Kareem Jackson's plight.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by Rey

Right, but that doesn't really have anything to do with what I was talking about...

Which was constantly looking at other player's faults to somehow make Kareem look better.

Infantrycak is talking about comparing our #2 to other #2s....

I think 76Texans has always been more focused on our First round CB compared to other 1st round CBs & using guys like Kyle Wilson & McCourtey makes too much sense, since we passed on them to get "the most NFL ready" of the bunch.

Hayden was taken much higher, Petterson was also regarded a much higher prospect. He contrast Kj to those guys to say, "This is what you get with a rookie CB, regardless how good a prospect he is" just to demonstrate how difficult the position is to learn.

He's taken screen shots of veterans playing similar defensive schemes to demonstrate KJ doing exactly what he was supposed to be doing, and others showing him actually doing it better than some of the vets...

It's not so much that 76 is tearing apart other players game, but contrasting what they do to what KJ does for comparison purposes.

But "Kj sucks" appears to be the only thing you want to hear.

[76Texan]

Thank you, TK!

[STEEL BLUE TEXANS]

One of the drives you mention Allen being a part of, Barwin was called for offsides on 3rd and 3 which prevented a 3 and out. The very next play the Titans motioned CJ out wide where he had a 1 on 1 matchup against Sharpton. Are you really going to penalize Jason Allen for that.

Hasselbecks first pass was the play where KJ got flagged for PI which was a legit call. KJ is a step behind the receiver, stumbles and grabs the receiver from behind. You conveniently left out those penalty yards when you were comparing drives KJ and JA played in.

On the fleaflicker the Titans tried, KJ is 2 steps behind the receiver but gets bailed out by a huge hit from JoJo jarring the ball loose. Next play the receiver drops a wide open pass in the middle of the field (coverage by McCain). This drive you credit KJ for a 3 and out.

I personally have no dog in this fight as I think both Kareem Jackson and Jason Allen suck and neither are the longterm answer at CB2. If you're going to put all that work analyzing these two, at least tell the whole story.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by STEEL BLUE TEXANS

On the fleaflicker the Titans tried, KJ is 2 steps behind the receiver but gets bailed out by a huge hit from JoJo jarring the ball loose.

When I saw that play, I immediately thought of this defense

Originally Posted by 76Texan

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by STEEL BLUE TEXANS

1. One of the drives you mention Allen being a part of, Barwin was called for offsides on 3rd and 3 which prevented a 3 and out. The very next play the Titans motioned CJ out wide where he had a 1 on 1 matchup against Sharpton. Are you really going to penalize Jason Allen for that.

2. Hasselbecks first pass was the play where KJ got flagged for PI which was a legit call. KJ is a step behind the receiver, stumbles and grabs the receiver from behind. You conveniently left out those penalty yards when you were comparing drives KJ and JA played in.

3. On the fleaflicker the Titans tried, KJ is 2 steps behind the receiver but gets bailed out by a huge hit from JoJo jarring the ball loose. Next play the receiver drops a wide open pass in the middle of the field (coverage by McCain). This drive you credit KJ for a 3 and out.

I personally have no dog in this fight as I think both Kareem Jackson and Jason Allen suck and neither are the longterm answer at CB2. If you're going to put all that work analyzing these two, at least tell the whole story.

1. I'm counting drives and plays, basically to show that KJ was not an easy target such that Hasselbeck and the Titans coaches had in mind to come back to (deep) time and again; not what some posters think.

2. No, I didn't leave out the PI call. Reread my posts.
Even though I feel that it was an iffy call.
I don't think a receiver cut back across a DB's face should get a PI call; if anything, it's probably should have been incidental contact.
If KJ had turned his head to the inside (he doesn't even have to look all the way back at the QB), I think the call could have easily gone the other way around.
A PI is when the CB impedes the receiver natural direction in the route.
Heck, if every time a CB trails and the receiver just has to stop or turn toward the receiver while slowing down so that the DB runs into him to get a PI call; they would have done it all day long!

3. What TK said, a variety of sort.
The Walter's 20 yard catch on a slant route in the other thread is another variety.
In that play, the Tacks decided to keep the safety back and gave up the slant to Walter.
Was Courtland Finnegan any closer to Walter than KJ was to his receiver?
No, he was further away.
In cover one or cover three, the RCB (Finnegan and KJ) needs to be concerned about the swirl route, where the crosser ran toward the middle but then cut back to the side line. (I've seen those, I think AJ had one of those as well.)
If the deep safety comes down to take the crosser, then the RCB took over in the post (this should be done early in the pattern.)

The way the Texans played it here is also a good way.
Joseph releases his man to the deep safety and cut off the crosser.

We had Jackson in Joseph's position in another game (Ravens, I think) where he played LCB and released his man to cut off the crosser.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

But "Kj sucks" appears to be the only thing you want to hear.

Child Please.

Go back and read what I've said about KJ and other corners.

I know exactly what 76 is "trying to do" and I am not buying it.

All corners make mistakes. All corners get beat. Most rookie corners thrown into the fire have ugly moments.

But big time players make big time plays, or at least flash some playmaking ability. Kareem can be solid at times, but he does not make plays.

Now you can put all the stock you want to into playing the run well and making tackles, but Dunta did the same exact thing. If I had to choose, I'd rather have a corner who could cover very well but couldn't tackle rather than vice versa.

Now, I don't like to judge players without taking their environment into consideration (pass rush, overall defensive success, key players around them), but despite whatever mistakes McCourty or Joe Haden made, they made plays.

Also, I'm taking Peterson all day every day over KJ. In six games he has an INT and a return TD.

Who said that a rookie is supposed to come in and be shut down?

You and 76 both need to pay attention because I have said it like a million times that getting beat is not something exclusive to KJ and that is not my problem with him.

He rarely gets his hands on balls (PD's or INT's) even though teams throw his way all the time and as a first round CB that is no bueno.

Which brings me back to my original point: when all you do is point out screw ups by other players and explain away bad plays by "your guy" it makes your analysis less credible IMO. You are not presenting the full spectrum of what is going on.

And that is JMO on the subject.

[badboy]

Originally Posted by Vinny

if you don't know what you are looking at, Kareem Jackson's play is fine.

That is what ugly women pray for.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by Rey

But big time players make big time plays, or at least flash some playmaking ability. Kareem can be solid at times, but he does not make plays.



Also, I'm taking Peterson all day every day over KJ. In six games he has an INT and a return TD.

Who said that a rookie is supposed to come in and be shut down?

You and 76 both need to pay attention because I have said it like a million times that getting beat is not something exclusive to KJ and that is not my problem with him.

He rarely gets his hands on balls (PD's or INT's) even though teams throw his way all the time and as a first round CB that is no bueno.

Rookie season:

In six games Peterson had an INT on a hail mary pass at the end of the half where the QB threw into a crowd of 3 defenders.
One guy batted the ball away into the hand of the fourth defender (Peterson) who wasn't on anybody.

In six games, Peterson had 3 PDs.

In six games, KJ had an INT that was definitely more legitimate than Peterson can only dream off.

In six games, KJ had 5 PDs.

And what does a return have anything to do with playing CB and coverage?

[Rey]

Also, I have not been one constantly saying Kareem sucks. In fact I've said several times that his play has been better than last year.

But that said, I think we can do better at CB#2 in the future. I also think that it's a good things that Allen has been eating into some of his playing time. They both have their warts but lthey both do different things well.

[76Texan]

Asomugha had ZERO Int in his rookie campaign.

In fact, he didn't have an INT until his 50th game in the league!

[Rey]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

Rookie season:

In six games Peterson had an INT on a hail mary pass at the end of the half where the QB threw into a crowd of 3 defenders.
One guy batted the ball away into the hand of the fourth defender (Peterson) who wasn't on anybody.

In six games, Peterson had 3 PDs.

In six games, KJ had an INT that was definitely more legitimate than Peterson can only dream off.

In six games, KJ had 5 PDs.

76, if you would start a team an take Kareem over Peterson then be my guest. But I see you conviently did not mention the other two corners in my post.

And what does a return have anything to do with playing CB and coverage?

Nothing. Did I say it did?

My point is that he provides value in that area therefore that is one more reason I'd take him over Kareem.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by Rey

76, if you would start a team an take Kareem over Peterson then be my guest. But I see you conviently did not mention the other two corners in my post.



Nothing. Did I say it did?

My point is that he provides value in that area therefore that is one more reason I'd take him over Kareem.

So what's wrong with the point that Jackson is a much better tackler than Peterson?

You don't think a miss-tackle can lead to a TD or a long gain?
Well, guess what, Peterson's poor tackling had led to 2 TDs for the opponents.

No, I don't intend to leave out the other two corners; I had already talked about them.
They WERE NOT THROWN INTO THE FIRE. McCourty especially!

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by Rey

76, if you would start a team an take Kareem over Peterson then be my guest.

My point is that he provides value in that area therefore that is one more reason I'd take him over Kareem.

I would trade down to pick Jackson and another player.

Or use the additional pick to trade back up to get a better pick at #2

If I like big corner who can also run (but not as fast as Peterson) I would trade down to take Jimmy Smith (he's currently injured) and another pick in similar fashion.

The point is in the last draft there wasn't a CB that I would rather have.
No, I still say I don't take McCourty over Jackson.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by Rey

Child Please.

Did you just go Ocho on me?

Originally Posted by Rey

Go back and read what I've said about KJ and other corners.

I know exactly what 76 is "trying to do" and I am not buying it.

All corners make mistakes. All corners get beat. Most rookie corners thrown into the fire have ugly moments.

But big time players make big time plays, or at least flash some playmaking ability. Kareem can be solid at times, but he does not make plays.

Now you can put all the stock you want to into playing the run well and making tackles, but Dunta did the same exact thing. If I had to choose, I'd rather have a corner who could cover very well but couldn't tackle rather than vice versa.

I agree with what you're saying. If we had a corner that can cover & make big time plays... I'd agree with you. Allen is not that guy. If I've got to chose between two guys that can't cover, one can tackle & the other can get an occasional INT, I'm going with the guy who can tackle.

Besides, I started watching guys like Kj & Mario because some weren't happy with their production as rookies & I wanted to know if these guys had what it takes to live up to their draft status.

Without question, I don't care who we had as corners last year, with the pass rush, safeties, & schemes we used, Nnamdi, Revis, & McCourty would look like Kj, Quin, & McCain.

So imo, when I look at Kj, no doubt in my mind he can play at the NFL level. Will he ever be a top 10 corner? Probably not. But he can play as a #2, no doubt in my mind. I believe I understand exactly why Wade is playing him so much. I think he is the future at #2 CB.

What I don't understand is why is Wade playing Allen at all? Wade wasn't part of last years debacle, he could bring Brandon Harris in to play that same role Allen is playing & he'd probably do as well. Then at least I (as a fan) would think he's got the best interest of the team... looking for that #2 CB, on his mind.

Originally Posted by Rey

Now, I don't like to judge players without taking their environment into consideration (pass rush, overall defensive success, key players around them), but despite whatever mistakes McCourty or Joe Haden made, they made plays.

& they had the benefit of a much better defense than what Kj had.... remember, we were making history.

Originally Posted by Rey

Also, I'm taking Peterson all day every day over KJ. In six games he has an INT and a return TD.

That's not the point, we never had the opportunity to take Petterson. Petterson is much more athletically gifted. At the same time, he's having the same struggles Kj has.. & that is the point.

Originally Posted by Rey

Who said that a rookie is supposed to come in and be shut down?

It gets difficult keeping individual posters straight when discussing something like this. If it wasn't you, there are plenty on this board expecting Kj to play like a 7 year vet..... but they don't expect Allen to. Strange if you ask me.

Originally Posted by Rey

You and 76 both need to pay attention because I have said it like a million times that getting beat is not something exclusive to KJ and that is not my problem with him.

He rarely gets his hands on balls (PD's or INT's) even though teams throw his way all the time and as a first round CB that is no bueno.

I get it. Your reasons for wanting to start Allen make perfect sense. If Allen was getting more playing time I would assume that would be the reason. I just don't agree with your assessment of Allen.

Originally Posted by Rey

Which brings me back to my original point: when all you do is point out screw ups by other players and explain away bad plays by "your guy" it makes your analysis less credible IMO. You are not presenting the full spectrum of what is going on.

And that is JMO on the subject.

But that's not all he's done.

He started talking about Kareem only. Then all these other names got brought into it. He showed examples of those guys... it's a very thorough thread.

[STEEL BLUE TEXANS]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

Asomugha had ZERO Int in his rookie campaign.

In fact, he didn't have an INT until his 50th game in the league!

Nnamdi was a safety in college making the position change to corner. He rarely played his first 2 seasons. His second season starting he had 8 INTs and from then on teams avoided throwing his way.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by STEEL BLUE TEXANS

Nhamdi was a safety in college making the position change to corner. He rarely played his first 2 seasons. His second season starting he had 8 INTs and from then on teams avoided throwing his way.

Thanks for the clarification about the conversion.

He still played in 15 games his first year and started one at CB.

He played in all 16 games in his second year and started seven.

He started all 16 games in his third year (2005).

In 06, he registered his first INT in the second game (49th game, not 50th).

Some journalist posted videos of his INTs in 2006; I had mentioned that before in a thread. There was either safety help or he was playing underneath coverage on all the INTs that were shown.

When I study the Raiders lat year, they were in cover 2 a lot.
Asomugha + safety = not somewhere a QB wants to go.

That he was a shut down CB that can cover half of the field by himself is a myth.

[STEEL BLUE TEXANS]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

2. No, I didn't leave out the PI call. Reread my posts.
Even though I feel that it was an iffy call.
I don't think a receiver cut back across a DB's face should get a PI call; if anything, it's probably should have been incidental contact.
If KJ had turned his head to the inside (he doesn't even have to look all the way back at the QB), I think the call could have easily gone the other way around.
A PI is when the CB impedes the receiver natural direction in the route.
Heck, if every time a CB trails and the receiver just has to stop or turn toward the receiver while slowing down so that the DB runs into him to get a PI call; they would have done it all day long!

KJ was on the receivers right shoulder. He then stumbles, reaches out and grabs the receiver and ends up on the receivers left shoulder. Donnie Avery didn't stop or turn anywhere.

[coon]

This issue is getting beaten to death. Personally i see it somewhere in between. Anyone who gets thrown in his first year after jumping a level in competition the way Kareem was will struggle. Especially if they are put on a defense with no help from the other levels. I think he is doing is job fine. 76 is right that he isn't nearly as bad as many on this board are saying. The precedent for Kareem being so bad has been set by this board and alot of people are piling on plays that were not his fault. The defense is one solid unit, every player on every level has to do there job or someone will look bad, it just so happens he has become our personal lightning rod. Rey your right in the he is not a play maker. Probably never will be he just doesn't seem to process the plays fast enough to react correctly. Maybe when the game slows down for him, and it's painfully obvious it hasn't he will. Some say he is too slow, not true. His technique is bad, his hips are almost always to tight, and to often he opens to the wrong shoulder, but these things are correctable. That being said i think being under Saban they should have been fixed by now and he may just never get it. I don't start Jason Allen, But unless he shows major improvement by the end of the year I don't just settle for Kareem

[STEEL BLUE TEXANS]

KJ on the receivers right shoulder



KJ stumbles and grabs Donnie Avery on the shoulderpad and waist to keep himself from falling



KJ ends up to the left of the receiver after regaining his balance



Donnie Avery didn't cut back across KJ's face.

[STEEL BLUE TEXANS]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

The receiver who beat Allen was #17 D. Williams.
The ball actually bounced off William's shoulder pad; it was not a good throw at all.

And this is a perfectly thrown ball