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Old 11-03-2011   #781
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
This quote right here doesn't even make sense. Of course you turn right to look for the ball, and then the ball is thrown towards the outside causing the receiver and his body to turn towards the sideline. Show me one clip ever where the receiver opens up towards the sideline looking for the ball on a back shoulder fade. You won't because that's not the technique that a receiver uses on that play. But whatever makes you feel better.

You're right, what I was calling a back shoulder route is obviously not what is commonly understood as a back shoulder pass.
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Old 11-03-2011   #782
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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You're right, what I was calling a back shoulder route is obviously not what is commonly understood as a back shoulder pass.
Good deal..... Now you can go back to talking about how much K-Jac sucks.

Since this is a thread about him, I will say that I like the idea of him and Allen splitting time. To me, its healthy competition and it keeps both of the fighting every play. Neither of them has time to get complacent because they're battling for playing time.
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Old 11-03-2011   #783
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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I agree; the only attempt a QB can make here is a back shoulder fade.
With safety over the top and the CB running with the receiver (instead of playing underneath at the start), the QB cannot risk a throw over the top for fear of the safety.
A pass to the inside (unitended in this case) is there for the CB to play when he knows he has help over the top.
The only attempt a QB can make is going to the outside on a back shoulder fade.
As is, it was a terrible throw by Gabbert.

He shouldn't even make the throw in the first place.

If you rewatch the play, the Jags had two receiving threats on their left (Allen's side) and three on the other side.

The Texans rushed four (evenly with two rushers on each side.)

We dropped four (Allen, Nolan, Quin, and Cushing) on Allen's side to defend two (MSW and MJD) (even though Cushing can also help on the TE .)

We dropped only three to defend three on the other side.

This is an example of what I've been saying.
The Texans roll help over to Allen's side quite a bit more (baby-sitting).
With Joseph and Jackson, they were treated more or less evenly, there was no discernible trend with those two in coverage.
This is what I was saying when I agreed with T4L that it was a poor attempt of a back shoulder fade.

Also, we all agreed that even if it was a comeback or hook/curl type (I would add the stop route), it was still a poor throw.
On these routes, the receiver/QB should convert into a fade route anyway when they see cover 2 (for a better result), with the room the receiver had on the side line, no matter how little it is.

I must say, however, that the receiver didn't help Gabbert by not leaning in toward the CB earlier.
(I watched the Cards/Ravens game last night when Fitzgerald ran a couple fade routes and former coach Brian Billick talked about the lean such that the receiver/QB can have more room along the side line).
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Old 11-03-2011   #784
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
That's a good video there.

I found this piece if anybody is interested; it gives some more perspective on the fade route:

http://smartfootball.com/passing/run...press-coverage
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Old 11-03-2011   #785
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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That's a good video there.

I found this piece if anybody is interested; it gives some more perspective on the fade route:

http://smartfootball.com/passing/run...press-coverage
That's a good video as well. If he puts the ball where he's supposed to then it's a completion. He could have also opted to put some air under the ball and let his receiver run into it since it looks like they were in a Quarters coverage with both CB's pressing at the line of scrimmage. So he had room and space to the sideline to use either throw to and it was no way the safety was going to get there in time. He chose the route of putting it on the receiver and trying to throw a back shoulder fade and it backfired with him putting it too far on the inside. It was a great idea with poor execution.
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Old 11-03-2011   #786
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

I don't usually embrace playing the role of the simpleton: That being said, if we are at a point in the secondary where we are complaining about our 2nd or 3rd best CB blanketing a WR 25 yards downfield, intercepting the ball, but doing so while being glued to the receivers inside shoulder instead of outside shoulder.... we have come a long, long, long way on defense!!
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Old 11-03-2011   #787
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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I don't usually embrace playing the role of the simpleton: That being said, if we are at a point in the secondary where we are complaining about our 2nd or 3rd best CB blanketing a WR 25 yards downfield, intercepting the ball, but doing so while being glued to the receivers inside shoulder instead of outside shoulder.... we have come a long, long, long way on defense!!
I agree.... Its been rare this year to see receivers running free with a lot of space this year. We've turned our biggest weakness into a strength. Not bad for a defense in its first year of a new system with 2 supposed scrubs splitting time at the CB2 position.
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Old 11-03-2011   #788
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
That's a good video as well. If he puts the ball where he's supposed to then it's a completion. He could have also opted to put some air under the ball and let his receiver run into it since it looks like they were in a Quarters coverage with both CB's pressing at the line of scrimmage. So he had room and space to the sideline to use either throw to and it was no way the safety was going to get there in time. He chose the route of putting it on the receiver and trying to throw a back shoulder fade and it backfired with him putting it too far on the inside. It was a great idea with poor execution.
Well, Gabbert is a rookie.
I think when we started disguising our coverage (I will try to post the whole sequence of screen shots (2 sequences actually) from a cover 2 shell, moving the safeties forth and back, it gave him fit.
Coverage disguise is one of the things I mentioned that I like about Wade Phillips' defense when I tried to give a glimpse on his defense through the years (but didn't have time to go into details when the season started.)

First, when we moved the safeties up, we gave him a zero coverage look / all out blitz.
So he changed the protection call, moving the TE and MJD near the tackles to give him max-protect.

At that time, we moved the safeties back up top.

Now that he saw two-deep safeties again; Gabbert can only assume that Nolan will get back deep over the top with the lone receiver Mike SW on this side.

Whether it was cover 2 or quarter, against an outside release, the safety is supposed to close toward the side line quickly (there's only one receiving threat on this side.)

He doesn't know how soon or how fast Nolan can get to the side line, so I don't think Gabbert (as a rookie QB) can risk a throw over the top.
Even though we can see here that a good pass over the top (which is still the fade, just not a back shoulder fade) can still beat the coverage, the throw is more difficult given the information the QB had to process in such a short period of time, especially for a rookie like Gabbert.
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Old 11-03-2011   #789
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Good deal..... Now you can go back to talking about how much K-Jac sucks.

Since this is a thread about him, I will say that I like the idea of him and Allen splitting time. To me, its healthy competition and it keeps both of the fighting every play. Neither of them has time to get complacent because they're battling for playing time.
We are doing the same thing. Giving them equal time.
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Old 11-03-2011   #790
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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I agree.... Its been rare this year to see receivers running free with a lot of space this year. We've turned our biggest weakness into a strength. Not bad for a defense in its first year of a new system with 2 supposed scrubs splitting time at the CB2 position.
I've never looked at it this way.
Despite Allen's shortcoming, I figured he's probably the journeyman type that you can plug in to play a certain role.
Before the season, I actually thought that Allen can find a place in Wade's system given how much Wade likes the inverted cover 2.

Some of the questions I had were:

- Can Allen work on his backpedal (he didn't have one prior to this season as he always played either from the shuffle or turn and bail in Miami) well enough.
He did, and we haven't seen him stumble since PS?

- Can he play the side line routes better so that he doesn't slip and fall and/or so he can react better to the receivers' moves?
He's improving.

- Can he improve his tackling techniques and skills?
A work in pogress, but he had improved some and he's been better in run support (or less astrocious).

- Can he play more physical?
Still an unknown.

If he continues his late progress, I think he can become a decent/solid CB.
There's some hope for Allen.

As far as Jackson is concerned, the unsound/patch-work schemes and the fact that they tried to fast-track hurt him badly as a rookie.
He wasn't a scrub, he was a rookie that was put in a very bad situation.
He still has work to do in his second year and the platooning system isn't a bad situation. This way, if Joseph incur an injury (he did miss a few games last year - 4 I think), we can have the next-man up.

Look at how McCain is thriving now in the nickel.
They don't try to put him on the outside against big physical receivers like the incompetent DC we had last year.

Look at how the 3 units are playing together as a unified group.
This is the biggest problem I saw last year and mentioned it several times.
A few times, I even said that Bush should have been fired on the spot (after the Cowboys game, for example).

Unlike most people, I never saw CB #2 as a weakness entering the season, to be absolutely honest!
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Old 11-03-2011   #791
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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We are doing the same thing. Giving them equal time.

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
55 + 50 = 105....... hmmm. Kubiak also said it's probably even, because Kj was out with an injury for 2 games. So that means Kj has been playing significantly more snaps.

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Here's the count for this game:

The Jags had 57 plays (32 passes and 25 runs) in 13 series, not counting the kneel down by Gabbert to end the half and those downs with false start or offside penalties.

Allen played the 3rd and 4th series of each half (a total of four series and 15 plays.)
Jackson played in 9 series (42 plays).

Like TK said, he didn't show up much because he had the receiver covered pretty decent to very good.
Again, like TK said, this is what I watch as much as the TV screen allows: How each CB do on their receiver on every snap.
Just to give you some numbers to look at!
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Old 11-03-2011   #792
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

Here are the two sequences on Allen's INT:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/.../Allens%20INT/

What I saw was cover 2 on Allen's side, and man coverage on the other side (with Joseph and McCain).
SS Demps was looking at the TE in case he releases and will give help to JJ and McCain only on inside routes.
Or it could be cover 2 on that side as well, with Demps being intructed to make sure to help Cushing on the TE but still helping out on the receivers on any inside route.

Last edited by 76Texan; 11-03-2011 at 07:38 AM.
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Old 11-03-2011   #793
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Here are the two sequences on Allen's INT:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/.../Allens%20INT/

What I saw was cover 2 on Allen's side, and man coverage on the other side (with Joseph and McCain).
SS Demps was looking at the TE in case he releases and will give help to JJ and McCain only on inside routes.
Or it could be cover 2 on that side as well, with Demps being intructed to make sure to help Cushing on the TE but still helping out on the receivers on any inside route.
76...For Nolan you drew the arrow towards the sideline (frame 42 and 43) but it looked like he was going straight back or even towards the center of the field. Look at where he is in each frame in relation to the hash mark. Nolan didn't turn to sprint towards Allen until he saw Gabbert about to throw it there. Nolan was never even a factor in the play even with the horribly thrown ball. If he was supposed to be in cover two he did a horrendous job. Nolan didn't look like he had any intentions of dropping into a cover two zone. After the frames where you drew the Arros Nolan drops straight back and to me it even looks like he went more inward to the hash.

I don't know what the coverage was, but I don't think it is what you think it is.

Also, looking at the clips I still don't think Gabbert intended to go back shoulder.

When he is releasing the ball the WR has Allen beat (frame 45)...Allen was technically beat at that point. That is when you can see Gabbert looking over to the single coverage. No need to go back shoulder with Troy Nolan all the way in the middle of the field and Allen already in an inside trail position.

Normally you'd go back shoulder when the CB is on top of the receiver and you want your guy to comeback for the ball.

I think Gabbert was just trying to throw the ball up to the guy who had a step on single coverage and he left the ball too short and too far inside.

A back shoulder throw typically is lower than that because if you put too much air under it you give the DB time to reach and make a play on the ball. There aren't a whole lot of QB's that execute the back shoulder throw well. It takes really good chemistry between the QB and receiver. Not very many QB even attempt it. How many times have we seen Schaub go back shoulder? And he's a pretty good QB. I don't see Gabbert as the type of QB that would try to do that at this stage in his career. That's a pretty high level throw, but it's very hard to stop if done correctly.

At first I thought it was a possibility that he was trying to go back shoulder, but after seeing the breakdown, I don't think he was.

JMO.
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Old 11-03-2011   #794
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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76...For Nolan you drew the arrow towards the sideline but it looked like he was going straight back or even towards the center of the field. Look at where he is in each frame in relation to the hash mark. Nolan didn't turn to sprint towards Allen until he saw Gabbert about to throw it there. Nolan was never even a factor in the play even with the horribly thrown ball. If he was supposed to be in cover two he did a horrendous job.

I don't know what the coverage was, but I don't think it is what you think it is.

JMO.
I didn't draw the arrow. The network guys did.
Probably Rich Gannon (they had him and Marv Albert covering the game).

With his credentials, I tend to side with him.

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The fact that Nolan was late is not as important as the concept of a certain coverage that a rookie QB saw on the field (or think that he saw).

Like I said, Gabbert threw the ball very quickly; he didn't check on Nolan let alone try to freeze him.
He just saw cover 2 = deep safety help = throwing underneath.

Gannon's strong opinion was that Gabbert was fooled by the disguise in coverage.
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Old 11-03-2011   #795
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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I didn't draw the arrow. The network guys did.
Probably Rich Gannon (they had him and Marv Albert covering the game).

With his credentials, I tend to side with him.

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Ok...Well, believe what you want to believe. I think it's clear as day that Nolan never went towards the sideline until the ball was actually thrown. He stayed tight to the hash marks until then.

I really don't care who said it because I'm looking with my own two eyes and I can clearly see what happened.

But besies that, the coverage wouldn't have been cover two anyways. It would have just been doubling up on the outside receiver because there was no one else over there.
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Old 11-03-2011   #796
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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I didn't draw the arrow. The network guys did.
Probably Rich Gannon (they had him and Marv Albert covering the game).

With his credentials, I tend to side with him.

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I didn't know that awards you receive as a player make you a better analyst. I wonder if this means that Trent Dilfer is a good analyst cause, he won a superbowl you know.
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Old 11-03-2011   #797
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I didn't know that awards you receive as a player make you a better analyst. I wonder if this means that Trent Dilfer is a good analyst cause, he won a superbowl you know.
I actually get what 76 is saying, but I also think that sometimes analyst are wrong.

I don't think they look at everything as closely as fans/individual teams do. Plus, there is no pressure on him to actually closely examine the play and know what he's saying is realy true because guys like 76 just drink up whatever milk they put out...be it spoiled or fresh...



(just messin wit ya 76, just a joke)

But seriously 76...I'd like you to go through and read my post and look at what I said about it and actually dispute what I said...instead of hiding behind what Gannon supposedly said...
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Old 11-03-2011   #798
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Old 11-03-2011   #799
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
76...For Nolan you drew the arrow towards the sideline (frame 42 and 43) but it looked like he was going straight back or even towards the center of the field. Look at where he is in each frame in relation to the hash mark. Nolan didn't turn to sprint towards Allen until he saw Gabbert about to throw it there. Nolan was never even a factor in the play even with the horribly thrown ball. If he was supposed to be in cover two he did a horrendous job. Nolan didn't look like he had any intentions of dropping into a cover two zone. After the frames where you drew the Arros Nolan drops straight back and to me it even looks like he went more inward to the hash.

I don't know what the coverage was, but I don't think it is what you think it is.
I agree with this, I think Nolan is staying high (he dropped back immediately) to help with any deep routes... doesn't make a lot of sense, since Jjo & McCain are staying on top of their receivers.

But I do think Demps was supposed to drop down on the TE or provide underneath coverage... before the snap, we don't know what routes are going to be ran so it looks like we just guessed wrong on that one.
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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
Also, looking at the clips I still don't think Gabbert intended to go back shoulder.

When he is releasing the ball the WR has Allen beat (frame 45)...Allen was technically beat at that point. That is when you can see Gabbert looking over to the single coverage. No need to go back shoulder with Troy Nolan all the way in the middle of the field and Allen already in an inside trail position.

Normally you'd go back shoulder when the CB is on top of the receiver and you want your guy to comeback for the ball.

I think Gabbert was just trying to throw the ball up to the guy who had a step on single coverage and he left the ball too short and too far inside.

A back shoulder throw typically is lower than that because if you put too much air under it you give the DB time to reach and make a play on the ball. There aren't a whole lot of QB's that execute the back shoulder throw well. It takes really good chemistry between the QB and receiver. Not very many QB even attempt it. How many times have we seen Schaub go back shoulder? And he's a pretty good QB. I don't see Gabbert as the type of QB that would try to do that at this stage in his career. That's a pretty high level throw, but it's very hard to stop if done correctly.

At first I thought it was a possibility that he was trying to go back shoulder, but after seeing the breakdown, I don't think he was.

JMO.
Completely agree with this, can't imagine a QB coach asking a rookie QB to attempt the backshoulder throw, especially when you can see his fundamentals are screwed up.

But Gabbert said he wanted the ball behind where it went.... don't know if he was trying to make excuses. Even if he were, trying to go backshoulder there makes his decision look even worse, since Nolan is not in the play & his receiver has Allen beat. Watching the video, you can see him (& I think that's MSW) slowing down & cutting inside which makes it look like Allen is on top later on in the play.
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Old 11-03-2011   #800
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
This is an example of what I've been saying.
The Texans roll help over to Allen's side quite a bit more (baby-sitting).
With Joseph and Jackson, they were treated more or less evenly, there was no discernible trend with those two in coverage.
I think this point has been very understated. 76, you're absolutely 100% correct on this.

I hadn't noticed or even thought about it this season, until I saw you post something similar a while back. Since Baltimore, I've been noticing the safeties play totally different when Allen is on the field as opposed to Kj

With Kj, there is more inverted safeties at times, both safeties aren't even involved in pass coverage as they are both on the line playing the run or blitzing/fake blitzing.

The Texans have a lot more confidence in what Kj is doing.

Totally off-topic, some of us are "impressed" with Allen's ability to get INTs. That has never been part of Kj's game. He had 1 as a 4 year starter at Alabama. He was more bump & run, press dontletyourmancatchtheball cover guy. & What I've seen over the last two games, I think that's where he's going to be in the NFL.

One of the best.... I'm not going to say that. We'll have to wait & see.
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