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Old 11-03-2011   #801
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
I actually get what 76 is saying, but I also think that sometimes analyst are wrong.

I don't think they look at everything as closely as fans/individual teams do. Plus, there is no pressure on him to actually closely examine the play and know what he's saying is realy true
I know when I see something in real time, it's rarely what I think it is when I get a chance to go back & look at it. Especially at the game, when there's 30 things going on in a particular play, it gets kind of hard to watch.

So, it doesn't bother me when someone like Gannon says this & gets it wrong. When they keep on & on & on about it like Jaws normally does, then it gets under my skin.

The only reason you'd want to throw back shoulder (which for some reason most people think was the intention there) is because the CB is playing on top or you have safety help over the top.

We know the safety didn't come down to play man, blitz, or anything really, so I can understand Gannon thinking he was there to provide over the top (cover 2) coverage. When they rolled the tape, I'm sure he's thinking, "Damn..... I hope nobody catches that."
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Old 11-03-2011   #802
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post

Also, looking at the clips I still don't think Gabbert intended to go back shoulder.

When he is releasing the ball the WR has Allen beat (frame 45)...Allen was technically beat at that point. That is when you can see Gabbert looking over to the single coverage. No need to go back shoulder with Troy Nolan all the way in the middle of the field and Allen already in an inside trail position.

Normally you'd go back shoulder when the CB is on top of the receiver and you want your guy to comeback for the ball.

I think Gabbert was just trying to throw the ball up to the guy who had a step on single coverage and he left the ball too short and too far inside.

A back shoulder throw typically is lower than that because if you put too much air under it you give the DB time to reach and make a play on the ball. There aren't a whole lot of QB's that execute the back shoulder throw well. It takes really good chemistry between the QB and receiver. Not very many QB even attempt it. How many times have we seen Schaub go back shoulder? And he's a pretty good QB. I don't see Gabbert as the type of QB that would try to do that at this stage in his career. That's a pretty high level throw, but it's very hard to stop if done correctly.

At first I thought it was a possibility that he was trying to go back shoulder, but after seeing the breakdown, I don't think he was.

JMO.
The way we saw the route suggests an out route.
The fade (forward) or back shoulder fade are simply variations of the out route.
When the receiver turns inside, it has to be a back shoulder fade at that depth (or most likely).

It's not any form of a come back or hook route, because the receiver never planned to do so, and the throw is too long to suggest such routes.

An acute "6 cut" requires the receiver to turn to the outside.

A stop route is not as viable as a back shoulder throw since the CB is right there on the inside hip of the receiver, even though this is still a possibility.
A stop route with the ball six inches to the outside and the receiver crowding the CB a little better could work.
But then again, it's hardly a different concept from a back shoulder fade.

IMO, Gabbert thought that Allen would continue on his run a little more before he can react back to the ball.
Either a stop route or a back shoulder fade here are viable.
Basically, a stop route with the throw at least 6" to the outside is a back shoulder fade.

With the room on the side line, a throw to the outside on the back shoulder is the best throw if a QB is to attempt a pass.
(By this, I mean more than 6 inches as Gabbert tried to sell us about the success of the play.)
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Old 11-03-2011   #803
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

A "short" back shoulder fade isn't any more difficult than a quick out, especially for a spread QB like Gabbert who makes a lot of these types of throws.

In fact, I remember the Mizzou/Nebraska game in which the receivers bailed Gabbert out quite a few times.

I just went back and checked.
Gabbert actually threw a back shoulder fade in the first quarter.

I can look for more.
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Old 11-03-2011   #804
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
The way we saw the route suggests an out route.
The fade (forward) or back shoulder fade are simply variations of the out route.
When the receiver turns inside, it has to be a back shoulder fade at that depth (or most likely).

It's not any form of a come back or hook route, because the receiver never planned to do so, and the throw is too long for it to be it.

An acute "6 cut" requires the receiver to turn to the outside.

A stop route is not as viable as a back shoulder throw since the CB is right there on the inside hip of the receiver, even though this is still a possibility.
A stop route with the ball six inches to the outside and the receiver crowding the CB a little better could work.
But then again, it's hardly a different concept from a back shoulder fade.

IMO, Gabbert thought that Allen would continue on his run a little more before he can react.
Either a stop route or a back shoulder fade here are viable.
Basically, a stop route with the throw at least 6" to the outside is a back shoulder fade.

With the room on the side line, a throw to the outside on the back shoulder is the best throw if a QB is to attempt a pass.
(By this, I mean more than 6 inches as Gabbert tried to sell us about the success of the play.)

I disagree.

The receiver turned back inside to react to the ball. You can see that he is still sprinting forward with only his head looking back while the ball is still in the air.

He didn't turn and react to the ball until he saw what a terrible throw it was.

I think Gabbert was just trying to hit his man in one on one coverage on the sideline. I don't think he was thinking back shoulder because even if he goes back shoulder there Allen can still get into the play.

And in order for that to be a back shoulder throw he would have needed more than "6 inches"...The throw would have needed to be lower and much further outside....

Maybe we have different ideas of what a back shoulder throw is. But that was not even close IMO.

Like I've said before...Looks like he was just throwing it to the 1 on 1 covg and wanting his reciever to attack the ball...Doesn't look like he was throwing low and away from the DB where he'd have no chance at making a play on the ball...

The way I see the coverage it looks like cover 1 man with a lurk....with Nolan in a deep cover 1 and Demps in a shallow zone as the 'lurker'...

Again...JMO...Not calling you or anyone else wrong in this instance...Just giving my opinion..
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Old 11-03-2011   #805
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
76...For Nolan you drew the arrow towards the sideline (frame 42 and 43) but it looked like he was going straight back or even towards the center of the field. Look at where he is in each frame in relation to the hash mark. Nolan didn't turn to sprint towards Allen until he saw Gabbert about to throw it there. Nolan was never even a factor in the play even with the horribly thrown ball. If he was supposed to be in cover two he did a horrendous job. Nolan didn't look like he had any intentions of dropping into a cover two zone. After the frames where you drew the Arros Nolan drops straight back and to me it even looks like he went more inward to the hash.
Nolan backpedaled and turned to run to the side line.
He was late, but his intention was clear.
This is why I've always said he's inconsistent.
With max-protect, he has to understand that his lone resposibility now is the receiver who has outside release on the CB.
He has gotten there before, just not this time.

If he was able to recognize the patterns consistently, he would have been drafted much higher!
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Old 11-03-2011   #806
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Nolan backpedaled and turned to run to the side line.
He was late, but his intention was clear.
This is why I've always said he's inconsistent.
With max-protect, he has to understand that his lone resposibility now is the receiver who has outside release on the CB.
He has gotten there before, just not this time.

If he was able to recognize the patterns consistently, he would have been drafted much higher!
Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to play cover2 with one safety back deep.

To me it clearly looks like cover 1 with Nolan just playing center field.

His intentions do look clear to me....It clearly looks like he is dropping into centerfield which makes sense in my mind seeing as he was the only safety back deep. If he was supposed to drop into a cover two while being the only safety back deep and with their only being one route run on that side of the field then it should have been a double team which it clearly wasn't.

Really to me, it makes no sense for Nolan to be playing cover two there. It looks like cover 1, man lurk with nolan being the cover, demps being the lurker, and the corners in man. JMO.


Now this is the point where we can agree to disagree...I appreciate you posting the frames because it gave me an even more clear idea of what happened on the play as I was going from memory and just what I felt happened before...

But we are looking at the same thing and seeing it two different ways. No biggie. It was good to talk actual football.
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Old 11-03-2011   #807
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
I think Gabbert was just trying to hit his man in one on one coverage on the sideline. I don't think he was thinking back shoulder because even if he goes back shoulder there Allen can still get into the play.

And in order for that to be a back shoulder throw he would have needed more than "6 inches"...The throw would have needed to be lower and much further outside....

Maybe we have different ideas of what a back shoulder throw is.
A dart route (outside release against bump and run) is some 18 yards and deeper. This one is only 13 yards deep.
At any rate, any out route should convert to a fade route vs a cover 2 shell, as I mentioned before.
(I've seen this in a few different playbooks.)
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Old 11-03-2011   #808
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to play cover2 with one safety back deep.

To me it clearly looks like cover 1 with Nolan just playing center field.

His intentions do look clear to me....It clearly looks like he is dropping into centerfield which makes sense in my mind seeing as he was the only safety back deep.


Now this is the point where we can agree to disagree...I appreciate you posting the frames because it gave me an even more clear idea of what happened on the play as I was going from memory and just what I felt happened before...

But we are looking at the same thing and seeing it two different ways. No biggie. It was good to talk actual football.
Cover 2 doesn't neccessarily require the same depth by both safeties.

Cover one would require Nolan to take Centerfield with a slight shuffle.
He never showed any such intention.
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Old 11-03-2011   #809
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Cover 2 doesn't neccessarily require the same depth by both safeties.

Cover one would require Nolan to take Centerfield with a slight shuffle.
He never showed any such intention.
Ok...Like I said...I enjoyed talking actual football but we can agree to disagree.

What looks obvious to me looks like something else to you. No biggie.
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Old 11-03-2011   #810
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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I agree with this, I think Nolan is staying high (he dropped back immediately) to help with any deep routes... doesn't make a lot of sense, since Jjo & McCain are staying on top of their receivers.

But I do think Demps was supposed to drop down on the TE or provide underneath coverage... before the snap, we don't know what routes are going to be ran so it looks like we just guessed wrong on that one.

We had Cushing taking away any shallow crossing route by the TE.

This is a form of Pattern Matching in which the SS can stay back to help the SCB and the nickel back but can still keep an eye on the TE.
(A hybrid man/zone scheme, if you will).
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Old 11-03-2011   #811
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Ok...Like I said...I enjoyed talking actual football but we can agree to disagree.

What looks obvious to me looks like something else to you. No biggie.
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Old 11-03-2011   #812
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

Originally Posted by 76Texan -----
This is an example of what I've been saying.
The Texans roll help over to Allen's side quite a bit more (baby-sitting).
With Joseph and Jackson, they were treated more or less evenly, there was no discernible trend with those two in coverage.

....

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
I think this point has been very understated. 76, you're absolutely 100% correct on this.

I hadn't noticed or even thought about it this season, until I saw you post something similar a while back. Since Baltimore, I've been noticing the safeties play totally different when Allen is on the field as opposed to Kj

With Kj, there is more inverted safeties at times, both safeties aren't even involved in pass coverage as they are both on the line playing the run or blitzing/fake blitzing.

The Texans have a lot more confidence in what Kj is doing.
It's something I promised Rey and a few others: to post screen shots after the season when I have more time (there are so many plays).

It's similar with McCourtney last year in NE.

You count the number of defenders (including the pass rushers) and the number of threats on each side.
There are differences in how the rest of the team play when different CBs are on the field.

Due to scheme like this, the CB is free to play more aggresively and go after the ball.
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Old 11-03-2011   #813
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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A "short" back shoulder fade isn't any more difficult than a quick out, especially for a spread QB like Gabbert who makes a lot of these types of throws.

In fact, I remember the Mizzou/Nebraska game in which the receivers bailed Gabbert out quite a few times.

I just went back and checked.
Gabbert actually threw a back shoulder fade in the first quarter.

I can look for more.
Just to clarify, it was the Insight Bowl against Iowa in which I remember the receiver bailed Gabbert out quite a bit.
In the second quarter, Gabbert threw two back shoulder fades (a 23 and a 26 yarders).
On these plays, he made two good throws (no pressure), the receivers didn't have to bail him out on these occasions.
So, yes, he can definitely make this type of throw.
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Old 11-03-2011   #814
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post

I just went back and checked.
Gabbert actually threw a back shoulder fade in the first quarter.

I can look for more.
I checked on the Jags site, they have an interview where Gabbert says they work on the back-shoulder-throw everyday in practice. So who knows?

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Nolan backpedaled and turned to run to the side line.
He was late, but his intention was clear.
This is why I've always said he's inconsistent.
With max-protect, he has to understand that his lone resposibility now is the receiver who has outside release on the CB.
He has gotten there before, just not this time.

If he was able to recognize the patterns consistently, he would have been drafted much higher!
I agree with Rey, Nolan looked like he was playing deep middle, which is why I said Allen got beat on the line, allowing the outside release, the receiver should have been allowed to release inside, but fought for the outside release.
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Old 11-03-2011   #815
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

Quote:
Here's the count for this game:

The Jags had 57 plays (32 passes and 25 runs) in 13 series, not counting the kneel down by Gabbert to end the half and those downs with false start or offside penalties.

Allen played the 3rd and 4th series of each half (a total of four series and 15 plays.)
Jackson played in 9 series (42 plays).
Like TK said, he didn't show up much because he had the receiver covered pretty decent to very good.
Again, like TK said, this is what I watch as much as the TV screen allows: How each CB do on their receiver on every snap.
Correction; Allen played the last series (3 plays).
We were in prevent defense and I can only see the first two with #30 in it.

Allen 5 series, 18 plays.
KJ 8 series, 39 plays.
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Old 11-13-2011   #816
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

So are the haters out there still going to hate?

I'm wondering if the big KJ detractors out there still think he is trash and labeled a bust.

I'm not going to say he's great, but he's been very solid lately.

Well, I guess when everyone's quiet, it's a good thing (until he misses one big play, and everyone jumps on the KJ is trash bandwagon again).
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Old 11-13-2011   #817
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Cool Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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So are the haters out there still going to hate?

I'm wondering if the big KJ detractors out there still think he is trash and labeled a bust.

I'm not going to say he's great, but he's been very solid lately.

Well, I guess when everyone's quiet, it's a good thing (until he misses one big play, and everyone jumps on the KJ is trash bandwagon again).
He either did his job today or wasn't on the field, because I don't recall cursing him.
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Old 11-13-2011   #818
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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So are the haters out there still going to hate?

I'm wondering if the big KJ detractors out there still think he is trash and labeled a bust.

I'm not going to say he's great, but he's been very solid lately.

Well, I guess when everyone's quiet, it's a good thing (until he misses one big play, and everyone jumps on the KJ is trash bandwagon again).

lol, yeah this thread could get pretty interesting. KJ was good again today. We may have actually found our CB2 now that Wade and Vance Joseph have gotten the opportunity to coach him up. I don't ever think he'll be the ball hawking turnover machine some other great corners are, but we don't need him to be either.
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Old 11-13-2011   #819
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

That one PD looked like pass interference - but hey, even Revis gets away with some contact... in the end, I don`t think he gave up a big pass today. He is clearly improving and is nowhere near the embarassing player, he was at the beginning of his rookie season. Allen`s playing nice as well, so we actually have a pretty good secondary right now... never thought Id say that this year...
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Old 11-13-2011   #820
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foo82 View Post
So are the haters out there still going to hate?

I'm wondering if the big KJ detractors out there still think he is trash and labeled a bust.

I'm not going to say he's great, but he's been very solid lately.

Well, I guess when everyone's quiet, it's a good thing (until he misses one big play, and everyone jumps on the KJ is trash bandwagon again).
I will give KJ some credit, today he played very well. I like the mix of him and J Allen. Tough to say but we may have the best secondary in the NFL right now. All i know is JoJo is a damn beast, and i love his little strut after he makes a big hit.
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