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Old 10-25-2011   #521
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
See, I don't understand why you feel the need to point out how much other players are sucking to try and prove a point about KJ.

None of that really matters as to whether or not KJ is a plus or minus on this team.
I think his point is that many people have unreastic expectations for CB's when they come out of college, it will take a while for us to find out if KJ is going to improve or not.

This thread has gone completely out of control.
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Old 10-25-2011   #522
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
76 has provided way more proof than anyone questioning his evaluations. What proof do you have of opposing QBs "sodomizing us" "while asking Kj to squeal like a pig boy"?

That has happened once, vs New Oreans & he hasn't been successfully picked on since.

Flacco didn't throw on him any more or completed any more passes on him than any of the other corners.

Hasselbeck threw on him 3 times during the game (if I remember right) none were completed.


Most likely, but that's part of the point.
He's improved. But everyone is so focused on him sucking that every mistake he makes or every time he gets beat everyone piles onto it. Meanwhile he has very quiet games.

I still think he should be starting over Allen because of this noted improvement. He's much more physical, he's a much better tackler, and his coverage has improved and he is younger.
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Old 10-25-2011   #523
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
See, I don't understand why you feel the need to point out how much other players are sucking to try and prove a point about KJ.

None of that really matters as to whether or not KJ is a plus or minus on this team.
In order to decide a player is a plus or minus you have to define a zero point and a frame of reference. Not sure how that can be argued. That isn't to jump into y'all's overall debate.
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Old 10-25-2011   #524
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
See, I don't understand why you feel the need to point out how much other players are sucking to try and prove a point about KJ.

None of that really matters as to whether or not KJ is a plus or minus on this team.
I agree with this.

I understand pointing to other rookie CBs to frame the comparison.... seems like some people expect Kj to be Nnamdi Asomugha straight out the box & that was never going to happen.

But i think 76Texan goes a little too far & berates those other players, which is as unfair to them as it is to Kj
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Old 10-25-2011   #525
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by silvrhand View Post
I think his point is that many people have unreastic expectations for CB's when they come out of college, it will take a while for us to find out if KJ is going to improve or not.

This thread has gone completely out of control.
I think it's going to take a while to see what Kj is going to be. But it's evident that he will get better. He's been playing well for a 2nd year corner & anyone who can't see that...... anyone who thinks it makes more sense to play Allen is jaded.
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Old 10-25-2011   #526
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by fiasco west View Post
He's improved. But everyone is so focused on him sucking that every mistake he makes or every time he gets beat everyone piles onto it. Meanwhile he has very quiet games.

I still think he should be starting over Allen because of this noted improvement. He's much more physical, he's a much better tackler, and his coverage has improved and he is younger.
Well said.
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Old 10-25-2011   #527
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Note to steelbtexan: P. Peterson still sucks!
Err, I mean, you'll have to wait some more before Peterson makes any real play out there!

Update, against the Steelers, he had no pass defended.
He gave up 5 catches of the 9-15yd variety.
He got called for a 14yd PI where he just ran into the receiver.
He was also called on an illegal use of the hand way past the 5yd limit.
He "might have" gotten away with it on a medium pass (somewhere around 32 yards.)
The pass was just long for Wallace to catch.

At least, he didn't give up a TD on a red zone play.
Wait, that was only because he put his elbow into Wallace rib and pushed him off slightly (more than slightly actually) as Wallace tried to pull in a one-handed catch over his head near the side line at the top of the EZ with the safety closing in. (This was with the ball on the Cards 20yd line).

On an attempt to stop a run to the outside, Peterson put his head down trying to take the runner off his legs instead of wrapping up. You might have guessed it: he missed and the runner was still inbound (the runner is nowhere near the sideline for a defender to try this tactic). The commentator agreed that it was poor tackling.

Did you have a chance to watch that game, Jay?
Yes I did,

The coverage thing doesn't bother me that bad. It's a learning on the job thing. PP may end up playing better at S. That's why the tackling thing bothers me so much. It's just taking the easy way out. He was a great tackler at LSU. He's got the Size/speed so he must just be lost at this point.

Hopefully he improves, it would be ashamed to see all of that talent go to waste.

BTW, did Marshall let Wallace go and he was supposed to have S help over the top. Or did Marshall just screw up on the long TD pass? IYO

Have you gotten the chance to check out Xavier Rhodes of Fla. St.? If so what do you think of him. We're dicussing him in the rm/BL/BB mock draft thread. I would love your input.
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Old 10-25-2011   #528
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

Thank you to all who understands my point(s).

Rey, I can't remember if you were among those who feel that the Texans should have drafted McCourty (in hindsight).

That group never had a problem bringing up McCourty to put down Kareem Jackson.
I felt that it was a fair point for them to raise the comparison; why shouldn't I be able to make the equivalent comparisons with Peterson and McCourty this year?

Again, I want to reiterate that I haven't criticized Allen at all this year.
I only described what happened there on that one play, that Allen wasn't credited for a pass defended officially.
What I observed coincides exactly with the official game book.
I'm not making up any stuff up to tear down Allen!
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Old 10-25-2011   #529
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
In order to decide a player is a plus or minus you have to define a zero point and a frame of reference. Not sure how that can be argued. That isn't to jump into y'all's overall debate.
I wasn't speaking from a technical standpoint...

But I don't see how looking at other players that are playing like crap helps to determine a 0 point.
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Old 10-25-2011   #530
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Thank you to all who understands my point(s).

Rey, I can't remember if you were among those who feel that the Texans should have drafted McCourty (in hindsight).

That group never had a problem bringing up McCourty to put down Kareem Jackson.
I felt that it was a fair point for them to raise the comparison; why shouldn't I be able to make the equivalent comparisons with Peterson and McCourty this year?

Again, I want to reiterate that I haven't criticized Allen at all this year.
I only described what happened there on that one play, that Allen wasn't credited for a pass defended officially.
What I observed coincides exactly with the official game book.
I'm not making up any stuff up to tear down Allen!
No, I wasn't a McCourty guy. I was a Dez Bryant guy.

But I was not upset with the KJ pick at all. I thought he had a chance to be a good player.
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Old 10-25-2011   #531
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Yes I did,

The coverage thing doesn't bother me that bad. It's a learning on the job thing. PP may end up playing better at S. That's why the tackling thing bothers me so much. It's just taking the easy way out. He was a great tackler at LSU. He's got the Size/speed so he must just be lost at this point.

Hopefully he improves, it would be ashamed to see all of that talent go to waste.

BTW, did Marshall let Wallace go and he was supposed to have S help over the top. Or did Marshall just screw up on the long TD pass? IYO

Have you gotten the chance to check out Xavier Rhodes of Fla. St.? If so what do you think of him. We're dicussing him in the rm/BL/BB mock draft thread. I would love your input.
Hey, now you can see how steep a learning curve can be when a rookie CB is put out there in the same position as a veteran CB.

And I mean, the Cards safeties didn't fail Peterson anywhere as much as the Texans' failed Jackson.


On the play that you mentioned, IMO, the safety played too far away from action.
The two deepest receivers were on Marshall's side (acutally all the routes were).
The safety should have shifted to his left sooner; he would have been in position to help Marshall. (He was really close, but no cigar!)
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Old 10-25-2011   #532
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by silvrhand View Post
I think his point is that many people have unreastic expectations for CB's when they come out of college, it will take a while for us to find out if KJ is going to improve or not.
KJ will improve. He has improved.

But that has nothing to do with whether or not he gives us a shot to be the better team on a game to game, season to season, play to play basis.
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Old 10-25-2011   #533
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
I wasn't speaking from a technical standpoint...

But I don't see how looking at other players that are playing like crap helps to determine a 0 point.
The zero point is "rookie CBs drafted in the first round".

(I had discussed some about Joe Haden just after the season; how he was started out slowly by the Browns; ie., nickel, sending him in on blitzes, playing him in under coverage to get his feet wet before working in the more difficult tasks.)
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Old 10-25-2011   #534
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
No, I wasn't a McCourty guy. I was a Dez Bryant guy.

But I was not upset with the KJ pick at all. I thought he had a chance to be a good player.
D'oh...... I'd definitely take Dez Bryant + Jason Allen + Brandon Harris in lieu of what we've got today.
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Old 10-25-2011   #535
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
KJ will improve. He has improved.

But that has nothing to do with whether or not he gives us a shot to be the better team on a game to game, season to season, play to play basis.
If this were Kj's rookie season I agree. I wouldn't have a problem moving him to nickel today, if we had a better corner on the team.

I do not believe Allen is that corner. Compared to Kj, yes, he's probably going to "make more play" as far as INTs go.

But tackles, passes defensed, run supporting defense, all the other plays that a corner has to make in an NFL game, Kj is so far ahead of Allen it's ridiculous for a 7th year vet.

Allen uses his speed better. Allen stays on top better. But that's it. I haven't seen either of them break on a ball & jump a route. I've only seen once that Allen hit a guy to prevent a catch. I've only seen Allen come up & get a tackle on run support once.

JMO
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Old 10-25-2011   #536
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by silvrhand View Post
I think his point is that many people have unreastic expectations for CB's when they come out of college, it will take a while for us to find out if KJ is going to improve or not.

This thread has gone completely out of control.
I think after 20+ games of him playing it's pretty obvious that he has glaring flaws in his game that cannot be coached up. Whether Jason Allen is a better option or not is practically irrelevant as both need to not be our CB2 moving forward.
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Old 10-25-2011   #537
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
I wasn't speaking from a technical standpoint...

But I don't see how looking at other players that are playing like crap helps to determine a 0 point.
I am not talking about going around to look at players who are playing like crap. I am talking about looking at what the middle of the league #2 CB plays like and using that as a reference point for plus vs. minus. There has to be a standard. You can't set the standard at Deion Sanders for the top 4 CB's. It isn't going to happen. You are lucky to get one. It would be great to have two JoJo's starting but it isn't realistic and you don't (shouldn't) judge your #2 against #1's although you always look to upgrade.
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Old 10-25-2011   #538
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

Random point, since we are speaking of tackling, no one mentioned that tackling seemed much much better this year in comparison with last year. I remember Texans missing tackles left and right. Our LBs are not whiffing them, and our dbs seem much better at wrapping up (except for Allen who often takes bad angles).
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Old 10-25-2011   #539
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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I am not talking about going around to look at players who are playing like crap. I am talking about looking at what the middle of the league #2 CB plays like and using that as a reference point for plus vs. minus. There has to be a standard. You can't set the standard at Deion Sanders for the top 4 CB's. It isn't going to happen. You are lucky to get one. It would be great to have two JoJo's starting but it isn't realistic and you don't (shouldn't) judge your #2 against #1's although you always look to upgrade.

Right, but that doesn't really have anything to do with what I was talking about...

Which was constantly looking at other player's faults to somehow make Kareem look better.
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Old 10-25-2011   #540
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
Right, but that doesn't really have anything to do with what I was talking about...

Which was constantly looking at other player's faults to somehow make Kareem look better.
You refuse to see the point while others get it.

Now if nobody sees my point, it would have been something else!
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