJ????


EDIT:Please keep in mind that I supported and agree with your breakdown of KJ, but please apply the same criteria across the board when it comes to DB's.
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