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Old 10-19-2011   #401
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
I read those posts earlier, as I said.

To me, when I look at Wade's playbook against this offensive formation, the way the defense lined up, it matches with cover 4 (which is slightly different from cover 8).
Everyone is in man, two safteys over the top. You can call it a cover 4 if you like and you may be right, but I see man coverage with two s over the top to double the wide outs or take the seam if the wr's cut off their routes. The wr at the top of the screen is doubled, all the linebackers are in man coverage. If the mlb plays his technique right, Manning doesn't come downhill and Flacco dumps it down to the Ray Rice in the flat.

There are many different ways to play your coverages. In classic cover 4 the cb's don't tend to hand off their players, so I don't see where you are so sure Jackson was not beat on the play as well. He has a full hip turn early in the sequence and is running full speed. I think we both agree that there are multiple breakdowns on the play.

In any case, I'm not trying to argue your breakdown (you asked me) or your love for KJ
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Old 10-19-2011   #402
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

What I observed is that KJ still has to divide his attention (watching the TE route).
Then he had to watch for the seam route as well as the corner route.

I watched Torrey Smith burned the Rams CB (Justin King - 4:31 speed at the combine - in 09 I think) not just on the fly route along the side line or the skinny post where he beat both the CB and the safety (these TDs probably can be seen on nfl.com highlights), but also on a wheel route (out and up) and a seam route where the QB Flacco put the ball just long (on both occasions).

- This is in respond to leebig who thinks that Smith can only run one or two simple routes.
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Old 10-19-2011   #403
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
... Cushing dropped back but failed to follow the TE.

No matter what, the SS Manning needs to read a little better.
As the QB made more than a 5-step drop, Manning should get back immediately (he was about a couple of steps late).

That is how I saw it.
I agree, this what I saw. It also agrees with Kubiak's statement that it wasn't Kareem's play.

I can't tell if KJ released from his man (to pick up the TE) before after the ball was in the air.
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Old 10-19-2011   #404
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by TejasTom View Post
I agree, this what I saw. It also agrees with Kubiak's statement that it wasn't Kareem's play.

I can't tell if KJ released from his man (to pick up the TE) before after the ball was in the air.
he didn't. He was sprinting back with a full hip turn and not looking back to help. I think 76 has the sequence if he can provide the link again.
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Old 10-19-2011   #405
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
Everyone is in man, two safteys over the top. You can call it a cover 4 if you like and you may be right, but I see man coverage with two s over the top to double the wide outs or take the seam if the wr's cut off their routes. The wr at the top of the screen is doubled, all the linebackers are in man coverage. If the mlb plays his technique right, Manning doesn't come downhill and Flacco dumps it down to the Ray Rice in the flat.

There are many different ways to play your coverages. In classic cover 4 the cb's don't tend to hand off their players, so I don't see where you are so sure Jackson was not beat on the play as well. He has a full hip turn early in the sequence and is running full speed. I think we both agree that there are multiple breakdowns on the play.

In any case, I'm not trying to argue your breakdown (you asked me) or your love for KJ
Oh, I've seen Wade run the inverted cover 2 (on one or both sides), but I don't think it makes sense here with the SAM Cushing already playing the strong hook.
Manning didn't even come downhill. Cushing dropped to right close to where Manning lined up originally.
Manning turned folowed the TE a few steps as the guy made his break, then realized (supposedly in cover 4) that he needs to get back deep.

It would also required KJ to get depth and more depth (especially against a fast receiver.)
If you put your DVR in slow motion, you can see that KJ didn't do this.

The fact that Kubiak said that "it wasn't even Jackson's play to make" (the post route) indicates to me that Jackson's primary tasks were the seam route, the go route and the corner route.

I think you need a stronger argument to go against those words of his.

Edit: You know I always consider your take very carefully!
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Old 10-19-2011   #406
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
he didn't. He was sprinting back with a full hip turn and not looking back to help. I think 76 has the sequence if he can provide the link again.
Jackson was looking back at the TE the whole time and as this guy made his cut to the outside.

In pattern matching, the CB has to be aware of the #2 receiver.

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Old 10-19-2011   #407
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Jackson was looking back at the TE the whole time and as this guy made his cut to the outside.

In pattern matching, the CB has to be aware of the #2 receiver.
If Jackson is supposed to pick up the TE then he failed miserably. You can't have it both ways. I think you are using a bunch of circular logic to be honest.
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Old 10-19-2011   #408
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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
I read those posts earlier, as I said.

To me, when I look at Wade's playbook against this offensive formation, the way the defense lined up, it matches with cover 4 (which is slightly different from cover 8).

Cover 4


Cover 8
That's not how defenses work.

If you can sit at home and tell what coverage we are running based on how we are lined up then we are in trouble.

Do you really think we are that basic?
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Old 10-19-2011   #409
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
That's not how defenses work.

If you can sit at home and tell what coverage we are running based on how we are lined up then we are in trouble.

Do you really think we are that basic?
those diagrams have one lb blizing, while everyone else was in zone. That's not what happened on that play. I'm getting out of the thread here. I think 76 is just trying too hard to show Jackson is a player.
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Old 10-20-2011   #410
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

21 pages defending Kareem Jackson.... Why?
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Old 10-20-2011   #411
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
If Jackson is supposed to pick up the TE then he failed miserably. You can't have it both ways. I think you are using a bunch of circular logic to be honest.
No, when the SS gets back deep, that's when the SCB gets off onto the out route.

In the playbook, it clearly states that the CB has to key on both the #1 and the #2.
Whoever threatens him deep, that's his main concern.

Now you want to fault him for getting off his secondary task to save a TD?

IT WASN't EVEN HIS PLAY TO MAKE.

I don't see how much clearer Kubiak can put it!
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Old 10-20-2011   #412
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rey View Post
That's not how defenses work.

If you can sit at home and tell what coverage we are running based on how we are lined up then we are in trouble.

Do you really think we are that basic?

I've already know that you can run a multitude of coverages out of a certain shell.

If it's so basic, why do I have to spend gazillions of hours reading diferent playbooks and defenses (with video examples on some) and try to match what happens on the playing field with theory and concept on other occasions.

I did say that on Boldin's 56yd catch, I can't be too positive about the coverage.

What you can try to tell me is what and how you think can apply to Kubiak's statement.

How is it that my analysis on this particular play doesn't match with theory?

Last edited by 76Texan; 10-20-2011 at 12:58 AM.
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Old 10-20-2011   #413
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
those diagrams have one lb blizing, while everyone else was in zone. That's not what happened on that play. I'm getting out of the thread here. I think 76 is just trying too hard to show Jackson is a player.
I just like to study plays, that's all.

The LB blitzing was the WILL Reed, which matches with the diagram.

The SAM Barwin and the MIKE Cushing were in zone match on the #2 and the #3.
The SAM took on the wide of the widest, which was the FB Leach.
The MiKE took the inside route.
The zones were only the first destinations.

Look at the sequence, the 3 LBs in coverage dropped into their zones first.
The most pronounced one was Barwin; he didn't jump on Leach until after he had dropped into his outside zone.
This way, if the TE runs a quick out to the flat, Barwin would have taken him on instead of the FB Leach.
If you follow the sequence tediously, you will see that Barwin looked back at the TE to make sure that he didn't run such a route.
If it was pure man, Barwin would never do that!!!

For the Mo, it was easy; his zone and his man match.
That's why it's called pattern matching (a zone that becomes man coverage quickly).

With Cushing, you can see that he was in zone (and forgot to match with his man, the #2).

If you say that Manning was supposed to be in man coverage on the TE, at least tell me what Cushing was supposed to do?

And what was Quin supposed to do as the FS?

Also, if Manning was supposed to be in "pure" man, he would have never gotten off the TE!

Last edited by 76Texan; 10-20-2011 at 01:29 AM.
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Old 10-20-2011   #414
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Carr Bombed View Post
21 pages defending Kareem Jackson.... Why?
It's pretty similar to the Chris Myers thread. 76 is more right than not. On this particular play, technically he's correct, but once the ball is snapped, you have to do what you've got to do. Manning screwed up, which changes Jackson's responsibilities.

We're playing that cover 4 to prevent a big play there. Jackson gave up a big play. He may have had help, but that doesn't exonerate him.

Lots of breakdowns on the right side of the field. Cushing, Manning & Jackson.

Take that 51 yarder out of the equation (the catch was questionable anyway) & Torrey Smith ends the night with 2 catches for 33 yards....... whoop!!
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Old 10-20-2011   #415
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
No, when the SS gets back deep, that's when the SCB gets off onto the out route.

In the playbook, it clearly states that the CB has to key on both the #1 and the #2.
Whoever threatens him deep, that's his main concern.

Now you want to fault him for getting off his secondary task to save a TD?

IT WASN't EVEN HIS PLAY TO MAKE.

I don't see how much clearer Kubiak can put it!
Torrey Smith was the deep threat. You just said that is the CBs main concern. He failed.
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Old 10-20-2011   #416
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by Carr Bombed View Post
21 pages defending Kareem Jackson.... Why?
Because if you say somebody doesn't suck long enough people will start to believe it.

Everything may not be KJ's fault. But he sure needs alot of help that apparently he never gets. LOL
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Old 10-20-2011   #417
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Everything may not be KJ's fault. But he sure needs alot of help that apparently he never gets. LOL
That's not true. Kj has been more good than bad since the season started. You didn't hear about him vs the Colts, or the Dolphins... even though the Dolphins put up 400 yards on McCourty & the Pats. You didn't see or hear from Kj in the New Orleans game outside of that one series in the 4th.

He had a knee injury & sat out against the Steelers. He wasn't 100% the following week & only suited up as an emergency relief vs Oakland. Jason Allen stepped in & you saw what you got there.

Versus Miami, he got picked on & beat up. Pittsburgh he made some plays, got an INT. Got another INT vs Oakland, but neither were because he was in "excellent" coverage. He overplayed both, staying on top of the receiver. The ball was overthrown & he went & got them. That's still better (as far as game changing plays on defense) than what Kj has done from that aspect, but as far as stopping receivers, Kj has been superior. Allen was picked on & gave up yards vs the Steelers, picked on & beat up vs Oakland, giving up lots of yards to Heyward-Bay & a TD.

Allen makes Kj look like a shutdown corner.

People need to forget about Kj's 2010 season, stop taking it personal that Smithiak didn't draft whoever you wanted them to draft, or whatever it is that makes them hate the man, because it isn't his play. In every game this year, he's played better than Dunta Robinson in his last two seasons here, but Dunta never got this kind of hate. Even after the pay-me-rick crap.
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Old 10-20-2011   #418
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

I dont hate KJ, he's just another below avg CB that Rick and Gary are letting play due to his draft status. KJ is just another sympton of what's wrong with the Texans organization.
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Old 10-20-2011   #419
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Torrey Smith was the deep threat. You just said that is the CBs main concern. He failed.
If you like to put it that way.
But you also want to keep in mind that the deep threat means first of all "the threat in his zone", then you can expand it further if you like.

I prefer Kubiak's statement:
"It wans't even his play to make".

It means he MAKES the play;
he didn't fail the play.

In another word, after he had to make the initial reads as required by coverage, he started reacting to the action on the field; he then went into the post to cover up for somebody's else Failure.

Similar to the thread about the refs, the same thing applies here.
The action on the field is fast.
If you expect a safety to be able to help out on the CB all the time, it's not gonna happen.
And when the safety comes over, usually what you can hope for is a tackle, not a pass break up, unless the safety has good position or the QB made a "not-so-good" throw.
In this case, one can think of KJ as a safety (or almost).
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Old 10-20-2011   #420
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Default Re: Kareem Jackson's plight.

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
I dont hate KJ, he's just another below avg CB that Rick and Gary are letting play due to his draft status. KJ is just another sympton of what's wrong with the Texans organization.
I know you rather have Patrick Peterson starting for us, right, Jay!?!
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