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Old 11-02-2011   #761
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Does that look like a back-shoulder-throw to anyone?
Not really.. it looks like a bad throw
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Old 11-02-2011   #762
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
I've seen the play already probably about 10 times and I've already broken down my reasoning behind why I think that. I'm not about to continue to explain myself, but like I said both Jason Allen and Vance Joseph agreed that it was a back shoulder fade so its good enough for me to be thoroughly convinced.
Let's try it this way.

Can you identify the receiver's back shoulder?


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Originally Posted by silvrhand View Post
Not really.. it looks like a bad throw
Thank you. Now, if that is how Vance Joseph is teaching our DBs to defend the back-shoulder-pass, how do you think he's doing?
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Old 11-02-2011   #763
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Let's try it this way.

Can you identify the receiver's back shoulder?




Thank you. Now, if that is how Vance Joseph is teaching our DBs to defend the back-shoulder-pass, how do you think he's doing?
How many times can I say it was a poorly thrown back shoulder fade attempt? I think you're giving Blaine Gabbert a little too much credit in that the pass was too far to the inside. The guy's accuracy rate is less than 50 percent on the season. You're also showing a picture to justify your argument. Break down the film and you'll see what was happening. If not then please give another route that it was supposed to be. There isn't a reasonable alternative. It's not like he's been putting balls in the right spot. If professionals think that that's what was happening then I'm not even sure why we're still discussing this. Just watch the receiver running down the field.
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Old 11-02-2011   #764
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
I'll leave it to the rest of you though.
I thought we already crossed that bridge.

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
I'm not about to continue to explain myself...
Yet here we are.....

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
I'm not about to continue to explain myself..., but like I said both Jason Allen and Vance Joseph agreed that it was a back shoulder fade so its good enough for me to be thoroughly convinced.
This is the real crux of my inquiry. If Allen identified it as a back shoulder "route" & Van Joseph agreed... What does that say about Allen & Joseph if he is standing on top of the receiver?
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Old 11-02-2011   #765
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
I thought we already crossed that bridge.



Yet here we are.....



This is the real crux of my inquiry. If Allen identified it as a back shoulder "route" & Van Joseph agreed... What does that say about Allen & Joseph if he is standing on top of the receiver?
That Allen had his head around looking for the ball and made a play on it. If it was a good pass then there is probably no chance that he intercepts the pass.
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Old 11-02-2011   #766
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I haven't read the article so I don't know for sure that vj and Allen called it a backshoulder throw.

If they did, I think they are wrong. But really gabbert and the jags would be whose word I'd take as gospel. Vj and Allen dont know for sure what the jags were trying to accomplish or what was called.

The ball was thrown high and inside.

If gabbert was trying to throw a back shoulder pass he should not be an NFL qb.

I think he just threw the ball to the receiver. Maybe he thought the wr was looking inside, but I just don't see any sign that was a back shoulder pass gone extremely awry.
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Old 11-02-2011   #767
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
If they did, I think they are wrong. But really gabbert and the jags would be whose word I'd take as gospel. Vj and Allen dont know for sure what the jags were trying to accomplish or what was called.
Actually, Jason Allen calls it a back shoulder pass.... Vance Joseph isn't credited with a comment on the play.
Quote:
But then Allen explained the play happened on a back-shoulder fade, the same throw/route on which he had been beaten a couple of times earlier in the season.

"Me and coach VJ, we've been working on that," Allen said.
I don't know why anyone would think that was supposed to be a back-shoulder-throw either.

Here's the NFL highlight... keep watching & you'll here someone commenting on the play.. he says that Allen has safety help over the top (76Texan said the same thing). But you see Nolan backpedaling, straight back.

Maybe he is waiting to see if one of the receivers on Quin's side runs a post.... I don't know. But if I'm Gabbert & I see Nolan dropping straight back & Allen beat at the line, I'm throwing the ball over the top, a lot more arm & a little more air & letting the receiver run up underneath it.

As it was, he threw the ball short (maybe he was too excited, look at his feet, looks like his toe never turns, he never opens his hips towards the throw & it looks like he's throwing against his body) & to the inside, where Allen was able to make a play on the ball.

A back-shoulder-throw, or a ball placed over the top & Allen has no play on the ball. Gabbert put it in the one place he shouldn't have.
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Old 11-02-2011   #768
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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Actually, Jason Allen calls it a back shoulder pass.... Vance Joseph isn't credited with a comment on the play.
Well if Allen keeps playing back shoulder throws like that I expect him to continue to get beat. . .well, beat when he plays a qb that can halfway throw one.
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Old 11-02-2011   #769
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
Well if Allen keeps playing back shoulder throws like that I expect him to continue to get beat. . .well, beat when he plays a qb that can halfway throw one.
That was one of the points I was trying to make. If we ever play a decent QB with Allen playing significant minutes, people will fall in love with Kj.

I also added to my post, after you responded to it

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
I don't know why anyone would think that was supposed to be a back-shoulder-throw either.

Here's the NFL highlight... keep watching & you'll here someone commenting on the play.. he says that Allen has safety help over the top (76Texan said the same thing). But you see Nolan backpedaling, straight back.

Maybe he is waiting to see if one of the receivers on Quin's side runs a post.... I don't know. But if I'm Gabbert & I see Nolan dropping straight back & Allen beat at the line, I'm throwing the ball over the top, a lot more arm & a little more air & letting the receiver run up underneath it.

As it was, he threw the ball short (maybe he was too excited, look at his feet, looks like his toe never turns, he never opens his hips towards the throw & it looks like he's throwing against his body) & to the inside, where Allen was able to make a play on the ball.

A back-shoulder-throw, or a ball placed over the top & Allen has no play on the ball. Gabbert put it in the one place he shouldn't have.
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Old 11-02-2011   #770
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

Here's a link to a site where a user comments on what Blaine SAID he was trying to do on that play. I'll see if I can find the interview where he actually says it.

Quote:
If you saw Gabbert's interview after the game you'd realize that while it was a bad throw it wasn't a bad decision to throw the ball on the int play. He was going for the back shoulder throw and just threw it terribly lol...He said it wasn't the decision TO throw it just has to be a better ball (outside/behind the receiver).
http://www.jaguarsblog.com/jaguars-v...nsive-offense/

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Old 11-02-2011   #771
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

I'll continue to search for a video, but now that a fan said he saw the interview and has no invested interest in this discussion can we please this to bed?
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Old 11-02-2011   #772
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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
I'll continue to search for a video, but now that a fan said he saw the interview and has no invested interest in this discussion can we please this to bed?
http://houston.cbslocal.com/2011/10/...e-and-succeed/

I didn't hear gabbert say he was trying a backshoulder throw. I heard him say something about "to the left" or something like that.

But in the quote you posted from the fan he's prettymuch giving an opinion like us.

And my position is not that he wasn't trying to go back shoulder. I'm saying that other than hearing him say it we don't really 'know'.
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Old 11-02-2011   #773
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
http://houston.cbslocal.com/2011/10/...e-and-succeed/

I didn't hear gabbert say he was trying a backshoulder throw. I heard him say something about "to the left" or something like that.

But in the quote you posted from the fan he's prettymuch giving an opinion like us.
Lol, if he's trying to throw it to the left then where do you think he's trying to put the ball? Towards the sideline right? Which would be where? On his back shoulder right? I swear some people just can't admit when they're wrong. Its ridiculous. I haven't even heard the interview, but you guys are beating a dead horse. Its actually getting funny now. Neither of you still can tell me what he was trying to do with that throw if he wasn't trying to throw a back shoulder fade.

I listened to it and he clearly said "the throw needed to be 6 inches to the left"..... Not I need to put more air under the ball. Just because he didn't say he was trying to throw a back shoulder fade doesn't mean someone with basic football knowledge can't determine what he was trying to do. If I say my stomach hurts, and I need to use the restroom I'm pretty sure you can make the assumption I have to take a dump. Its not that freakin difficult. Geez Louise!!!
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Old 11-02-2011   #774
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Lol, if he's trying to throw it to the left then where do you think he's trying to put the ball? Towards the sideline right? Which would be where? On his back shoulder right? I swear some people just can't admit when they're wrong. Its ridiculous. I haven't even heard the interview, but you guys are beating a dead horse. Its actually getting funny now. Neither of you still can tell me what he was trying to do with that throw if he wasn't trying to throw a back shoulder fade.
It's call a disagreement. Pretty sure you are not new to them. All you have to do is stop responding to end it. I find it interesting, but the minute I don't I won't respond.

Also, I don't remember stating a position here other than you can't be 100% sure. Actually I even said it could have been a backshoulder throw.

You are reading into the quotes what you want to read.

Six inches to the left just means away from Allen who is on the inside. There are sideline routes that aren't back shoulder throws ya know. . .

Of course he wanted to throw the ball to the left more. That's where his receiver was.

Doesn't mean he was trying to go back shoulder.
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Old 11-02-2011   #775
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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It's call a disagreement. Pretty sure you are not new to them. All you have to do is stop responding to end it. I find it interesting, but the minute I don't I won't respond.

You are reading intoning quotes what you want to read.

Six inches to the left just means away from Allen who is on the inside. There are sideline routes that aren't back shoulder throws ya know. . .

Of course he wanted to throw the ball to the left more. That's where his receiver was.

Doesn't mean he was trying to go back shoulder.
This is like debating with a second grader who just can't admit that maybe he's mistaken. Are there routes that aren't back shoulder throws? Absolutely..... Was the receiver running one? Absolutely not..... The receiver was running down the field and in no way intended to run another sideline route.

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Old 11-02-2011   #776
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

I tell you what though...... I'm friends with a guy who played with Gabbert at Missouri and they still talk regularly. I'll get him to ask him what his intentions were on that play. Will that make you happy? I'm sure if he says that's what he was trying to do you'll still find a way to try to spin it.
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Old 11-03-2011   #777
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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But if I'm Gabbert & I see Nolan dropping straight back & Allen beat at the line, I'm throwing the ball over the top, a lot more arm & a little more air & letting the receiver run up underneath it.

As it was, he threw the ball short (maybe he was too excited, look at his feet, looks like his toe never turns, he never opens his hips towards the throw & it looks like he's throwing against his body) & to the inside, where Allen was able to make a play on the ball.

A back-shoulder-throw, or a ball placed over the top & Allen has no play on the ball. Gabbert put it in the one place he shouldn't have.
This is me saying what I think he is trying to do & giving my thoughts on why the ball ended up where it did. His mechanics are screwed up. Even if he wanted the ball to be six inches to the left, he needs to reset that front foot at least 6 inches to the left, there is no way the ball is getting to the back-shoulder with him twisted up the way he is.

I also say here that a back-shoulder throw is one of the passes that would make sense here. But the only way I would be convinced that it's supposed to be back-shoulder is if the receiver had turned to his left, which he never does.

With a back-shoulder throw, you don't turn to the right, look for the ball then turn left. You turn left, period. There's no way he'd have been all over Allen had he thought it was supposed to be back-shoulder. He would have turned to his left, Allen would have been by himself.

Here's the video(Click on "Gabberts second interception"), tell me at what time does he turn left expecting the ball.

This is a screen-shot where he is looking for the ball, to his right, he's got Allen beat, he's expecting the ball, he looks inside, to his right.


Like I said though, you're missing the point. I don't care what the pass was supposed to be. The point is that Allen said it was supposed to be a back-shoulder throw..... Gabbert says it's supposed to be a back-shoulder throw.

If you want to defend the back-shoulder throw, where would you be as a DB? You cannot defend back-shoulder if you are on top to the inside.

So people are wondering why Kjac gets more playing time than Allen, this is my response to that. It worked out, Allen got an interception, but just like his other two, it is because the QB throws a bad ball.

Allen is beat on this play at the LOS. If it's a well thrown back-shoulder pass, he is in no position to make a play. If it's a well thrown 9, he is in no position to make a play.

Look at Jjo at the top, that's not a back shoulder, but it shows a receiver stopping & turning expecting the ball. Look at where Jjo is, that's as good as it gets trying to defend that type of route, that's a small gap between him & the receiver... the DB has no idea what route the receiver is running, which makes a quick stop or comeback like a back-shoulder impossible to defend when you're manned up.

So fine....... let's say I'm wrong. I'm wrong. It's a back-shoulder throw. Allen is expecting a back shoulder throw, why is he not on the receiver's back shoulder?
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Old 11-03-2011   #778
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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This is me saying what I think he is trying to do & giving my thoughts on why the ball ended up where it did. His mechanics are screwed up. Even if he wanted the ball to be six inches to the left, he needs to reset that front foot at least 6 inches to the left, there is no way the ball is getting to the back-shoulder with him twisted up the way he is.

I also say here that a back-shoulder throw is one of the passes that would make sense here. But the only way I would be convinced that it's supposed to be back-shoulder is if the receiver had turned to his left, which he never does.

With a back-shoulder throw, you don't turn to the right, look for the ball then turn left. You turn left, period. There's no way he'd have been all over Allen had he thought it was supposed to be back-shoulder. He would have turned to his left, Allen would have been by himself.

Here's the video(Click on "Gabberts second interception"), tell me at what time does he turn left expecting the ball.

This is a screen-shot where he is looking for the ball, to his right, he's got Allen beat, he's expecting the ball, he looks inside, to his right.


Like I said though, you're missing the point. I don't care what the pass was supposed to be. The point is that Allen said it was supposed to be a back-shoulder throw..... Gabbert says it's supposed to be a back-shoulder throw.

If you want to defend the back-shoulder throw, where would you be as a DB? You cannot defend back-shoulder if you are on top to the inside.

So people are wondering why Kjac gets more playing time than Allen, this is my response to that. It worked out, Allen got an interception, but just like his other two, it is because the QB throws a bad ball.

Allen is beat on this play at the LOS. If it's a well thrown back-shoulder pass, he is in no position to make a play. If it's a well thrown 9, he is in no position to make a play.

Look at Jjo at the top, that's not a back shoulder, but it shows a receiver stopping & turning expecting the ball. Look at where Jjo is, that's as good as it gets trying to defend that type of route, that's a small gap between him & the receiver... the DB has no idea what route the receiver is running, which makes a quick stop or comeback like a back-shoulder impossible to defend when you're manned up.

So fine....... let's say I'm wrong. I'm wrong. It's a back-shoulder throw. Allen is expecting a back shoulder throw, why is he not on the receiver's back shoulder?
I'm not sure why you keep bringing up where Allen was position wise related to the receiver. All I've ever said during all of this non-sense is that it was a poorly executed back shoulder fade..... AGAIN IT WAS A POORLY THROWN BACK SHOULDER FADE ATTEMPT. Watch this you tube clip that explains more about it. The first throw from Rodgers to Jennings is exactly what he was attempting to pull off. Of course the receiver is going to turn inside for the ball initially. A well thrown ball is going to turn him him towards the sideline. He's expecting for the ball to be delivered towards the outside, which is why Gabbert said the ball need to be more to the left and its a good pass. It wasn't..... and the ball was intercepted. Again, I've already text a friend of mine to ask him what he was trying to do. I'll see if he responds back to it. But the fact you're now trying to get me to explain what Allen was doing on the play is a little silly. All I've said is that it was poorly executed back shoulder fade attempt. That's it. In that screenshot it also shows Allen running even with him. I have no idea how you consider that beat from the receiver's perspective. He and Allen are both at the 29 yard line. He doesn't even have a step on Allen at this point in the play.

You keep bringing up all this stuff about the defense and how they're defending it. I'm not in this whole Allen and K-Jac debate, so I'm not going to talk about how he defended it. I said it was a poorly thrown ball, back it up with Gabbert's quotes and now you're talking about other things that we weren't even discussing initially. Its almost like you finally admitting that that its raining outside, but then saying "Well so what, its not gonna rain all day." Its getting a tad childish now.




http://youtu.be/NAVmFlp0fTE
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Old 11-03-2011   #779
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
I'm not sure why you keep bringing up where Allen was position wise related to the receiver. All I've ever said during all of this non-sense is that it was a poorly executed back shoulder fade..... AGAIN IT WAS A POORLY THROWN BACK SHOULDER FADE ATTEMPT.
Because that is what this thread is about, it's not about QBs, it's about CBs..... the point I an trying to make is that Allen "recognized" it as a back-shoulder fade (which is impossible to do, the QB decides to throw back shoulder after determining how the CB plays the receiver) but doesn't play it as if he is expecting a back-shoulder pass.
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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
Watch this you tube clip that explains more about it. The first throw from Rodgers to Jennings is exactly what he was attempting to pull off. Of course the receiver is going to turn inside for the ball initially.
I'll admit, that's not what I was thinking when they were talking about back shoulder "routes" When the QB & receiver are thinking back shoulder from the get go, I'm expecting a timing route & the receiver to turn outside.

For this one, yeah, I see what they are doing, yes if Gabbert threw it behind the receiver... poorly thrown ball, no doubt about it.
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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
But the fact you're now trying to get me to explain what Allen was doing on the play is a little silly. All I've said is that it was poorly executed back shoulder fade attempt. That's it.
& I've been trying to say from the get go, what Gabbert was trying to do is irrelevant, My point for posting the picture is about Allen's recognition (he thought it was supposed to be a back-shoulder pass) & how he responded (he's playing on top & to the inside)

This is why (I think) he doesn't get as much playing time as Kj
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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
In that screenshot it also shows Allen running even with him. I have no idea how you consider that beat from the receiver's perspective. He and Allen are both at the 29 yard line. He doesn't even have a step on Allen at this point in the play.
Watch the video, the receiver's initial move is to the inside then the receiver releases outside.

His help is inside. A more physical corner in press coverage would not allow the outside route, he would have allowed the receiver to go inside & fought him in the first 5 yards to prevent an outside release.

Allen is beat.

Then running down the field, Allen is playing inside, still plenty of room to the sideline. If Gabbert throws that ball over the top, towards the sideline, that's a big play, Nolan is too far away.
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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
You keep bringing up all this stuff about the defense and how they're defending it. I'm not in this whole Allen and K-Jac debate, so I'm not going to talk about how he defended it.
That's what this whole thread has been about.
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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
I said it was a poorly thrown ball, back it up with Gabbert's quotes and now you're talking about other things that we weren't even discussing initially. Its almost like you finally admitting that that its raining outside, but then saying "Well so what, its not rain all day." Its getting a tad childish now.




http://youtu.be/NAVmFlp0fTE
I tried to cut it off earlier......
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Well if Allen keeps playing back shoulder throws like that I expect him to continue to get beat. . .well, beat when he plays a qb that can halfway throw one.
That was one of the points I was trying to make. If we ever play a decent QB with Allen playing significant minutes, people will fall in love with Kj.
Keep in mind, this is the Kj's plight thread. Most of the opinions expressed in this thread are "Kj sucks" & "Kj doesn't suck that bad"
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Old 11-03-2011   #780
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

Quote:
With a back-shoulder throw, you don't turn to the right, look for the ball then turn left. You turn left, period. There's no way he'd have been all over Allen had he thought it was supposed to be back-shoulder. He would have turned to his left, Allen would have been by himself.
This quote right here doesn't even make sense. Of course you turn right to look for the ball, and then the ball is thrown towards the outside causing the receiver and his body to turn towards the sideline. Show me one clip ever where the receiver opens up towards the sideline looking for the ball on a back shoulder fade. You won't because that's not the technique that a receiver uses on that play. But whatever makes you feel better.

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