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Old 11-02-2011   #741
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Does that look like a back-shoulder-throw to anyone?

Not to me. It looks like a throw to the inside.
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Old 11-02-2011   #742
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

The secondary as a whole has improved with each passing game this season, the most exciting thing about that is the fact that they still haven't peaked yet.

The loss of Manning didn't seem to hinder them either last week which is a major positive, part of me did wonder if we'd miss his veteran leadership from behind the play and would lose out across the secondary as a whole because of that, but no, Nolan stepped in and Quin stepped up.

Here's to hoping Kareems reduced playing time gives him the opportunity to develop into that #2 role, Allen is doing a reasonable job at this point and making a few plays into the bargain, not a bad option to have and gives Kareem a chance to take extra in-game coaching to get better.
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Old 11-02-2011   #743
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
Not to me. It looks like a throw to the inside.
Well technically it was a poorly thrown back shoulder throw.
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Old 11-02-2011   #744
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
Well technically it was a poorly thrown back shoulder throw.

Not sure how you know that...but ok I guess...
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Old 11-02-2011   #745
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
Not sure how you know that...but ok I guess...
Because I watched the game and the play. If a receiver has to turn inside to try and break up this pass on a back shoulder fade then it's not a well thrown ball.
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Old 11-02-2011   #746
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
Because I watched the game and the play. If a receiver has to turn inside to try and break up this pass on a back shoulder fade then it's not a well thrown ball.
How do you know what the QB's intentions were is my point
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Old 11-02-2011   #747
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

38 pages to try and argue an inarguable point. Jeez.

Nothing said here changes the fact that KJ is not a good cornerback, and isn't even the 2nd best CB on a team full of crappy CBs.
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Old 11-02-2011   #748
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
How do you know what the QB's intentions were is my point
Because of the route than was ran. And how the play played out. You can pretty much use process of elimination. Also there's a quote in the Chronicle where Jason Allen and Vance Joseph were talking about how they were expecting and preparing for the back shoulder fade, and he benefited from his work in practice. But its pretty clear of what Gabbert was trying to do even without seeing those quotes. It just looked like it was poorly executed.

What other route did you think it could be? The only other routes it possibly could be is a deep curl or comeback, but it would have still been a poorly thrown ball.
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Old 11-02-2011   #749
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

Quote:
But then Allen explained the play happened on a back-shoulder fade, the same throw/route on which he had been beaten a couple of times earlier in the season.

"Me and coach VJ, we've been working on that," Allen said.

Quote from the article...... It wasn't a well executed back shoulder fade, but it was an attempted back shoulder fade.
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Old 11-02-2011   #750
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
What other route did you think it could be? The only other routes it possibly could be is a deep curl or comeback, but it would have still been a poorly thrown ball.
Back shoulder throw isn't a type of route.

I'm not arguing the poorly thrown ball and remember how this conversation started. I repsonded to TK saying that the pass didn't appear to be a back shoulder throw and it looks like it was thrown to the inside (which is not where a back shoulder throw should be).

You then responded basically saying it was obviously a poorly thrown back shoulder pass...That's a possibility. But what I'm saying and have been trying to say, and what you basically said above is: There could be other possibilities
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Old 11-02-2011   #751
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
Because of the route than was ran. And how the play played out. You can pretty much use process of elimination. Also there's a quote in the Chronicle where Jason Allen and Vance Joseph were talking about how they were expecting and preparing for the back shoulder fade, and he benefited from his work in practice. But its pretty clear of what Gabbert was trying to do even without seeing those quotes. It just looked like it was poorly executed.

What other route did you think it could be? The only other routes it possibly could be is a deep curl or comeback, but it would have still been a poorly thrown ball.
I agree; the only attempt a QB can make here is a back shoulder fade.
With safety over the top and the CB running with the receiver (instead of playing underneath at the start), the QB cannot risk a throw over the top for fear of the safety.
A pass to the inside (unitended in this case) is there for the CB to play when he knows he has help over the top.
The only attempt a QB can make is going to the outside on a back shoulder fade.
As is, it was a terrible throw by Gabbert.

He shouldn't even make the throw in the first place.

If you rewatch the play, the Jags had two receiving threats on their left (Allen's side) and thee on the other side.

The Texans rushed four (evenly with two rushers on each side.)

We dropped four (Allen, Nolan, Quin, and Cushing) on Allen's side to defend two (MSW and MJD) (even though Cushing can also help on the TE .)

We dropped only three to defend three on the other side.

This is an example of what I've been saying.
The Texans roll help over to Allen's side quite a bit more (baby-sitting).
With Joseph and Jackson, they were treated more or less evenly, there was no discernible trend with those two in coverage.
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Old 11-02-2011   #752
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
Back shoulder throw isn't a type of route.

I'm not arguing the poorly thrown ball and remember how this conversation started. I repsonded to TK saying that the pass didn't appear to be a back shoulder throw and it looks like it was thrown to the inside (which is not where a back shoulder throw should be).

You then responded basically saying it was obviously a poorly thrown back shoulder pass...That's a possibility. But what I'm saying and have been trying to say, and what you basically said above is: There could be other possibilities

A fade is a route..... so therefore back shoulder fade is a route. I'm really not trying to debate you on this. I put the quote there for you to see and if Jason Allen and Vance Joseph both agree that's what they were trying to run there then I would think that should be the end of it. The reason I said it was process of elimination is because at no point did he attempt to try to plant and come back to the ball. That would happen on a comeback/5 route or a curl/4 route. He ran down the field while turning to the inside to look for the ball, and instead of the ball being thrown on the outside, it was thrown on the inside pretty much taking him out of the play. The trajectory of the pass also hinted at what Gabbert was intending to do with the pass.
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Old 11-02-2011   #753
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
55 + 50 = 105....... hmmm. Kubiak also said it's probably even, because Kj was out with an injury for 2 games. So that means Kj has been playing significantly more snaps.
Here's the count for this game:

The Jags had 57 plays (32 passes and 25 runs) in 13 series, not counting the kneel down by Gabbert to end the half and those downs with false start or offside penalties.


Allen played the 3rd and 4th series of each half (a total of four series and 15 plays.)
Jackson played in 9 series (42 plays).

Like TK said, he didn't show up much because he had the receiver covered pretty decent to very good.
Again, like TK said, this is what I watch as much as the TV screen allows: How each CB do on their receiver on every snap.
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Old 11-02-2011   #754
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
A fade is a route..... so therefore back shoulder fade is a route.
No...

A fade route is not necessarily thrown to the back shoulder. In fact I'd say most fade routes are thrown near the EZ and are typically jump balls...Not back shoulder throws.

Once again...Go back and read how this convo got started. You quoted me and I responded. I didn't say you were trying to debate or argue.
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Old 11-02-2011   #755
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
No...

A fade route is not necessarily thrown to the back shoulder. In fact I'd say most fade routes are thrown near the EZ and are typically jump balls...Not back shoulder throws.

Once again...Go back and read how this convo got started. You quoted me and I responded. I didn't say you were trying to debate or argue.
If I would've known that it would've dragged me into this then I would've never commented on it. I'll post a link for you to check out an outside view. Trust me, there is a difference between a standard fade route and a back shoulder fade. Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers could definitely tell you that. Here's the link though that kind of talks about it. I respect your opinion because I've seen your posts so I know you know what you're talking about, but this is one we'll just have to disagree on.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/...lder-fade.html
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Old 11-02-2011   #756
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
If I would've known that it would've dragged me into this then I would've never commented on it. I'll post a link for you to check out an outside view. Trust me, there is a difference between a standard fade route and a back shoulder fade. Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers could definitely tell you that. Here's the link though that kind of talks about it. I respect your opinion because I've seen your posts so I know you know what you're talking about, but this is one we'll just have to disagree on.
Yes we can agree to disagree on it. No bigggie.
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Old 11-02-2011   #757
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
Because of the route than was ran. And how the play played out. You can pretty much use process of elimination. Also there's a quote in the Chronicle where Jason Allen and Vance Joseph were talking about how they were expecting and preparing for the back shoulder fade, and he benefited from his work in practice. But its pretty clear of what Gabbert was trying to do even without seeing those quotes. It just looked like it was poorly executed.

What other route did you think it could be? The only other routes it possibly could be is a deep curl or comeback, but it would have still been a poorly thrown ball.
I asked the question, because there is no way anyone could think that was a back shoulder pass.... or even a poorly thrown back shoulder pass.

Had it been, it would have been behind the receiver one way or another. That picture shows the receiver running a 9 & Allen standing in front of him.

If you go back & watch the highlights, you'll see Allen is beaten on that play. He bites an inside fake by the receiver & he's way inside before the ball is thrown. He may even stumble a little bit.

Gabbert may have thought Allen fell down, or at the very least wouldn't be able to recover in time. But Allen does a good job with his make up speed to get in front of the receiver. By then it's too late for Gabbert to "stop" the throw.

It was a good play by Allen (even though he was initially beat), where his athleticism saved him. I don't know why he would have called it a back shoulder when he clearly made the decision to get in front of that receiver.

Edit I'm going off memory, but here is a video of the play tell me what you think. I can't watch their videos at work for some reason..... the freak'n adds come through no problem, but not the actual highlights.
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Old 11-02-2011   #758
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

KJ and I think GQ or another DB will be the Texans player guests for the weekly Texans appearences this Tuesday for 610am with Vandy and Lopez at whatever Verizon location they are doing this week.

I'm honestly curious how that will go over. I would hope he can make it through an appearence without being publicly humiliated but he is the focal point of a lot of negativity so I just wonder A) if that was a smart move by whoever sets that up and B) how it will go.

There were already people on 610 saying they want to bring pieces of burnt toast and ask him to sign it.

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Old 11-02-2011   #759
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
38 pages to try and argue an inarguable point. Jeez.

Nothing said here changes the fact that KJ is not a good cornerback, and isn't even the 2nd best CB on a team full of crappy CBs.
number 1 in limiting opposing completions rate in the NFL. If our CBs were so bad, I couldn't imagine what it would look like if they were decent.
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Old 11-02-2011   #760
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
I asked the question, because there is no way anyone could think that was a back shoulder pass.... or even a poorly thrown back shoulder pass.

Had it been, it would have been behind the receiver one way or another. That picture shows the receiver running a 9 & Allen standing in front of him.

If you go back & watch the highlights, you'll see Allen is beaten on that play. He bites an inside fake by the receiver & he's way inside before the ball is thrown. He may even stumble a little bit.

Gabbert may have thought Allen fell down, or at the very least wouldn't be able to recover in time. But Allen does a good job with his make up speed to get in front of the receiver. By then it's too late for Gabbert to "stop" the throw.

It was a good play by Allen (even though he was initially beat), where his athleticism saved him. I don't know why he would have called it a back shoulder when he clearly made the decision to get in front of that receiver.

Edit I'm going off memory, but here is a video of the play tell me what you think. I can't watch their videos at work for some reason..... the freak'n adds come through no problem, but not the actual highlights.
I've seen the play already probably about 10 times and I've already broken down my reasoning behind why I think that. I'm not about to continue to explain myself, but like I said both Jason Allen and Vance Joseph agreed that it was a back shoulder fade so its good enough for me to be thoroughly convinced. If its not for you then I understand, but its really not that serious for me to keep going on and on about it. I just watched it a few more times, and you can clearly see the receiver get his head around and start to try to turn in anticipation for a throw towards the sideline before he realizes Gabbert delivered a poorly thrown pass. To me, its not even that complicated, so its the last I'll be commenting on this.
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