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Old 07-29-2011   #41
fiasco west
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Default Re: Projected starters on defense...

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Originally Posted by Porky View Post
Any defense that has Kareem Abdul Jackson is a complete fail imo. That guy couldn't cover his great grandmother using a walker.

That spot will get picked on 80% of the time or better and why not. Hell, I would throw to his spot 100% of the time. Hell, one out of 100 throws he might make a play. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

I'm also VERY worried about our LB situation. At ILB, I doubt that Ryans is the player he was prior to injury. Then with Cushing, unless he is roided up he plays closer to Brian Cushion than Brian Cushing. He was softer than downey tissue last yr. Sure, he is good when juicing. When not, he is JAG.

On the outside, Barwin is coming off injury and more raw than a baby with a diaper rash, and Un-Super Mario is making a position change and is generally about as motivated as a homeless man living under a bridge.

I am high on Brooks Reed. I like his future a lot, but he is a rookie and he could be very good as a rookie, or he might just be the guy that needs a little seasoning before he puts it together. And it doesn't help that he is a rookie on a team changing D, with no practice time, no OTA's etc to get aquainted.

I am pretty psyched about Watt, but we don't have a NT imo. Cody and Mitchell are imposters. These guys are about as much NT as I am.

Obviousely, I love the draft picks and the two guys we picked up in FA, but I just feel we are a long ways away from being a good D. I hope I am wrong. My biggest concern is KJ. I think he stinks, and that is putting it lightly and any D with him as a starter is going to have major suckitude. I would trade him for a package of twinkies and a Dr Pepper.
It was his rookie year. Nnamdi wasn't very good his rookie year either, along with many CBs. Still it was his rookie year, there is a NFL rule that you don't judge players until they have played 3 years in the NFL. If you did base him on one year, might as well get rid of Mario too.

Lets also remember that if Kareem made a mistake, it was magnified because there was literally NO safety help at all.
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Old 07-29-2011   #42
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Default Re: Projected starters on defense...

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I share your concerns, Porky. But I think the beauty of it is that we don't need to necessarily have an ELITE defense to be very, very good.
That's true, but it sure helps because the offense has ups and downs. I think they should just play mario as rde 5 tech, wyatt as lde 5 tech, sign kelly gregg or better yet franklin, cut or trade smith and sign nate clements as another db.
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Old 07-29-2011   #43
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Default Re: Projected starters on defense...

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Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
I see not a single hole in the Texans top 11 defenders ..... That almost looks like an Allstar lineup .... Im praying to the good LORD above we dont have any significant injuries.


Joseph + Manning > Aso + nobody.

Major hole at CB2. Unproven and possibly undersized DT. ILB and (unproven) OLB coming off major injuries. FS and other OLB switching positions. Rookie DE. Everybody switching to a new scheme.

Realistically, Joseph, Manning, and A Smith are the only ones without question marks. A top 15 defense would be a huge accomplishment IMO.
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Old 07-29-2011   #44
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Default Re: Projected starters on defense...

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Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
I see not a single hole in the Texans top 11 defenders ..... That almost looks like an Allstar lineup .... Im praying to the good LORD above we dont have any significant injuries.


Joseph + Manning > Aso + nobody.
lol, not a chance.

Aso + Huff > Joseph + Manning
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Old 07-29-2011   #45
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Default Re: Projected starters on defense...

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
That's true, but it sure helps because the offense has ups and downs. I think they should just play mario as rde 5 tech, wyatt as lde 5 tech, sign kelly gregg or better yet franklin, cut or trade smith and sign nate clements as another db.
I think your last 5 posts you have mentioned cutting Smith. We get it. Won't happen, but we get it.
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Old 07-29-2011   #46
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Default Re: Projected starters on defense...

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Originally Posted by DexmanC View Post
That can't be the Texans. The lineup you posted is an NFL-calibur defense*.
*As long as JJ Watt pans out and the gigantic ? at NT isn't that big of a ? afterall
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Old 07-29-2011   #47
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Default Re: Projected starters on defense...

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Originally Posted by fiasco west View Post
It was his rookie year. Nnamdi wasn't very good his rookie year either, along with many CBs. Still it was his rookie year, there is a NFL rule that you don't judge players until they have played 3 years in the NFL. If you did base him on one year, might as well get rid of Mario too.

Lets also remember that if Kareem made a mistake, it was magnified because there was literally NO safety help at all.
It's pretty poor logic to suggest that Player X may have been terrible his first year but Good Player Y wasn't that great either, so Player X will still be good. That's like saying that some random practice squad running back will become an all-pro because Arian Foster did it. I'm sure if you look at a list of first year corners who played at historically bad levels, most probably never even rose to the level of mediocrity. That's not saying Jackson can't turn it around, especially with different coaches, but it's foolish not to think the most probable result will be continued bad play and/or lost job.
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Old 07-29-2011   #48
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Default Re: Projected starters on defense...

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Originally Posted by SteveSlaton20 View Post
lol, not a chance.

Aso + Huff > Joseph + Manning
Yeah... but Huff ain`t nobody .

The only thing that bugs me is, that the Eagles got Aso relatively cheap (12 million per year) while we got JJ a little over his market value (almost 10 million a year) - the difference is too small to be absolutely thrilled.

But then again - I am thrilled. This offseason the defense changed almost completely. New coordinator, new system and a whole bunch of new starters.

I´m pretty sure that our #2 CB will be at least serviceable - whether it is Allen or KJax (he should`ve learned something after his first year and now with good coaching) - heck maybe even Harris surprises some people.

But in the end - having a mediocre defense should do a whole lot for this football team. I just have this nagging feeling, that our O-Line will suck next year...
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Old 07-29-2011   #49
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Default Re: Projected starters on defense...

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Originally Posted by bo orlando View Post
It's pretty poor logic to suggest that Player X may have been terrible his first year but Good Player Y wasn't that great either, so Player X will still be good. That's like saying that some random practice squad running back will become an all-pro because Arian Foster did it. I'm sure if you look at a list of first year corners who played at historically bad levels, most probably never even rose to the level of mediocrity. That's not saying Jackson can't turn it around, especially with different coaches, but it's foolish not to think the most probable result will be continued bad play and/or lost job.
I didn't suggest anything. I'm saying it is foolish to give up on a player after a rookie year. Not only that, he was put on a island something only the best CBs can handle.

Also most rookie corners are not asked to shut-down receivers. Our defensive coaching last year was just straight up ignorant.
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Old 07-29-2011   #50
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Default Re: Projected starters on defense...

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Yeah... but Huff ain`t nobody .

The only thing that bugs me is, that the Eagles got Aso relatively cheap (12 million per year) while we got JJ a little over his market value (almost 10 million a year) - the difference is too small to be absolutely thrilled.

But then again - I am thrilled. This offseason the defense changed almost completely. New coordinator, new system and a whole bunch of new starters.

I´m pretty sure that our #2 CB will be at least serviceable - whether it is Allen or KJax (he should`ve learned something after his first year and now with good coaching) - heck maybe even Harris surprises some people.

But in the end - having a mediocre defense should do a whole lot for this football team. I just have this nagging feeling, that our O-Line will suck next year...
I think people are underestimating how much Asomugha's age factored into things, particularly coming off a somewhat injury-plagued season. If he was 27 like Joseph you could have given him a blank check.
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Old 07-29-2011   #51
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Default Re: Projected starters on defense...

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Originally Posted by fiasco west View Post
I didn't suggest anything. I'm saying it is foolish to give up on a player after a rookie year. Not only that, he was put on a island something only the best CBs can handle.

Also most rookie corners are not asked to shut-down receivers. Our defensive coaching last year was just straight up ignorant.

Sure, but your reasoning was that Asomugha and plenty of other good corners don't usually excel in their first year. I watched the same games as you; he wasn't ready and had little support because the safeties couldn't cover anybody either. But excuses aside, it is much more likely that Jackson stays terrible than turns it around. He'll get the opportunity, but it's hard to see it happening if you ask a realist/pessimist like me.
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Old 07-29-2011   #52
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Default Re: Projected starters on defense...

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Sure, but your reasoning was that Asomugha and plenty of other good corners don't usually excel in their first year. I watched the same games as you; he wasn't ready and had little support because the safeties couldn't cover anybody either. But excuses aside, it is much more likely that Jackson stays terrible than turns it around. He'll get the opportunity, but it's hard to see it happening if you ask a realist/pessimist like me.
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Old 07-29-2011   #53
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Default Re: Projected starters on defense...

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Originally Posted by Porky View Post
I'm also VERY worried about our LB situation. At ILB, I doubt that Ryans is the player he was prior to injury. Then with Cushing, unless he is roided up he plays closer to Brian Cushion than Brian Cushing. He was softer than downey tissue last yr. Sure, he is good when juicing. When not, he is JAG.

On the outside, Barwin is coming off injury and more raw than a baby with a diaper rash, and Un-Super Mario is making a position change and is generally about as motivated as a homeless man living under a bridge.

I am high on Brooks Reed. I like his future a lot, but he is a rookie and he could be very good as a rookie, or he might just be the guy that needs a little seasoning before he puts it together. And it doesn't help that he is a rookie on a team changing D, with no practice time, no OTA's etc to get aquainted.
I share the same set of worries you have about our LBs. Two of the four are damaged - three if you think Cushing won't be the same while not on the sauce. Big question mark regarding what level they'll be able to play at. I love him to death mind you but Ryans wasn't superb in coverage pre-achilles injury. Who knows how that will affect his ability to keep up with the Dallas Clark types.

I don't believe that Brooks will be affected by us changing defenses; since he's just starting out, he doesn't have anything to UN-learn from last year's defensive... thing (can't call it a scheme since that assumes some sort of thought process).
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Old 07-29-2011   #54
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Default Re: Projected starters on defense...

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Originally Posted by bo orlando View Post
Sure, but your reasoning was that Asomugha and plenty of other good corners don't usually excel in their first year. I watched the same games as you; he wasn't ready and had little support because the safeties couldn't cover anybody either. But excuses aside, it is much more likely that Jackson stays terrible than turns it around. He'll get the opportunity, but it's hard to see it happening if you ask a realist/pessimist like me.
It's true. Corners don't usually just come out of the gates and shut people down.

I disagree that it is much more likely that he remains terrible. The only reason is because he was a pretty high draft pick. SURE he can bust for us BUT our first rounders outside of Okoye usually work out in the end. I think a 1st round pick deserves the benefit of the doubt before saying he sucks and we should just give up on him. Again everyone thought Mario was a bust after his first year...turns out he was one of the best picks of the draft. Our whole defense was terrible last year, even our best players suffered and no wonder because our coach didn't have a idea how to use them.

That's not saying Kareem will turn out to be great. I'm simply saying you can't judge a young player on his first year. It works the other way around too, where Okoye had a pretty good first year but then just started to decline.
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Old 07-29-2011   #55
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Default Re: Projected starters on defense...

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It's true. Corners don't usually just come out of the gates and shut people down.

I disagree that it is much more likely that he remains terrible. The only reason is because he was a pretty high draft pick. SURE he can bust for us BUT our first rounders outside of Okoye usually work out in the end. I think a 1st round pick deserves the benefit of the doubt before saying he sucks and we should just give up on him. Again everyone thought Mario was a bust after his first year...turns out he was one of the best picks of the draft. Our whole defense was terrible last year, even our best players suffered and no wonder because our coach didn't have a idea how to use them.

That's not saying Kareem will turn out to be great. I'm simply saying you can't judge a young player on his first year. It works the other way around too, where Okoye had a pretty good first year but then just started to decline.
Jackson IS getting the benefit of the doubt-- he started as a rookie and kept his job even after he proved ineffective, and he'll get the chance to start this year as well. Nobody thought Mario was a "bust" after his first year, certainly not on the level of Jackson. Okoye got some sacks early in his first year, but I don't think anybody thought he was "pretty good," promising maybe, but it wasn't like his first year performance was some crazy aberration.

Jackson was historically bad his first year. Not mediocre, not disappointing, not overmatched, but historically bad. Find ten rookie corners (hell, ten rookies at any non-skill position) who had comparably awful seasons, and I'd highly doubt any of them turned into anything decent. The excuses are valid, but but how far can they really go?
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Old 07-29-2011   #56
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Default Re: Projected starters on defense...

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
That's true, but it sure helps because the offense has ups and downs. I think they should just play mario as rde 5 tech, wyatt as lde 5 tech, sign kelly gregg or better yet franklin, cut or trade smith and sign nate clements as another db.
Who is this "wyatt" you speak of? Couldn't find him on the roster/depth chart.
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Old 07-29-2011   #57
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Default Re: Projected starters on defense...

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Originally Posted by bo orlando View Post
Sure, but your reasoning was that Asomugha and plenty of other good corners don't usually excel in their first year. I watched the same games as you; he wasn't ready and had little support because the safeties couldn't cover anybody either. But excuses aside, it is much more likely that Jackson stays terrible than turns it around. He'll get the opportunity, but it's hard to see it happening if you ask a realist/pessimist like me.
What do you see in his game that makes you think he will stay terrible? Ya know, there was this DB named Bo Orlando who played for the Oilers. He sucked pretty bad his 1st season, but turned out to be pretty OK. Of course, I'm a realist/optimist.
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Old 07-29-2011   #58
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Default Re: Projected starters on defense...

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It's true. Corners don't usually just come out of the gates and shut people down.

I disagree that it is much more likely that he remains terrible. The only reason is because he was a pretty high draft pick. SURE he can bust for us BUT our first rounders outside of Okoye usually work out in the end. I think a 1st round pick deserves the benefit of the doubt before saying he sucks and we should just give up on him. Again everyone thought Mario was a bust after his first year...turns out he was one of the best picks of the draft. Our whole defense was terrible last year, even our best players suffered and no wonder because our coach didn't have a idea how to use them.

That's not saying Kareem will turn out to be great. I'm simply saying you can't judge a young player on his first year. It works the other way around too, where Okoye had a pretty good first year but then just started to decline.

You mean like HWNNBM, TJ, Jason Babin and AO? Hell that's 40% of our 1st rounders that are busts.
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Old 07-29-2011   #59
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Default Re: Projected starters on defense...

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I didn't suggest anything. I'm saying it is foolish to give up on a player after a rookie year. Not only that, he was put on a island something only the best CBs can handle.

Also most rookie corners are not asked to shut-down receivers. Our defensive coaching last year was just straight up ignorant.
Yes BUT you dont go into the season depending on that player. Not even as a #2 CB. You work him at Nickle so he can gain experience but isnt always depended on to hold his man.
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Old 07-29-2011   #60
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Default Re: Projected starters on defense...

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Originally Posted by DocBar View Post
What do you see in his game that makes you think he will stay terrible? Ya know, there was this DB named Bo Orlando who played for the Oilers. He sucked pretty bad his 1st season, but turned out to be pretty OK. Of course, I'm a realist/optimist.
He is saying that more times than not a players first season is a good picture of what you will get out of the player seasons after his rookie year. Dont get me wrong some guys suck and come back and become Hall Of Famers, But more times than not they arent in the NFL 3-5 years later. Even First Rounders.
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